Do Audiophiles usually keep the gain of the digital source at around 80%?
My setup is:
A8 Eversolor DAC and streamer
McIntosh C12000 preamp
REL sub 810
Focal Sopra n1 speakers.
861 Moon amp
I keep my McIntosh preamp usually between 50-60% volume. Any higher would make the sound thin like.
For the Eversolo streamer (which I am enjoying quite a bit for the money), I keep between 75% -85% max gain. With older songs that are recorded at lower volume, I have it at 85%. But with songs that are recorded louders (mostly newer songs) it would cause some/slight clipping at that level so I to have lower the gain to about 75% max gain.
I saw that there was a max volume throughput option on the Eversolo, but when I try that I can’t really get the system as loud as I want it without clipping and distortion setting in early.
Is this normal for Audiophiles to keep the gain on the digital signal about 80%?
Wasn’t sure if this should go into digital forums or preamps since both are used here, so I posted here.
I have being used at present a SS Pre Amp which is the Prototype of a Pre Amp design being commission built for me. The EE has gave me the Option to add 13dB of Gain, of which I have been using to about 50% of what can be used. With a CD Source and to meet what I class as a preference, the Gain is usually between 25% - 50% with only a small selection CD's not having gain added. With the Vinyl Source no added gain is needed. |
Wow, this is interesting. If I have the ever solo volume at 100%, I can only get my preamp at about 15% loud before I start getting what I feel is a tiny bit of distortion. Some other people might call it something else. But, it feels like it's at a level where if it goes any higher it would damage the speakers because the sound is too strong. |
@dman777 Are you using the RCA or XLR outputs on the Eversolo? |
Hans touched on this 2 years ago. And Here is the followup video
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1) Does the Eversolo feed 🡢 the McIntosh preamp which feeds 🡢 the Moon amp? 2) One possibility is explained - here - @ 8 min. 48 sec. If so, use the RCA out instead of XLR out. |
+1 for 100% Only digital components meant to drive a power amp directly (no preamp needed) have a volume control. In most cases that digital volume control is cheap trash. The more you turn it down the worse it sounds, hence the advice to keep it at full volume all the time so it’s essentially not being used (remember these are attenuators, so the more they attenuate the sound the more impact on sound quality they have). The downside of keeping the VC at 100% when you do use a pre is that these components have a LOT of gain because, well, they’re designed to work without a pre! So, as you’ve observed, you need to turn your pre’s volume way down compared to other sources. If you’re going to use a good pre, which is highly recommended, then you’re going to control volume at the pre, so that upstream VCs are not needed; so, digital components that have one should be avoided. |
If the gain is applied in the digital domain, the digital calculations will be ’lossy’ because not all fractional numbers can be represented digitally by a finite number of bits. To give a decimal example, the fraction one-third requires an infinite number of decimal places to be represented exactly. If only a fixed number of places is available, there will be rounding errors. It is far worse if the calculations have to be done with whole numbers, as is common in digital audio! Now if your servant or robot is twiddling an analogue volume knob via a motor, this consideration does not apply. I find this scenario unlikely, although I have enjoyed Denon components with a remotely controlled volume knob. For what it is worth, the term gain only makes sense once the signal is analogue. By convention, digital conversion to analogue includes amplification to produce consumer line-level analogue outputs - about 1-Volt. Sneaky manufacturers like to lift this output level because when doing A / B comparisons, louder almost always sounds better. The corollary is that this can overload a pre-amplifier's input!
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I watch his videos, thanks. It seems to be that a -3db would be the way to avoid clipping. That's about 70% on the Eversolo volume I believe after asking Gemini AI. |
OP: You might want to revisit my previous post. According to these Eversolo 8 specifications - the XLR output is 4.2 volts. The RCA output is 2.1 volts. Hans says this difference in voltage may cause clipping, Cue up Hans’ video here - 8 min. 43 sec - 9 min. 29 sec. This is why RCA might be better than XLR for this particular issue. If using the RCA output remedies up the clipping issue, set the digital volume at 100% - as everybody suggests. |
your post is confusing. I own the eversolo DMPA6 and Mac gear as well as a Lumin P1 - which can also be used as a Pre Dac.
The Eversolo can be used as a pre amp with a volume control and can be hooked up directly to an amplifier. Use the volume on the eversolo just like you would on any other pre amp. It can also be run into a pre amp that is attached to your amps. In this set up up you can either have the eversolo volume locked and set as "fixed" in which case you use your pre amp volume knob to control volume, or you can leave the eversolo volume as variable and you'd be able to change volume both on the eversolo and or the pre amp (no real purpose to having it set up this way though). There's no distortion with the eversolo or any DAC pre amp when used even up to 100%. All you'll notice is that your main volume setting on your preamp may be set a little lower than usual to make the same volume- again, with no distortion. |
@steakster wouldn't it be better to use the XLR for the better quality and use the -3db trick? |
@saugertiesbob This not correct. The Eversolo doesn't really have a preamp function, it only has digital volume control, you need analog volume control in order to be considered a preamp, and even then it would only be a passive device. You absolutely need to run the Eversolo at 100% with pass through volume control to extract maximum sound quality.
I don't understand why you have clipping, distortion issues in the first place. I've never had an issue with gain using XLR and 100% volume with chip or R2R dacs, this with active pre with dual transformer volume control. That Mac sure must be sensitive to gain to have that issue, not good. |
Don't mess around in the digital domain, set it at 100% and forget it. Switch to RCA cables, I seriously doubt you'll hear any degradation of quality. Sounds to me like you're over driving your speakers. As an added bonus the volume control on the Mac will have more latitude of movement. In other words, you'll have to move the knob further, so you get a finer adjustment. Win-Win. Regards, barts |
@dman777 Your digital source with balanced out has 4.2V output, your preamp 15 dB gain, and your amp is 1.4V sensitive which translates to 31 dB gain. Quite simply you have too much gain and as a result need to find a way to attenuate that gain. As @barts mentioned using the RCA outputs on the digital source(2V output) and possibly throughout the chain may be the solution. It would be ideal to run the volume on the digital source wide open (100%) and then be able to have more control over the preamps volume control. |
Paul McGowen made a similar point (-3dB attenuation at the DAC) in his June 19, 2025 "Ask Paul" video. Also, Dmann777 introduced the intriguing idea of whether this might be an XLR vs. RCA cable question. A decade ago, Mark O’Brian at Rogue Audio suggested to me that under certain circumstances using RCA outputs rather than XLR might be better. More recently, Galen Gareis of Iconoclast Cables was clear in an Iconoclast forum that IF there was no noise or hum and no more than 3-5’ cable lengths, RCA cables are the way to go based on science. I wonder if the digital clipping being discussed is another reason. I am not a tech, so I hope others -smarter than I about this- will jump in. |
No. XLR is not automatically better than RCA. Many uber-expensive components have RCA only. The talented engineers designed the circuitry that way on purpose. (Example) Each brand has its own design philosophy. - - - There’s plenty of confusion about: - Analog: RCA - Single-Ended vs XLR - Fully-balanced. - Digital: RCA - S/PDIF (75 ohm) vs XLR - AES/EBU (110 ohm). The above are discussed thoroughly in the Audiogon archives. - - - Bottom line: Get rid of distortion. Otherwise, it's not high fidelity. |
The answer for me, it depends on the system synergy and the Voltage drive of the pre-amp to power-amp. Using my LTA preamp, when connected to the XA-25 driving the Falcon Gold Badge, it's normally at 50%, but when I have the X150.5 with a voltage driver pre, that sets the volume to 40%. BUT I have never noticed the sound getting "thin" as the volume setting is increased. To me it EVERYTHING gets louder until my ears cannot take it anymore. As expected, if the recording is bad (for all the wrong reasons) YMMV. but a good recording, be it streaming or Vinyl, the settings above is my DeFacto standard, sometimes, I would pop it up another 20 to 30 DB to just my blood pressure up :)
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In most instances the DAC has sufficient gain and sufficiently low impedance to drive the power amp through a pot. InnuOS has the server recommended at 100% which has nothing to do with the question. It is the DAC’s output section that matters. BTW: absent serious but rare impedance mismatches all that a pre adds is more distortion/ colouring. |
It sounds like your experience may be limited to budget preamps. I would advise auditioning high-end units. An excellent, thoughtfully chosen pre that synergizes well with your system has infinitely more impact on sound quality than $20,000 worth of tweaks. |
ReplayGain in Eversolo, WiiM or other streamers is commonly implemented via metadata (i.e., data about the audio data), not through destructive or lossy digital processing. It works by analyzing the audio file and storing the recommended gain and peak levels as metadata tags. A compatible player then reads this metadata and adjusts the playback volume accordingly. The original audio data remains intact. |
@drmuso , CD standard calls for 2 V ouput from RCA, HDCD standard calls for 2.2 V output from RCA. Balanced XLR ouput doubles that. Depending on the DAC's bit count,voltage and impedance outputs, included volume control, available switching capabilities, and the amplifiers input impedance and input sensitivity (for which there doesn't seem to have followed standards) one might be able to forgo the line stage of a preamp. |
Care to offer a texhnical explanation? Is the pre inventing stuff that wasn’t transferred from the DAC? My argument is based on the fact that at a given output voltage and impedance of the DAC all you need is an attenuator. Any additional circuit will by definition add distortion or additional noise components. |
This is absolutely incorrect statements. A lot of misinformation floating here and people need to do their homework before writing... The DMP-A8 has a fully balanced analog preamplifier section complete with R2R volume control and a pair each of RCA and XLR inputs. That makes it a more complete no-compromise integrated solution in which users just add power amp or active speakers and control everything from the Eversolo itself, with no outboard preamplifier needed. In addition, more and more players like Wiim Ultra use 32 bit for digital volume control. Unless you attenuate volume more than, say, 50dB, you are free of negative consequence of bit-depth truncation for high-rez music listening. There are more than enough headroom to control volume digitally with no audible degradation even down to very low levels. |
There are two things here. 1. DACs capable of directly driving power amps obviously incorporate some kind of line stage (preamp) circuitry, allowing them to output the voltage required to do so. Without it, they wouldn't be able to drive a power amp any more than a turntable or a CD player can. Obviously, the quality of that preamp section will vary from one DAC to another. 2. The position that preamps are obsolete and do nothing other than creating distortions is commonly shared amongst SINAD fanboys on ASR. Audiophiles, however, almost universally agree that a high-end pre is an indispensable part of a well-thought out system. If my limited experience in the matter is worth anything, I drove my monoblock amps with a DAC for several weeks while I was refurbishing my Krell pre. When the pre was returned to service, and the DAC moved behind it where it belongs, the sound quality improvement was very much significant. I'm in the camp of those who believe that a great pre is a necessity. I also believe that a system's sound signature should be determined by the pre + amps + speakers system core, and that digital sources have no role to play in it. Just be neutral. You know what they say about too many cooks in the kitchen.
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You don’t necessarily need a preamp, and I don’t wish to be contentious on this subject. However, a DAC with a well-designed gain stage—like the discrete Class A output stage in Harmony Micro DAC—can drive an amplifier beautifully. I used to be in the preamp camp for a while, but after getting a quality DAC like this, I’m switching back to the “no preamp is the best preamp” camp. Inserting a good preamp in the chain can often sweeten the sound and augment the soundstage, but I also notice a slight loss in dynamics. I have actually mitigated that through the source by adding a DDC and good cabling. I believe the source dominates the quality of the signal chain, rather than the backend. This may contradict your statement, but I am simply sharing my experience. |
