I’m not saying I don’t like my Dave DAC. Unfortunately the nature of this hobby is to want to go to the next level. If I can find a DAC in my price range that's a little more 3-dimensional and has wider soundstage I would be happy.
Enough is Enough
I've been looking at changing my DAC. I was considering Lampizator, Playback Designs, and Ideon. Recently a dealer basically told me(with the exception of my subwoofer and music server) my system sucks. He went on to say, I should sell my amps, preamp, DAC, speakers, and start all over! I've owned several different speakers, amplifiers, and DACs. I've attended shows and several different dealers show rooms. In fact, I directly compared one of the amplifiers the dealer recommended to a Rowland 625 S2 amplifier and preferred the 625 S2. I didn't build my system in a vacuum. I determined what I wanted to spend, listened and purchase what I preferred. I've been in sales and submit it would have been better to recommend a DAC that would improve my system. So now I say, maybe enough is enough; because no matter what I have some dealer will tell me it's crap and I have to start over.
98 responses Add your response
OP, what is it about the Chord Dave you don’t like? Do you use the ancillary M Scaler? The Dave is highly resolving and does so much right. I’m not saying you should like it. Just curious about what’s not working for you. it sounds like you might like tons of detail in your DAC. But I could be wrong. I just picked up a LTA Aero and am enamored. It might be the opposite though of what you’re looking for. |
drmuso,"From what I've heard from several YouTube reviewers I respect, the Chord Dave is a very detailed DAC." I think we have to remember it's a system. In my system the Chord Dave isn't as detailed as the DCS Rossini APEX. Every song sounds different in my system based on how it was recorded...some songs sound detailed, some sound laid back, and some sound fantastic. Depending on the system, a DAC or any component can sound very different. |
I agree with others that that one dealer sounds like a jerk. I've not run into that with the dealers I've talked with (mostly West Coast), but I've mostly been buying online for a long time. From what I've heard from several YouTube reviewers I respect, the Chord Dave is a very detailed DAC. I don't know if you can have that and also have a natural, "musical" presentation. You might want to consider the Denafrips or other R2R DACs that strive to sound more like analog. I'm getting the Denafrips Venus 15th on Monday, which as audioman58 says above, is essentially like the former Terminator at a lower price. I also considered the Holo DACs, but they wouldn't allow for 1024k DSD playback of my SACDs, if I understand them correctly. They would be another to consider if you don't care about highest-resolution playback of SACDs. |
You really should try the Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC, one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said that the 10th anniversary DAC was every bit as analog sounding, on that review I decided to try it and boy he was not wrong most analog sounding DAC I've had in my system and the bonuses they give you a 30-day trial period if you don't like it you could send it back and get your money back, I obviously did not, It's that good. and this is your friend in Canada Chris telling you that. |
Why don’t you state what your Audio system contains and maybe myself or others maybe suggest something, synergistic not it all depends what exactly you are looking to improve and $$ how much to spend .. I have been into Audio 40+ years owned a Audio store for a decade spent more then a nice home on Audio and now I am semi retired I now try to get the most out of my budget for less then 1/2 of my old $100 k + system , now I am using the latest technologies to be my guide , in amplifiers I am ready to get the new Final product from class D Audio their GanFet transistor Class D amp mono blocks total different ball game . like a stun gun small but packs a punch each Ganfet 90:amps x4 in just mono block ,dynamic great control very detailed neutral but not bright it just gets out of the way , I had mine tweaked with all Furutech connectors Hifi tuning fuses it comes stock with WBT connectors , 6 lbs each 300 wpc into 4 ohms 5000+ watt peaks for under $2500, a true find in 2 weeks starts production can’t wait I had the prototype.. I sell Denafrip digital and excellent quality ,build for your Buck and competes well with Anythung in its price the New Gen15 clsss I am very happy with ,the 12th not so much so . Yes there is much better out there I don’t have $20k just for my dac. My new Innuos Zenith Mk3 is excellent 3- LPS power supplies nice Teac cd ripper ,SS drive great Sense app interface and very intuitive and well thought out total vibration treatment throughout even their feet , hospital grade input filter and isolation transformers for the streamer and lan input as well as the output to the dac . Tubulus my go to Digital cables v throughout and fair priced . And use a LPS power supply from your router- modem combo it truly lowers your noise floor alot , That $5 wall wart just adds noise to your system , Linear Tube Audio best LPS by a Mile for $700: on Audiogon . try it your like it !!
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I had 1/2 dozen hi end dealers in around a big city I lived in. A bunch of us were part of an audio club that met 1 or 2 times a month listening to people’s setup as well as finding new artists/groups. On many occasions, at 10pm on my way home, I would stop off a this large record/cd new/used dealer and would buy a handful of discs/albums of new people we just listened to. 1 hi end dealer told 1 of our club members to get out of his shop because the owner said you’re not going to buy anything anyway. We all stopped shopping there. Pretty rude. The room is the most important piece of the audio puzzle, that includes sizing the room and treating it. When building a couple custom houses, I built a room within a room to get the right golden size which was a big expense. The room will not perform miracles, a Sony/pioneer system will still sound like a Sony/pioneer, but a well thought out room will allow you to get the best sound quality your components will allow, where a bad room, your $100k system might sound like a Sony/pioneer system. Then after the room, its system synergy. This can be speaker/amp pairing, preamp/amp pairing, and then cable pairing. For example, when you see B&W speakers at the dealer or at a show, most of the time you will see them teamed up with warmer sounding amps from McIntosh or Classe. Or you wouldn’t buy a 5 watt SET amp with 83 db speakers.
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How can i became glad with 100 bucks speakers i used to hate and put aside for 12 years? Because i used acoustics basic to improve them ... Now they reach their optimal level which is unknown to most people owning them as i was for 12 years.. I only used them again when i had no other choice in my last house... But now i was ready after hundred of acoustics experiments in my first dedicated room... You can think that i am deaf... if you own very costly speakers know that i dont claim that my low cost speakers beat yours... I only claim that you dont know what your costly speakers are capable of in a non controlled room with non controlled gear... Before upgrading learn how to embed optimally what you already own and be surprized... |
Congratulations for your room upgrade for sure! You will be amazed ...
The problem when i spoke about acoustics knowledge is people think merely about the room... But i spoke about conceptual basic acoustics applied even on speakers design...not about room panels.. I used "a mechanical room equalizer" made of many tubes of various proportion located at the right spot... I modified my speakers which punch way above their price...With tubular set of various tubes extending from the inside to 3 feet outside in some case. I use tube to focuss the tweeter wave... etc Acoustics and psycho-acoustics is about understanding what is going between brain/ears/speakers/room... Audio is acoustic mainly not about consumers spending money on " better" gear... We cannot know what is worst or better nor what is optimal in a non controlled speakers/room for specific ears/brain...
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Dealers even the honest one cannot say the truth because they ignore it themselves in most case. What matters in a market where there is gear pieces at all price of very good design as in the actual market it is not buying an upgrade piece, it is first and last : ---Synergy first, ---Embeddings mechanical and electrical and especially of acoustical controls of the working system pieces /room. Before buying anything to upgrade... If you say that to a customer displeased with his system/room and who want to upgrade ,will he buy a new piece ? It is why i discover this truth alone , pieces by pieces after experiments with a system/room... I verified it 2 times in 2 completely different room and system... Gear matter way less than basic mechanical,electrical and acoustical, especially acoustical knowledge... System price means almost nothing nowadays , save extreme case as low cost one and very costly one and in some cases not all the time. my low cost system will make many 10 or 15 times more costlier one shame. Acoustics ( and basic knowledge) rules audio. Period.
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90% of audio dealers are the equivalent of car salesmen - they will say anything they have to in order to induce you to buy something. One local one I used to go to was always touting a particular brand that they represented, saying that nothing sounded quite as good. When I went back there after a year or so, I found that they had lost that line and were selling different gear. They asked what I was using and then denigrated the same brand that they had been praising before they lost it. When I pointed that out to them, they started tripping over their own feet/tongues trying to dig themselves out of their pile of BS and I left, having told them that I wouldn't be coming in again. Finding the 10% that are actually pleased when they find you what you need is hard, but worth it. |
You have an awesome space that's perfect for relaxation and looks to be a very nice system. I had a similar experience, a girl I dated Felt no romantic attraction to me so I gave up on dating. The same holds true with your dealer experience. Maybe you can find a way to recover from your bad experience. I am still haunted. |
This hobby is weird. It is very easy to look at the next purchase, another mod, update, etc. and forget that what you ALREADY own is excellent. Maybe you should sit tight. The next product, next upgrade, etc. are always interesting but maybe what you have now sounds terrific. It feels great to just enjoy what you already own. Just a thought. |
sns, I understand your post. I don't feel the need to prove anything to a dealer or anyone about my system. I know the dealer never heard my system. Even if he did and didn't like it, it's no big deal to me. Building an audio "system' is personal and very subjective. To be honest, when I first started in this hobby, I was concerned about what others thought about my system. I wanted to own certain components for the wrong reasons. As I grew in this hobby I've learned to trust my own ears. My wife has a lot of input about what I purchase. She hears better than I do and is usually right with her analysis. |
Hope it works out for ya... I bought the ACDA carbon panels, as is from them. For diffusion, i went the diy route and followed their formula (formula, wood, saw, glue, nails, garage, saved some cash). You can see what they suggest for your room. With your room size and a few of these acdas in there, taking care of the 'room resolution' bottleneck.. you're in for something you never heard at any show or anywhere...There's nothing wrong with being curious about different gear, different flavors. But, once you address the above mentioned and create the right foundation, you won't be 'missing' anything with your existing gear (diving into rabbit holes). I believe their core market is still pro, upper echelon studios, etc...but, it seems more audiophiles have caught on to it in recent times.
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Per @mitch2 ’s excellent six DAC review thread, maybe a demo of Mojo or Merason would be worth a shot. |
Took me a very long time to trust dealers again. The second brick n mortar the salesman pushed for a budget then tried to hard sell me a meh sounding system. Luckily the first store had GoldenEar Tritons with Parasound electronics so I knew what a decent system sounds like. Spent many years on my own researching online/magazines and demoing gear at brink n mortar/audio shows to build my analog+digital chains. Only recently that I found a dealer I can trust aka meet my needs vs making the sale - a shout out to Chris Thornton at Artisan Fidelity |
terenthia, Listening to the DCS Rossini Apex made me realize that there are DACs that do things that I prefer over the Dave. Like I’ve stated, unfortunately the Rossini Apex was too bright in my system, but the soundstage, retrieval of details, and a more 3-dimensional soundstage could easily be heard between the Dave and Rossini Apex. I'm not talking night and day differences, but easily discernible differences. I don’t know what I don’t know, so I try to listen to different components in my system to understand what a particular component is doing vs something else. I have zero desire to change any other component in my system and honestly can live happily with the Dave.
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Of course dealers are in the business to make money. In sales your learn A,B,C(always be closing)...I taught Professional Selling Skills many years ago. I told my trainees to be honest with people, always perpetuate, think longterm, and treat people like you want to be treated. People's financial situations often change over time. When you treated people right they usually become long term customers. When you mistreat customers, not only do you loose a sell, you loose future sells. |
Dealers are in business to make money. Each salesperson has their own tactics, and some are more pressured to make a sale. You are looking, and they are selling. More industry experienced shop owners and sales people might have handled this differently. If they don't know how to start by helping you to optimize your existing system, there are plenty of other dealers who can help you with that. |
My experience with dealers has been similar some stated above. Further my situation is much like the guy in Australia...no decent dealers locally or within an hour or two. Every place I have been in recent experience has been disappointing both for the lack of knowledge and tact of the salesperson or the willingness to show something more than a passing interest in meeting my need at the time. So consequently, I have sworn off dealers completely and will only buy direct after reading and trying to understand the differences in potential choices and choose what seems right for me. Not an easy task to be sure, but it beats the expense of running around to dealers hours away from home who don't give S**t whether you buy something appropriate for your needs/wants or not. Indifference to the customer is a huge turnoff. The inability of the salesperson to have at least an equivalent knowledge of audio and satisfy what I need with a suitable recommendation is frustrating and a complete waste of my time. I refuse to play that game anymore. I'm done with dealers. |
Ask yourself two simple questions. Did you build your system to please yourself or to please others? Are you happy with the result? If the answers are 'yourself' and 'yes', why would you care what others think of your system, especially someone who has never even heard your system? Only an ignorant blowhard would make such an asinine judgement. |
Can't help on DAC choices, but would like to share a couple of experiences with salespeople! By way of background, I live in Canberra, have lived in Melbourne, and visit Sydney a lot. In Australia, distance is usually measured in driving-hours and these places are 3, 7 and 10 hours apart. One day in Canberra, my trusted universal disk player failed and I only had a couple of spare hours to find a replacement. There are really only a couple of dealers worthy of the name. I told the first I was looking for a universal player that could handle SACDs. He said "SACDs are no good, don't bother with them" and pushed vinyl. I watched him demo some electro-techno noise, getting him a cheap speaker sale. I did not bother to tell him I had 70 or so SACDs in my motorhome, and hundreds more at home. The second dealership asked me about my setup, and said they had just got the new Reavon players which looked like Oppo clones. I'd never heard of Reavon, but walked out with one. I was in a hurry! There are a couple of world class dealers in Sydney. One let me trial Krell gear on a full refund basis, even though I lived in Melbourne at the time. Recently they had a trade-in offer on Sonus faber where the full price you had paid on your trade-ins would be refunded. I called in to see what the gotcha might be. OK, the new speakers had to be at least 2.5 times the original price of the trade-ins, which in my case were Quad ESL-2905 electrostatics. I asked if I could listen to some candidates, even though they were outside my price range. Nothing was too much trouble. On my way out, I mentioned that I was really looking for some cheap speakers like KEF LS50s as standbys while I repaired my Quads. The dealer does not sell Quad, nor KEF but mentioned that he had just traded a pair of KEF Reference 1s on the Sonus faber offer! Next day I auditioned KEF and other speakers at another dealership, who asked me absolutely nothing about me or my system, I phoned my original dealer to see if I could hear the Reference 1s. When I got there, they were out of their boxes, properly positioned and the music I audition with was already cued on the streamer. After a few minutes I said it was a pity they had to take them out of the boxes - sold! In many ways they are better than the Quads, so I think this was a win-win. A good salesperson will ask questions to find out what his prospect really needs, and a good prospect will help by being open and honest in his answers. I hope I am not being sexist here but there seem to be very few hi-fi sales ladies, or female buyers. When my partner goes looking for hi-fi with me, I have a hell of a job persuading salespeople that she is their prospect! In fact, one dealer won't give me a price anymore because she bought a complete system elsewhere. The dealer assumed she was a price shopper, but she paid much more to get good service on the same items. Come to think of it, she bought from a female! |
audiojacks, I currently use a Chord Dave DAC. Prior to the Dave I had a PS Audio Directstream, Bricasti M1 SE, Jeff Rowland Aeris, and a Rockna Signature DAC. I prefer the Dave to the aforementioned DACs. Hearing the DCS Rossini APEX in my system made me want to pursue changing DACs. I had a JR 625 S2, but currently use JR 735s with the Corus preamp. I'm considering changing my DAC and nothing else. |
I would recommend you listen to a Goldnote DS1000, which runs “only” $8k. I have a DS10, and a good friend of mine had a DCS Bartok (not Apex). We did head-to-head listening tests. With the optional external power supply, I preferred my Goldnote to his DCS - more midrange magic, and at less than half the price. There are a number of Goldnote dealers in Texas. Another interesting choice is a Simaudio 681 at $12k; again, more flesh on bones than dcs imho. |
@ricred1 , Well, considering where everything’s at with your 2 channel gear you are pretty much stuck there.. unless, you get a li’l more adventurous and get a BACCH processor from Theortica Applied Physics. You may never know what it feels like to get launched inside a recording until you have something like BACCH in the chain (for 2 channel audio, that is, multichannel’s a different story). Otherwise, you could keep swapping dacs, amps, cables, etc forever... with no quantum leap, it is just another case of being stuck in the same watering hole comparing notes with the same ol’ guys who are stuck there as well...(thinking y’all heard this or that). Further, If you need to know about the kind of room treatment that gets you notches further in a dedicated room like yours (something you could strive towards in the longer term), it isn’t cheap or easy to do...(a bit cheaper if you’re diy savvy though). Here’s one if you’re NOT a diy kinda guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-ydC9IB0G8 Here’s another if you are a diy kinda guy. https://youtu.be/tKWAI21G0bc?si=Q7GARnEkHvC26dJ7 Hope that helps.
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As stated by @rbstehno
Simply that. If you must visit a dealer, look, listen, and then arrange an audition in your system. Some dealers are knowledgeable and may share interesting observations but, at the end of the day, your opinion is the only one that counts. |
Man, that is pure insanity.
I’ve been a record store owner for a very long time, and have on again, off again, been an audio dealer, and we are currently making a strong play to get very heavy into Hi-Fi. I have VERY often told people the exact opposite. Get to know your system, and upgrade slowly. Then, each change you make will be just as impactful as swapping an entire rig out. You know that feeling you get when you get a new piece of kit and you get to rediscover your entire record collection all over again? Why wouldn’t you want to do that over and over again? Isn’t that part of the fun? Morrison @ Hardcore Hi-Fi
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Slightly off topic, but related. I had a tv calibrator who I had used twice before refuse to calibrate my projector because I was using a Yamaha surround processor and amp. Related to that, I was in the market to replace my front main speakers and another dealer told me that my Yamaha gear was garbage and that I needed to change out my hardware. |
Sorry for any misunderstanding, but I didn’t ask for the dealers opinion about my system. I let my wife’s ears(she hears better than me and is honest about what she hears), my ears, and how much I want to spend determine what to purchase. I usually listen to components in my system, but the dealer I usually buy from only carries DCS and Chord. DCS doesn’t work in my system, based on my preference. A friend recommended I try to get a home audition for the Ideon ION DAC. That’s why I reached out to this particular dealer. I won’t post the dealers name, because there’s no value in it to me. I honestly posted my experience to highlight how some dealers behave. My hope is "we" all learn to use our own ears to decide what to purchase and not be shamed for not owning what some dealer says we should own. |
Well I went onto your profile and had a look at your system. If your dealer think it sucks then I think they might have to invent some new words to describe mine.
I wish I had a system as wonderful as yours. Maybe mention the name of this trash delaer on this forum. They deserve to be shamed! Then find a new dealer. |
In many decades, I have been at a couple of dealers that were any good. Most of them will tell you that their stuff is the best, even here on agon. I will never ask a dealer for their recommendation because I know what they will say. You need to trust your own ears and audition a component in your system in your room |
