PrimaLuna EVO 400 v Cary SLI-100
I've never owned anything other than solid state but I am increasingly intrigued with tubes. Thinking of "investing" $5K or so in an all-tube integrated to (at least initially) drive my Klipsch Heresys. Any thoughts on these two choices? Is there another choice in this range?
Rogue Audio Dark Integrated (about 100WPC) I also like any number of Line Magnetic integrated amps. I have the 216i and also have the non dark version of the Rogue (Atlas Magnum III). I have heard another Cary model and for some reason did not connect with the sound. I still think Cary makes fine tube amps. I also heard a Primaluna integrated and felt the same way. I think the key is to find a way to listen to these brands. BTW tubes are intoxicating. You have been warned... (hahah) |
A great idea. I slowly moved into tubes over the decades as I upgraded my systems. I wish that I had done it faster.
Primaluna will be more neutral and the Cary warmer, more tubelike and musical. I would recommend listening to an Audio Research I-50 before you buy. Incredibly musical and natural sounding with much more rhythm and pace than the two you are considering or other recommendations. This amp produces music. |
Hear essentially the same performance as the PL EVO 400 and save a considerable amount off cash by looking at the Dialogue HP- previous generation. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbb2ga-primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated-tube The money saved can be used for an upgraded power cord and replacing the 2 innermost preamp tubes with NOS, which are the "money" slots. Without the 2 upgrades you get 90% of the EVO400. Plenty of positive user reviews and it will drive your Heresys as intended. PL build/features and value win over the Cary. Sure Cary SLI is a nice piece, made in USA. That's about it. Longtime PL user.
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Fantastic, thank you for the views and suggestions, super helpful. What I see so far as worth checking out, and I will seek them out at AXPONA in April (Chicago): PrimaLuna EVO 300/400, or consider the previous gen, Dialogue More suggestions, and cautions, welcome! |
IMO, the EVO 400 is overkill with the Klipsch. The EVO 300 a much better choice. Half the power tubes at replacement time, more than enough power, etc.. I wanted to buy the 300 but chose a Rogue Cronos III instead (for Forte 4s). The Rogue is a fantastic bargain (nice fit-and-finish, headphone jack, phono preamp, Triode switch) but it doesn't accommodate EL34 tubes. EL34s are the preferred tubes for low-to-mid power amps, for many people. The EVO 300 was $1500 more than the Rogue. |
I second dweller’s suggestion that the Evo 400 has more power than you’ll need for the Heresy speakers. The Evo 300 with a nice quad of KT-88s would offer plenty of power and save you the additional cost of the 400 and running cost of 8 power tubes. Since this is your first tube amp, the PrimaLuna offers ease of ownership with auto-bias, bad tube indicator, and varied tube compatibility. It’s a painless transition from solid state. The bad tube indicator is especially handy given the state of current production tubes. In contrast, The Audio Research I50 amp mentioned earlier is a fine looking unit, but tube bias has to be set by a technician (internally) and not exactly user friendly. For what it’s worth, I’ve had great luck with the Apos Ray Select KT-88 tubes. |
I’m not sure about the Cary, but even though they use tubes, Prima Luna is maybe the most solid state sounding line I have ever heard. What I have heard was using the tubes that came with the units, so tube rolling might help, but if you’re looking for that tube sound, I’d start looking at pretty much any other brand that’s in your price range. I used to have Audio Research and it was grand, in fact I still have a SP-9 MK2 in my downstairs system and while it is a hybrid, but it still makes me smile. |
Yeah, how about running neither of these specific amps mentioned. An acquaintance I met designed the SLI-100 for Cary Audio with KT150s. Was the very last amp he designed before he departed the company. We talked about it some when he wrapped up that design. Appears it still designed to run KT150s. Look at the spec, other tubes are not listed. However the little brother amp can run other tubes. Gives more options to you. Look up SLI-80 and SLI-80HS both. The SLI-80HS is still available, and still lists compatibility with all of these, 4 – KT88 Output Tubes (or 6550, EL34, 6CA7, KT77, KT90, KT120). More flexible. As an owner of mono amps designed to run only KT150s, I will say my former SLI-80 integrated was a fun little integrated, and I enjoyed rolling tubes and upgraded caps in it. Sounded wonderful with the right speaker and tube pairing. I dont think you’d realize a benefit running the SLI-100 with KT150s if you want an older type of "tube" sound. Getting KT150s to sound like KT88s or EL34/KT77s, is not quite the same type of sound. Since you own Hersey speakers, I felt comfortable replying. Went through all of this with a friend and his iterations of amps with Herseys. If you don’t buy a PrimaLuna, and like the Cary integrateds, I’ll share this. A buddy of mine owned Hersey 2,3,4s and still has the H4s how. He’s run his H4s with many tubes, lower and higher power tubes. All of these. 2A3, 45, 807s, 6L6s, EL34, 300B, and KT88s, KT77, and other output tubes prior on his Hersey H2s, H3s. He taught me some about KT77s years back. I shared this with others who like them too, and many still using KT77s today as their go-to tube for music listening time. If you keep your solid state amp, and want a tube amp too, you could go with a Cary SLI-80 or SLI-80HS integrated and use KT77 output tubes in it for a rewarding sound. Others here with SLI-80 integrateds, or KT77 tube fans might chime in here. Photo: Look what’s sitting over there on the back wall, Hersey. others on the Cary site, old show/showroom photos, Forte’ paired with SLI-80.
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+1 Cary Audio. Look at CAD 300SEI. Single Ended Triode Class A, full on tube experience for your Heresys. Upgrade the 300b to Gold Lion’s, and some nice NOS 6SN7s, Tung-Sol, Sylvania or RCA. Rated at 15 wpc but probably only outputs 3-5 wpc at normal listening levels. I have the high output LX rated at 20 wpc paired with Forte IIIs and KR 300b’s, simply sublime! SLI-80HS is a great amp, more versatile tube options as @decooney notes above, but is a push/pull Class AB design with more power output. Rated at 40 wpc in Triode mode and 80 wpc in Ultra Linear, a lot of juice for Klipsch. A lower power SET Class A will give you a more midrange centric tube experience. Both designed by Cary Audio founder Dennis Had, a true pioneer in bringing tube amps back from the SS era. I have one of his Inspire KT-88 Firebottle amps he builds in a little shop after retiring from Cary that runs 6L6, 6550, EL 34, KT77 and KT 88 output tubes with a single 6SN7 or 6SL7 driver tube. Different from SLI-80 as the Firebottle is a Single Ended Pentode Class A putting out only 10-12 wpc. If you find one of these used, buy IT! Paired with the Heresys, you’ll learn what tube amps are all about. |
The bottom line is we can all tell you our stories and what we hear... But your hearing and listening room may not even produce what you want to hear from our equipment if in your room... The bottom line is try and go and listen to a few and see if you can bring it home and try it.. Not Until you hear in your own space will you know if tubes are for you...And listen to what others are saying about tubes and try and get close to best tubes when you listen to first time..Try and find others that knows these units you are thinking about and chat with them a while on their tube selection ....I was lucky enough to start with Raven Audio and owner Dave knew his machines so well and I explained that I had tinnitus and he would send me tubes to see what matched my hearing and give me best quality sound..I had Osprey for 5 years and Dave over those years shared with me some very nice tubes to keep me happy ..Like anything you purchase over time you will get tired of it and want a change and nothing big but little detail will spark your hearing again ..Just a change of tubes weather power tubes or pre amp ...just 2 pre amp and what a change can make...But if you get hooked with tube amp sound chances are you enjoy many years of sound you never heard from a solid state...But remember not all songs play through tubes as they do through solid state .. I find tubes break down a song and segregate sound to speakers and solid state keeps it more tighter in sound..This is what I hear from tubes vs solid state.. I also find that some songs I luv and using KT88 tubes they are to airy and need say a 6550 power tubes ..Nothing is perfect ... + / _ no matter what you listen to.. |
@mattsca If you want any one of these amps noted by @trivema , feel free to message me, my colleague with the Hersey speakers is thinking he is going to put his Inspire by Dennis Had Firebottle amps up for sale on USAM including - Inspire 300B, Inspire KT88 amps. Also he still has a standard Cary SLI-80 that will be listed too. The Klipsch Hersey 4s will be listed too. He's stalling a bit, and loves all of it, would love to keep it all - but can't. He had to change his room and went to a basic integrated setup for his family, and making life changes. Feel free to msg. |
Some good advice here. Your Heresy Speakers are very efficient at 99db. You can easily get away with a low powered amp and have the ability to then use single ended triode class A amps that use wonderful sounding tubes like 300B, 845 or other amps with EL34 tubes. Any of these would be likely be a better sonic match to your speakers than at KT type based amp. Also consider that as you go up in power you may increase the number of output tubes thus increasing the cost when retubing. Additionally moderate to high powered amps can create more background noise at low to moderate volume with speakers of high efficiency. Stay under 40watts per channel. |
My Cornwall 4's are moved by an arrangement of components that have proven to be very well matched to the task.. The PL EVO 400 Pre is sandwiched between a Holo May KTE DAC and a pair of AGD Audion Mk3 monoblocs. The CD transport is a Jay's CDT3 Mk3. The Primaluna pre uses NOS Mullards in the rectifier positions and a pair of NOS Amperex "Bugle Boy" 12au7's from the late 1950's in the gain positions. This took awhile to become a stellar setup as most of these components needed a lot of break-in. The PL was already broken in. It did finally take some extensive fiddling with power cables and IC's to get everything just right, but that is par for the course. |
To @mattsca one question I forgot to ask. What SS integrated/amplification do you have now, and do plan to keep it to rotate back to once in a while if you buy a tube amp? The reason for asking is many of us own and use more than one amp, and if we go to low-power tube amps (for example) we can also go back to our other higher power SS or tube amps if we crave additional power drive once in a while. If you are thinking of completely replacing your SS amp, reselling that, then maybe a higher power vs. lower power integrated tube amplifier might be a consideration, [if that makes sense], and if that’s what you are more use to with your Klipsch today. Low power tube amps, say under 8 watts, is its own game, tubes, speciality amps, and some end up chasing that for years, trying many different amps, expensive WE300B tubes and more. Then hoarding spare tubes, more expenses. IF you share a little more about what your wants/needs/plans are, more here can assist after going down many of these different rabbit holes many of us never pop out of for decades. Next thing ya know, there are 3-5 more tube amps lying around, relatively quickly, its a disease, LOL :) |
First off, I have to say how much I appreciate all the comments, opinions, and suggestions on this string. They’ve been really helpful and informative on a topic I am brand new to. Thank you, each of you! To @decooney’s question, my current setup is Roon-directed; Eversolo A6 (or Bluesound Node Nano); Dual CS 529 TT; McIntosh C53 Pre; McIntosh MC312 Amp; B&W 702 S3; REL T/7x pair; with good-not-great interconnects. My Heresys are secondary speakers right now. I am undecided on if I place a tube integrated in the same room, or perhaps set it up with my Klipsch in my master bedroom (which is large enough for a sitting area). I do plan on keeping my SS system in place, not getting rid of anything - I really like it. Based on the great comments thus far, I am starting to draw the following conclusions: - Whatever I get, it’s likely not going to be a stopping place - the tube world is too wonderfully diverse to think I will have heard all worth hearing. - As a novice, the PrimaLuna design has the appeal of being less high maintenance, more worry-free - No need for power above 40-45 watts or so, and tube replacement costs for lower powered rigs is appealing - A PrimaLuna downside (perhaps) is that the sound signature may be the least contrast to the reasonably warm SS sound I have today versus other tube offerings - There are some really beautiful tube amps out there! |
To @mattsca if you are enamored by the weight and body elements your MC312 amp and Rel subs offer today on your main system, I think its going to take a special tube amplifier with real iron transformers to capture your attention with your Hersey speakers. This is where personal taste with trial and error begins. A friend of mine with all 3 models of Herseys has been through about ten different lower power SET, PSE Triode, and higher power Push Pull tube amps with his Herseys. All of the best tubes in the world too, btw. Each amp type and design gave its own presentation and result. He loved them all for different reasons, delicacy, and more. Many lacked drive, with "tradeoffs" he reports. Go figure, today he runs a higher power integrated solid state amp for other reasons, yet now realizes some of the differences going back full circle to where he started. Now has an entire room full of tubes to get rid of, fwiw. Best of luck on the journey. :)
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