OP,
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Records and CDs
I’ve just spent a couple of weeks exclusively going through my extensive record collection playing hardly any digital media and have come to some conclusions.
Records are fun and enjoyable to work with, but ultimately for a music lover they’re a dead end. Since very few new titles are being released on records these days I find myself going through mainly old familiar performances. Then there’s the age old problem of comparing the SQ of both media which is maddening. I just today went back to streaming (and CDs.). I clearly see, for me this is the way to continue my listening habits. Records can be used as a diversion but not the main event.
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Don’t know how to compare a random LP recording with a random silver disc. Mike placement, hall acoustics, conductor preferences with instrumental seating and balances…. Lets just agree that it has been possible to make excellent recordings since the fifties that can compare with the finest made today, and that one can obtain excellent play back from vinyl, streaming, silver disc, and analog tape |
This is all 100% personal preference and I still much prefer my records over streaming. I should probably go separate DAC/streamer to compete with my analog but the Aurender A20 is so easy to own and use. My analog is a Rega P10/Koetsu Rosewood Signature/ARC Ref 3 Phono. On newly produced music, I often find there isn’t much of a difference, but on older recordings the vinyl just sounds better. I still enjoy getting up every 8-20 minutes....I mean that’s a good thing, right?? |
RV, FWIW, I bought several RR CD’s of the Pittsburgh Symphony/Honeck performances. based on reviews. I listened to them once. Sound v performance? Who cares. Frankly I’ve not been overly happy with recent RR’s. Last liked them when it was with Oue and the Minnesota Orchestra. But I kept on trying. Now I’ve given up. :-( |
I played a recent SACD of Brahms 4th Symphony on Reference Recordings (Honeck, Pittsburgh Symphony)a highly touted audiophile label, then played a recording of the same symphony on an LP recorded in the mid fifties (Van Beinum Concertgebouw Orchestra) The orchestral sound from the record was infinitely more realistic. just saying… |
In the classical field that I mostly listen to the vast majority of titles released or not on vinyl but on CD. Those that are on LP are twice the price, and despite claims, don’t sound as good as the originals. Like you, I like the rituals of analog, although I’m not sure it has better sound than digital on my set. |
Too each his own. That said …. - to my ears, analog sounds better than digital. For example: I was able to tell that the sound quality of MOFI had declined, but I did not know why until the controversy leaped out into the press. |
@boxcarman I still own and use a stereo tuner, several actially. I own a dynalab, kenwood, camridge audio, and several others. I also own a nakamichi tape deck, as well as two Aiwa and a vintage Toshiba. I play them all. To me, both FM stereo and a "good" tape deck sound very very good to me. In fact, I’d rather listen to them more so than any stream of any sort. Something about that Analog sound. |
Why would you want to get rid of your record collection that you worked very hard to culminate? It’s like a music library/history. That would be like saying I’m a book collector and I have created a beautiful library, but want to sell off the books because I can have them all on my kindle! Really? Would you actually truly still own those books? I don’t think so. Unless room Is of a concern, then why even consider such. To me, I find great satisfaction being able to walk on over to the record collection, randomly pulling one off the shelf and playing it. I sometimes even forget what I have and I’m surprised all over again. I find it peaceful to know I have that luxury of ownership. Streaming takes away a large part of the hobby, the touchy and Feely part. How much info are you getting from looking at a tiny screen, if there is a screen at all. |
In the beginning, we had AM radio or vinyl. The we got FM and cassettes or 8-track. We have come a long way in the world of Hi-Fi. I still listen to vinyl when I am feeling nostalgic. Dad had a medium size collection of vinyl including Johnny Horton, Merle, even Ray Charles. He ruined every record stacking 6 at a time on the cheap record changer. Ow! @RVPiano |
I have fond memories from back in the late '70s and early '80s of a bunch of us getting together at someone's apartment or trailer and spinning LPs all day and all night and using the the album covers that folded open like a book to clean the seeds out of a bag of canibus. . . . I tragically gave up my LP collection at the end of 82 and then in the beginning of '89 when I was picking up another rack system I specifically opted to NOT get a TT. Then in the mid '90s when I started getting into better-end audio, it sure seemed like vinyl was still dead and I committed myself and my system to digital . . . just another one of many life choices I now regret. |
@troutstreamnm With all due respect, you came across a bit condescending. Those of us who collect and love vinyl do so for more than just another hobby. I'm young enough not to have known the "nostalgia of servicing vinyl in the old days", so my vinyl listening doesn't have a memory association. It exists for its own sake. |
I think vinyl is now just another audio sub-hobby for people wanting to buy equipment and collect vinyl for fun. CD’s are so much easier to use and generally better with no noise. streaming is becoming such excellent quality and you can listen for hours without having to move (as long as your internet is working). I personally prefer CD’s for sound quality, ease of use, and having to get out of the listening chair periodically! Maybe goes back to the nostalgia of servicing vinyl in the old days. Whatever floats your boat! |
My vinyl purchases nowadays are pretty much limited to Jazz and classical. Why? Because playing that vinyl forces me to kind of sit down and listen to the whole 20 plus or so minutes of music without skipping around tracks and artists that I do when I stream Tidal. A lot of the newer releases and the course some of the older ones and those genres sound beautiful. |
As @benanders points out, the comparison can be invalidated just by the difference between the masters. You just don’t know what version the streaming services have. Most of the time it isn’t the same. Pressing itself matters even if it’s the same master. There are so many variables there’s just no way to win for either of the formats. |
I split my listening time between vinyl, CD, and digital (high-res files and streaming service like Spotify and Radio Paradise) and the sound quality varies greatly depending on the year something was originally issued and the specific medium, or the original master recording source (tape vs digital). Heck I have new records where the digital version is better (cleaner and more detailed and revealing) than the same album pressed on brand-new vinyl. I have recordings by artists whose catalog was predominately issued on CD and only now are being "remastered" for vinyl reissues. When I go to my local record store and I'm looking for new-to-me jazz/funk/R&B records I tend towards the used vinyl vs the new re-issues will most likely not be great and have less dynamic range. Heck, even the mid-80s 'cheap' reissues of jazz, blues, and R&B are closer to the original master tapes than today's reissues, and often the used copies sound way better. For newer electronic and ambient artists, most are releasing only high-res digital files, CDs and maybe special vinyl pressings. I tend to stick to digital files with a preference for CDs because I like having the physical package and the SQ of the CDs on my system sound great. I don't lean strongly towards one medium or the other as I buy music that is important to me personally for my collection. For everyday background listening with the family, it's strictly streaming. I use RP and Spotify as "new music to me" sources as well. I can dig deep into an artist's catalog without the expense of trying to buy every release. At the end of the day, listening enjoyment and getting the most out of my collection is what it is all about and seeking out the best recording version is what I try to do without bias towards one medium or another. |
It's all good if you didn't spend it on audio you would be spending it on your psychiatrists spending it there.enjoy the music .I have spent money on cars that I wish I hadent but I had fun went fast was in many competing races and still do my corvette has been the best bang for the buck lt always works.im sure there is stuff in the audio world that is the same.stay healthy enjoy it all. |
It’s a complex issue. There were a lot of analog to digital transfers that were poorly done (I think this more prevalent in pop than Classical). The playback equipment of the time wasn’t the culprit as much as the transfer engineers. The playback equipment has improved, but I have read several interviews with recording engineers who all say that as time went on they became more comfortable with digital. The music is the thing. If comparing different technologies is interfering with enjoyment, and one can’t stop making comparisons, then either: 1) Admit to yourself that listening to gear for the sake of listening to gear is an enjoyable end in and of itself; or 2) pack up either the digital or analog system and keep it out of the system for a while and see how you feel about after a few months |
@rvpiano Maybe it's just me, or it's my age, but I've always preferred to own physical media. I don't stream at all. I like to feel the CD/LP in my hands. I like to read the liner notes and enjoy the artwork. Sound aside, LPs are a leg up on the CD format in this area. Mind you, when they take the time to include a nice booklet in the CD case, that can also be a joy. It's really tough to beat the sound quality and convenience of the CD format. SACD? I've been disappointed with the number of SACD discs I have purchased and can't hear any improvement over my original CD copy. Even when paying $$ for the remastered versions from MOFI. I still buy vinyl but mostly things like Tone Poet releases from Blue Note. Another fantastic series of recordings are on the Blue Engine label under the Jazz At Lincoln Hall LPs. The Wayne Shorter double LP is one of the best recordings I own. It brings back your faith in the LP format. |
I'm the exact opposite...records are the main event, digital is for my convenience. The process and interaction with the media (records) is part and parcel of what makes the whole experience enjoyable. Cd or digital cannot compare to the way old records were once recorded, all Analog. I'm in the "better records" camp. Some recordings suck, some are just out of this world (records). I also love the interaction with the device (turntable). |
Thank you, good post. There are many variables. You are correct, Apple to Apple comparisons are difficult. Most of my albums are from the 60’s & 70’s. The remastered albums tend to be inferior and quality pressings can be hard to find. |
@signaforce |
I’m beginning to see that making it a contest of digital vs. analog is a fool’s errand. |
@signaforce it’s a trap! Tongue-in-cheek but trying to compare entire playback chains based on per-unit or overall cost is not an errand I’ll run. And if in the future it’s proven to be an errand for smart folks only, never mind, I’ll happily play the fool. 😉 First order of business would be confirming the master of the vinyl disc and streamed file you’re hearing are the same. If not, all bets off. Next would be the QC of the vinyl - most new digitized/remasters (streaming files) will be of limited dynamic range, but then so are many LP’s. You may well be comparing two different variants of apples or oranges, which would be sufficient for small differences. Old vinyl is can be fantastic for albums that weren’t mastered digitally, weren’t remastered well, or that simply aren’t available via streaming or digitally at all. Good QC’ed vinyl doesn’t need a 5+ figure setup to sound great; then again, neither does digital. If I had time to digitize all my records, I would have extremely few left in my possession. Hopefully someday.
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Interesting observation on my streamer. The N150 is a current model that sells for $3,500. Between my streamer and DAC, I spent over $5,000. My analog side was just over $4,000 & in my mind superior. So you are recommending I move to a streamer that costs $7,000+, so $9,000 digital would be better than $4,000 analog? Maybe, but IMHO we should be comparing like for like. If I then spend $9,000 on corresponding Analog (cartridge, TT, phono pre), I strongly believe the Analog would be superior, just like my current system or at any price point on a like for like comparison. IMHO. |
I seem to be in minority here, so decided to A/B. Playing Herbie Hancock Takin’ Off, both Qobuz streaming (24/192) and vinyl simultaneously. |
I totally concur with your point. I remember making those A-B comparisons in previous years with analog coming out on top every time. Things have radically changed. Having invested heavily (for me) in a new analog system recently, I fully expected to hear records surpassing CDs or streaming again. That is not the case. Digital has come a long way. And I guess that expectation is part of my dilemma. |
Remember we are in a rapidly changing audio time in the analog vs digital arena. Fifteen years ago analog sound simply exceeded digital at all price points. At that time vinyl was considered to have “an intrinsic” sound. Which is now clear that it does not. “The sound”, is the result of the playback equipment. At some point the increasing resolution levels possible with digital will surpass analog and a gap will begin to develop. The relative sound quality has been changing as first, the mid tier audiophile became sound quality competitive (say around $20K - $50K for analog ((tt and phonostage)) and the same for digital ((streamer and DAC)) ), but at the low end and high end vinyl still was better than digital… IF you did a good job of choosing your components and matching their sound qualities to your taste in your system. Even when this was the case. You could end up by poor or good choices with the reverse situation.
Over the last five years the sound quality of DACs and now streamers have gotten notably more competitive at lower price points allowing digital to equal or surpass analog at relatively low investment levels. As evidence, this thread! You would not find this number of digital advocates five years ago. I am sure in the next five years the conversation will continually shift to the majority scratching their head as to why anyone thought vinyl was good in the first place. |
@rvpiano - I've had a Clearaudio Charisma cartridge, the one just above the Maestro, and I can tell you that is one awesome MM cartridge; never felt the need to move up to an MC cart in the 3+ years I've had this. I hope you enjoy your Maestro.... Sound-wise, I enjoy both vinyl and CD and have good systems for both. Sound quality matters aside, I'll always prefer looking at album artwork on a nice 12"x12" sleeve than a little CD-sized casing. |
RV, FWIW, you have now arrived at where I was 10+ years ago. Vinyl had actually become more of a distraction than anything else. Great sonics (and some performances) on a few records, but when I played them I was more in awe of the sounds than the music. Bad reason for listening I thought. So I gave my records and system to a relative and I got all that I could no longer get, a refocusing on the music. Frankly I don’t really miss them and I’m able to spend my time discovering new (to me) music and enjoying what I already have. And because of age (hearing issues and audio limitations) I have focused on chamber music and solo instruments, mostly piano. I never really was that fond of orchestral due to recording limitations as well as the reality of having Mahler in my living room. I saved serious listening for the concert hall. Perhaps it’s time to take Thoreau’s advice. Simplify! :-) |
@rvpiano exactly why I sold my analog setup. Constantly comparing digital vs analog, it’s an arms race. I ended up neither here nor there so I just focused on digital and the funds from selling my table, cartridge, phono amp and cables allowed me to get the digital and amplification chains to a much higher level. |
the new classical releases on vinyl come from places such as the Berlin Philharmonic house label and are Uber expensive. To me they represent a cynical attempt to catch well healed customers who have either fallen for the myth of vinyl supremacy or, more likely, wish to have it as pride of ownership but won’t actually be spinning it that much |
Happily the album art is becoming available in streaming. Qobuz now will have a pdf attached to the on line album, so you get to see it on your iPad or laptop while listening. So, hopefully that lack of art will go away and in future albums art will be created for new albums expecting on-line streaming. |