LOL! Perfect. Yes, this is certainly analogous. |
Who's telling musicians to do that? |
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Oh my. This will rattle some feathers at ASR. I am always amazed when they claim one DAC sounds the same as any other with equal measurements.
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Making great musical instruments involves all kinds of “art”, all kinds of things things that can only be measured by (experienced) ears. The same goes for making great music. Making great “instruments” to reproduce this music in our homes is totally “scientific”, measurable and quantifiable, though🙄 No need to use our ears. |
What does this have to due with Audio? |
It's the actual musician that makes an instrument sing, not how exclusive the instrument is. A better sounding instrument will however, inspire the musician to play better.
A good player with a cheap guitar vs a hack with a very nice guitar will always draw more attention. |
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“It's the actual musician that makes an instrument sing, not how exclusive the instrument is. A better sounding instrument will however, inspire the musician to play better.
A good player with a cheap guitar vs a hack with a very nice guitar will always draw more attention.”
Just like the best possible system you could put together with an unlimited budget wouldn’t be very appealing if you didn’t have any good music to play through it.
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Tone is in your fingers. And your cables. And your fuses. And your amp. And your microphone. And the room conditions. And your equipment. And the stability of the power, cords and connections. And what media your using.....
As a guitar player myself, I like my tone to ooze from the speakers like liquid lava.
Where does it all end, man?!?!?!?!?!?
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For those who don’t get what this is about, I’m trying to point out how ridiculous the things some people keep saying about how we should evaluate our equipment are, when applied to the music we love, and the instruments it is played on/through.
No one questions when a craftsman chooses materials for, and builds, an instrument guided by his ears, or a musician chooses an instrument the same way. Dare to say you build your home music reproduction system this way, though, and you will get all kinds of grief. |
There is a terrific movie, The Red Violin. Fabulous movie. With a scene that makes this point in the most poignant way I can imagine.
The Red Violin is a sort of Stradivarius among Stradivariuses. The movie follows the life of this violin as it passes from one owner to another. A passionate performer. A band of gypsies. An activist in China. Each one building a bond with this wondrous violin. This all reaches a climax with the Red Violin being sold at an auction where all the various families are bidding to have it back.
But not only the descendants who have their own powerful emotional attachment. The world’s foremost authority has been searching his whole life for it as well. He has his own reasons for wanting it. He knows his violins, he is after all the world expert, but he has to be sure. Spoiler alert, the emotional climax of the movie comes when we learn just how the Red Violin came to have its special rare red hue.
The violin is being tested on a bench. The technician pronounces it a perfect acoustical instrument. Everyone else in the whole movie handles the violin like the precious gift that it is. Now it is bolted to a bench, and instead of being played it is being subjected to machines vibrating it. You have to see the movie to appreciate how this is intercut with scenes of the craftsman using his dead wife’s blood in the varnish. She died in childbirth. He had lost both his wife and the son for whom he had created his masterpiece. The contrast between the craftsman and his love of music and the technician and his abominable numbers has never been more clear.
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Especially acoustic string instruments, regardless of measurements, sound vastly different. And measurements, as in HiFi, only tell part of the story. They do not measure tone. In guitars (or violins), the artistry of the builder, method and materials have a great impact on tone. Brazilian rosewood has acoustic properties that make it vastly better sounding than East Indian rosewood. All woods used have a great impact on the ultimate sound. And the of the age of the cut is also significant. The older the better. Especially the age of the finished instrument. Eg.; a 1930s Martin Guitar can sound amazingly good and can sell for hundreds of thousands, mostly, because of the tone. Not to mention a violin of a great builder that is hundreds of years old! A new guitar, or violin, can also sound good but the tone will open up with playing. All these instruments will improve in tone the more they are played. This is also a central factor in old instruments. In comparison, quality of Audio gear is certainly dependent on skill, method and materials. But, aside from the break in, age can wear our certain elements like caps and bearings. However the “ear” of the builder is central to the ultimate tone of the component.
And, as said, the measurements only tell part of the story. They cannot measure the tone.
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Another marvelous video, craftsman walking a stand of very special trees high in a mountain forest. He thumps on each one and you hear a unique sound, like so much different than any tree trunk you ever thumped you cannot believe it. Walks along thumping, thumping, until he finds the right tree.
This one select tree is then cut down, aged, sawn into lumber, aged some more. Eventually years later some choice piece is selected and sawn by hand, shaped by hand, no machine tool touches it, ever. There is no guide, no rule that says it must be this thick here, that thick there. Nothing like that. Just the craftsman and his hand tools and his skill.
They do not go to all this trouble to play a 440 A. They do this because such a fine musical instrument in the hands of a skilled performer can be made to bring tears to your eyes.
If anyone can find that video I surely would appreciate a link. Thanks.
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Millercarbon, this is a side of you I’ve never seen before, sensitive, artistic. Not tech stuff. Well done, I’d love to see these films.
And right on point.
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@mglik , such a wonderful comment to add to the discussion. As a lover of classical music who attends live performances and also believes in reproducing music accurately at home, your words ring true.
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millercarbon make big show tough guy real soft considerate inside you just need get know maybe over tequila, bring good clean girl not like last time.
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@tablejockey EXACTLY "You have to have the apple before you can polish it"
A good player with a cheap guitar vs a hack with a very nice guitar will always draw more attention.
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A lot of what makes an instrument sing is the peculiar, individual synergy it generates with the musician who plays the thing. As the cliche says (how do I get this verkokte website to put the accent mark on the ""e"?), it takes two to tango. |
Exactly right and important to keep in mind that artistry on a high level requires an instrument of similarly high quality.
As has been pointed out, ultimately what matters most is the player’s musicianship that matters most. However, this is really stating the obvious and the differences and the practically infinite nuances that exist in the playability of different instruments are very important to an accomplished player. Ultimately, those differences are what allow a great player to take his playing one step closer to the sound and expressivity that he is striving for. An inferior, or unsuitable instrument simply won’t allow a player to get there. Great players can make good music on mediocre instruments, but there is a reason that they don’t play mediocre instruments.
It becomes a very personal choice. Some players want an instrument that is very easy to play in the sense that it responds very quickly and with little resistance. Other players prefer to have an instrument that offers a little “fight” and needs more coaxing to respond. The particular playing situation may determine in part the choice of instrument. The quality of the tone is a result of an inherent quality in the instrument and of the particular player’s touch, which is the result of the player’s individual approach to the mechanics of producing a sound as well as his physical characteristics. An accomplished player knows how to control and manipulate these in order to produce the desired sound.
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Frogman explores the issue far more eloquently than I ever could. And oh yeah... A few years back I happened to score a box of genuine tortoise shell guitar picks that had been sitting around unsold since they were still legal. Yes, I am glad that the tortoise is no longer hunted down for its shell, But the fact remains that not only do they truly make my steel string acoustic guitars sound better than a plastic one ever did, they reshape themselves over time to make themselves ever more comfortable to hold. |
Excellent analogy.
Further, Gibson players don't denigrate Fender players for having inferior equipment. Effects pedal makers aren't accused of using snake oil because someone says they can't hear the effect, etc. |
I'm not a guitar player but have dittled with some at the music store. I can Feel the difference just holding and moving my hand upon one guitar from another. Watching guitarist friends trying out different guitars. Sound is first off. Listening while strumming chords. Tune it up. But once past that they seem to be more interested in moving upon it to make music. Kind of showoffy really. Finger acrobatics. I can't imagine how objective science via an oscilloscope will show this.
This goes beyond guitars. Piano, violin, clarinet... Stereo system. Years ago I went out to purchase a new french horn. That horn of all horns for me. Got down to 4 manufactures/models costing between $8-12,000 at the time. They all are fine horns as resale values represent. Still fine horns by todays standards. The one I purchased ultimately was because it was the most Friendly to me. Did what I asked it to do. Almost helping me play my best. Objective scientific measure? Not yet.
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Devising effective tests for audio equipment SQ is child's play compared with doing it for the violin. Every piece of wood is different. MDF that most box speakers are made from is pretty much homogeneous.
However we still await a comprehensive suite of tests that can fully explain and predict SQ in audio products. Perhaps even wire. I believe we may be waiting some time. |
I don’t believe it will ever happen. I don’t believe there will ever be a time when measurements will ENTIRELY explain why audio equipment sounds the way that it does.
Sound, and especially musical sounds, are incredibly complex and are subject to the effects of resonances to a degree usually under estimated; and an object’s resonance characteristics are changed by the tiniest changes in the physical dimensions, shape and make up of the object. Case in point:
One of the most coveted pieces of equipment in the professional woodwind world is one of the great vintage mouthpieces (holds the reed). It has been tried countless times, and one would think that with all of the very sophisticated modern analysis, measuring tools and techniques that are available to modern manufactures that a great mouthpiece could be created that closely, if not entirely, duplicates the playing characteristics and sound of these vintage pieces. Hasn’t happened yet. Of course the same can be said as concerns the instruments themselves. There is great modern gear available to be sure, but for players seeking a certain sound and playability characteristics, the vintage route is often the only way.
I will leave to others the possible reasons why and how the effects of resonance impact musical sound when it is being transmitted in the electrical domain as is the case with audio equipment. However, it is clear to me that it does based on the effects of the many related tweaks that we play around with as audiophiles. So, it all leads me to the conclusion that there is much more going on in this area in ways that are not as obvious nor accessible. |
clearthinker, because it is the human central nervous system that defines sound quality I think that would be forever. |
I still get the shakes when I recall musical instruments I played at stores that were oh-so-wonderful but just a little north of my wallet's comfort zone. Science be damned. |
Perfectly stated tommylion. I'm one of those loons that like to listen with my ears. |
+1 OP
It’s been empirically demonstrated countless times but deaf ears and closed minds cannot comprehend that basic statistics and common sense say otherwise. People are increasingly scrupulous about performance the more $ they invest, it’s not an automatic placebo. When they claim what we hear is stepping over the common sense line. I highly suspect either their systems are not transparent enough, their hearing is not as acute, or their conclusions are colored by their expectations.
But, as always they’ll never go away. Best to ignore and focus on good things like music. |
I was talking to my one of my musician family members about her issues with live sound. Most of them were cleared up after proper placement of mic with respect to speakers so as not to induce feedback. You would be surprised how many people w/o a physics background struggle with these things. She being a lifelong educator and artist and all. I then suggested she not use a guitar amp for her miked saxaphone. The conversation ended. |
I’ve wondered how the people over at ASR & audioholics audition gear? W a oscilloscope and calculator?
As far as musical instruments go, my friends late mother was a child prodigy/concert pianist. When she turned 21, she was given a new pre war Steinway Grand Piano. When talking to my friend about audio gear, he raised the issue of how the instrument, which was left pretty much unused after her passing, had deteriorated sonically. It is now with a friend of his, an opera singer, so it can be used regularly and be brought back to life.
He was asking about speaker and them aging and getting better over time. Given that composites are used for the bulk of speakers, this isn’t really a thing.
I bought a wooden field camera years ago made out of ebony with titanium hardware to try to reduce the weight. They used wood that had been stored at a constant humidity and allowed to settle for years before being used. This to give it as much stability as possible before milling down.
I would be curious to see how aging effects the resonance of plywood. Certainly it will dry out and harden over time, potentially becoming brittle pending climate conditions.
Instruments require resonance to work properly. Speakers, for the most part, avoid resonances. |
When it can make you smile, or give you goosebumps, or make you feel in love ... then it sounds good, no matter the measurements.
Doesn’t always have to be expensive. My €8,‐ earbuds, which I got after having read many reviews that claimed they sound really good, similar to €200,‐ ones, they can make me smile ... because they really do! :)
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