Possibly of interest: "We propose that age-related hearing loss may be associated with poor micronutrient status. Two of the most common vitamin inadequacies in the elderly are vitamin B-12 and folate (15).....The cochlea of the inner ear is where much of the hearing loss in the elderly is believed to occur (23). The cochlea is highly vascularized and is supported by a single artery. High homocysteine concentrations associated with low vitamin B-12 status, low folate status, or both were shown to be a risk factor for cerebral, coronary, and peripheral vascular disease (24). Perhaps high homocysteine concentrations associated with poor vitamin B-12 or folate status also adversely affect blood flow to the cochlea. Low vitamin B-12 status may also impair myelination of the neurons in the cochlear nerve...." https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/69/3/564/4694205
The Absurdity of it All
50-60-70 year old ears stating with certainty that what they hear is proof positive of the efficacy of analog, uber-cables, tweaks...name your favorite latest and greatest audio "advancement." How many rock concerts under the bridge? Did we ever wear ear protection with our chain saws? Believe what you will, but hearing degrades with age and use and abuse. To pontificate authority while relying on damaged goods is akin to the 65 year old golfer believing his new $300 putter is going to improve his game. And his game MAY get better, but it is the belief that matters. Everything matters, but the brain matters the most.
223 responses Add your response
I've seen Iron Maiden 4 times not once with ear protection. Yes I am a complete zipperhead. My 3rd time was @ MSG in 2016 and my ears literally rang for 4 days. I have lost quite a bit of trust in my ears, but it was so worth it, LOL! But I can still hear well enough to hear that sweet sound of my Dynaudios and know when I added my Bifrost 2 there was a huge audible improvement! |
In the grand scheme of audio systems...less is more. The more tweaks you put in the system, the more hurdles that need to be jumped. My favorite music system for years is CD/DVD/computer player through passive volume control straight to power amp through 12 gauge copper to speakers. The quality of the recording dictates the quality of the playback. Buy better software. |
@perkri - first - thanks for engaging and teaching me something. I really do appreciate it! I can't speak to rolling tubes or changing capacitors, I have absolutely no experience with either. But I have experience swapping out components which has made a difference. But it's immediate and I do an A/B right there and then and can hear the differences. (And with components at least, it's obvious - cables - not so much.) But, that's a 1+0 sum to get somewhere better. I don't understand why you have to have time between them - unless you mean just adjusting to something new. Yes, ribbons are different than boxes, etc. So I can see that with speakers and their designs, but electronics? Cables? Are you just adjusting to the sound, or is it a +1 difference? |
@jpeters568. I’ve brought this up many time to help illustrate my point. Take two capacitors from two different manufacturers, exact same specs, exact same measurements. Sound different. Do the same with two tubes. They sound different. Shouldnt matter, I agree, but yet, it does. Why? Don’t know, don’t care. If I replace something, or change something up, I live with it for a while. Then I consider what is missing, or what there is perhaps too much of. Then I make a change again and listen for changes. If you are watching a film of poor video quality, after a little while you don’t notice that bad quality so much. The mind compensates - especially if it’s a film that has captured your interest. Same holds true for sound. If I’m trying to tune a bookshelf speaker after having been listening to electrostatics, it’s going to cause some problems. So, I live with them for a while, let my brain adjust before I listen critically and attempt to make changes. |
I think there’s more than hearing acuity. People who are older may have less hearing acuity but have more experience. I spoke to Fremer recently, he said I may not hear as well as I used to but I listen better than ever. I think that about sums it up. It’s always good to have someone with more experience point you in a direction. Right or wrong for you, that’s another story entirely. |
@Perki - totally respect your point and fair question. But I respectfully disagree with you - some do claim HUGE differences. And if one part can't be determined to be better, than how would the sum of those parts be better? (0 + 0 = 0.) If they can't be determined on their own, than how can a combination of them make it better? (I hope I was able to articulate that okay... If not, my apologies in advance.) And, I'm open to it. But, I have been bashed for my own experience which, is no change in my system. It's something wrong with my ears, or my 30k system, or my room - or my inexperience. I'm absolutely open to an A/B test. (And I have done them.... often times thinking I heard an initial improvement but, when blind tested, I can't tell.) |
@jpeters568
You are obviously a realist that doesn't fall for "subjectivity" of spending large amounts of cash wishing the tweak will actually deliver the audio nirvana that's advertised. The atmospheric conditions of the room will have more impact on the sound quality than a good quality 12 ga copper speaker cable. Ohms Law plays by a different set of rules than waves through a gas of variable density. |
@jpeters568 Not claiming we can hear better, just that we can listen better. No one is claiming "Huge differences", just differences. No one tweak is coming to shatter your audio experience, however, when all put together, they add up to something more. You know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? And a big thing is just a lot of little things put together? What of any of these tweaks have you tried? And what are you doing on this forum if you are not open to experimenting with these things? Western empirical logic is not the be all and end all of existence... |
Are any of you seriously suggesting that your senses have improved after the age of 25? You can see, and smell, and touch, and taste better in your 50's, 60's, or 70's?! Really? So, of 5 senses, 4 are certainly down. Yet, some of you claim that you can hear better at 50+? That's, with all due respect, delusional. As a younger member here (just turned 40) and only being in the hobby for 10 years or so - I get JPWarren's point - some of you are so convinced that some latest breakthrough technology makes things so much better, but when questioned about it, the person claiming they can't hear a difference is ridiculed and told they 1) Can't hear 2) Their system sucks or 3) Their room or some other variable must be at play. Instead of, just maybe, that latest and greatest thing, really not having an impact. A lot of you think that cables make such a huge difference. But, where is the data? And I don't mean the objective measured tests (Where it's claimed it can't be measured) but just the observations? Where is the test in a room with uncut video where 10 out of 10 people can identify cable 1 or 2 being used each time? Is it really the 30 year old can't hear that well, or is it just maybe, the older guy wants to prove he isn't that gullible and has to put others down to justify what he perceives as being better since he spent so much? |
A fine whiskey before serious, critical listening makes it all sound better. Just ask Ted. https://vimeo.com/537031075?fbclid=IwAR0RHuGf70Lnb5eyXMoWk_oElATYrvDea7krnslYYn3QQER149nRX07vPwo |
desert3813 posts04-21-2021 11:44amI am 61 and get my hearing checked as part of my annual physical. The nurses always comment that my results are comparable to a teenager. I am one of those that claims to hear a difference between stock power cables and speaker cables. I can’t tell you what you can hear, but I can hear a difference. Isn’t that what really matters? There is no wrong or right. I'm sure I could also hear a difference between stock power cables and speaker cables, although I've got to admit I've never considered comparing them as they each have their own distinct purposes. |
04-20-2021 10:19am "Point being to encourage more humility and less dogmatism. " Right. So, what is more dogmatic? Saying trust your own ears, let them tell you what you hear, on your own system in your own room using your own judgement combined with years of experience figuring what kind of sound you like and knowing how to attain that? Or is it the measurement pushers? If there is no measurement difference then there is no difference?I can't see how saying "try it, see if you like it" is dogmatic. Saying "Why would I try it, it doesn't measure any different" is considerably more so.And the naysayers who have not tried, and who use some kind of "science" to justify their closed minded beliefs? Do you need the sugar content of two different Granny Smith apples to know they taste different? Dogmatic... I recently finished building a heavy plinth Lenco L70. Last week when I put it into my system, I put it quickly on some large half round sorbothane "bits". (Have not yet decided if I'm using springs, roller blocks or some kind of pod) After doing my tonearm set up, I was finally able to actually listen to the TT. Was lacking in dynamics. Pulled the sorbothane and replaced with some spikes I fabricated quickly using baltic birch, steel spikes and aluminum bases. Huge difference. Old ears? I can hear the second hand of my watch sweep through my pillow. And I know what to listen for in my system. Perhaps, you should consider approaching this subject with a bit more humility... |
I'm reminded of a Rodney Dangerfield joke when said he'd needed a second opinion and was told he was also ugly. |
I am 61 and get my hearing checked as part of my annual physical. The nurses always comment that my results are comparable to a teenager. I am one of those that claims to hear a difference between stock power cables and speaker cables. I can’t tell you what you can hear, but I can hear a difference. Isn’t that what really matters? There is no wrong or right. |
Sounds to me like a standard existential crisis. If we were to look at the process of ‘hearing’ music, and try to find the most ‘repeatable’ method of doing so, no matter the subject, the first thing to remove from the picture would be the brain. Too much experience coloring the sound. Next would be the ears, then air, then walls, then speakers. The problem is that once you have removed these things, there is no ‘hearing’ left. Correct. https://youtu.be/5FELdBsixGg?t=115 |
Newbee-- Good point. And maybe that explains an odd phenomenon with hearing aids. You put them in; you hear sounds you cannot hear otherwise. But what then happens is when you take the aids out, you once again can hear those sounds. (Your notes may explain how the brain can do this--likely by associating those low frequencies with the ones the hearing aids demonstrate to the dumb-ass brain are missing.) |
Sounds to me like a standard existential crisis. If we were to look at the process of ‘hearing’ music, and try to find the most ‘repeatable’ method of doing so, no matter the subject, the first thing to remove from the picture would be the brain. Too much experience coloring the sound. Next would be the ears, then air, then walls, then speakers. The problem is that once you have removed these things, there is no ‘hearing’ left. The process is subjective and flawed, and looking for scientific repeatability is a fools errand. Our experience of hearing is just that - an experience. Sartre solved the problem by putting existence ahead of essence. Our subjectivity (enlarged with age) makes for more critical listening ability. The essence (pure music without colorization) can only happen after the existence, therefore is already processed and colored by it. There is no hearing without the faults this thread is trying to identify and resolve. This shouldn’t mean that we give up on a subjective ideal, that would be too unhuman of us. Instead we should succumb to the flawed process and learn to appreciate the wealth of subjective folly that comes with age. Even bad directions can get you to the right place, if your willing and able to enjoy the trip (and not stuck with an oar). Just my 2 cents - except the last part. That was Homer. He’s old. |
Audiogon is an audiophile site. Why their are so many people here who detest audiophiles (at any age) is a mystery.Very simple... Some "Not so great mind" like to bash minds which they estimated lower than themselves in knowledge and experience... It is mankind story.... It is way better to be enthusiast, trustful, open, if you are a true great mind for sure....Life is more easy....And the thinking process is more creative if not more neutral....I dont doubt you are one of those true great mind boxer... My best to you.... |
Human hearing of great maestros, matured over fifty are not out of their place because some ignorant people here will claim so...A great maestro can spot a single musician playing right or wrong or not playing in his orchestra in spite of his age.... Hearing pitch and musical cues are not always innate, it is a learned ability, save for perfect pitch hearer.... And pitch perception DOES NOT reduce itself to pure frequencies hearing, it is not so simple...Save for simple mind.... And this war between subjectivist and objectivist is ridiculous... People short of argument take a side in an deadlock case, an ended road ... And some came here quarelling people who speak about their sound experience with gear to ask them pass a hearing test or a blind test if not attack them... These audio threads are for PARTAKING experience and information... Blindtest CANNOT be systematically organized and anyway are NOT the solution.... Is it not ridiculous? Which one the most ridiculous? Take your side... But this is waste of time... Better to read a book..... I will not suggest here for the moment the book i was reading, someone supposedly informed qualify the writer to be ignorant without even knowing the book , after all the writers’s life of studying acoustic...Is it not astounding ? It astound me the BIAS of some here and i dont speak about hearing bias here.... 😊 I will read the book... |
Everyone looses some part of their hearing at different frequencies, young and old . In the service , shooting weapons ,weed whacking, mowing our lawns, snow blowing ,leaf blowing, for certain not everyone or even most always wore hearing protection at all times ,even a blender is technically too loud.As you get older you will loose certain frequencies ,some more then others . That’s life .I am 62 and went to plenty of concerts where it may have been too loud ,So be it .I enjoyed it and I still enjoy music daily . just be great full for what you can hear. |
Why, oh why, is there so much projection done on the part of the flat earth naysayers? (i.e. ones who reject basic science). They are the ones with their panties in a bunch, not the hobbyists (you mean the ones that fight tooth and nail at every opportunity to use their eyes for listening? those ones?). They are the ones who preach dogma, not the other way ’round (dogma, like claiming things don’t work that do, or that they are infallible, that dogma?). They are the ones who want consensus on their terms and brook no argument. (those awful people and their awful terms, like reliable, and repeatable, and ears only. horrible horrible people). |
Why, oh why, is there so much projection done on the part of the flat earth naysayers? They are the ones with their panties in a bunch, not the hobbyists. They are the ones who preach dogma, not the other way ’round. They are the ones who want consensus on their terms and brook no argument. That, and they are so very, very tiring. All the best, Nonoise |
I think one, just one, of the major contributors to the confusion about the results of loss of hearing at an advanced age is the failure of people to recognize much of what they hear and judge audio highs by resides in much lower frequency ranges. So when they hear sound clearly in the 1500 to 3000 hz range they attribute this to sounds in the 5000 (+/-) range and think their hearing is still pretty good. My age related loss of hearing mainly affects what it does to my appreciation for holographic imaging - I can still hear all the notes, just not so much the 'air'. Which is good. I'm no longer an airhead! And, therefor, I'm not inclined to discuss (or argue about) my views, or those of others, of cables/interconnects and power cords. But I still hear and appreciate the music! |
I apologize if my post appears to be a futile "gripe." Realistic appraisal of old ears and what they can and cannot hear. Not taking that into account AND then espousing true doctrine and ridiculing the measurement gang. Not exactly entertaining perspective. (I never saw anyone wearing ear protection at any rock concerts or car races until just recently. My first rock concert was 1971, Deep Purple or Elton John. Memory cells gone the way of my hearing.) Joe |
