There were many threads on the topic of "audiophile fuses" on this forum, and I sure don't want to open old wounds and trench warfare. The fuse on my preamp blew suddenly two days ago, which prompted me to search for a replacement. That's when I came across the term "audiophile fuse" and the fact that they demand far-out prices. Deeper curiosity brought me to several other fora, where users posted glowing praises about their Zero fuses and other exotica. Now I am a scientist, but not a physicist or electrical engineer: so please enlighten me! How can a fuse have an audible influence on the signal, when the signal does not even pass through it? How can a fuse be "directional" when it deals with alternate current? I mean, if I recall my university physics, a fuse is basically a safety valve and nothing more. Am I completely missing an important point here? My scientific field is drug discovery, and because of this background I am thoroughly familiar with the power and reality of the placebo effect. I that's what I am seeing here, or is it real physics? I need objective facts and not opinions, please. I really appreciate your help!
Thanks to everyone and your at times spirited responses. And no, I am not a "puppy seal" asking apparently innocuous questions only to stir up the pot. I am a scientist and a curious one at that. I learned that a fuse is indeed part of the circuit, in series, not in parallel: not the signal circuit itself but the part that supplies the power for proper operation. I also learned that the fuse-material itself (alloy, etc.) shares the characteristics of a resistor, one that "blows" when too much current flows through it. As such, it would make sense, that in a highly dynamic amplifier setting, for split-seconds a sub-optimal level of current would be available to amplify the signal in true fidelity. In so far, the use of materials that have less resistance and yet still fulfill their safety-valve function would make sense - at least theoretically. But what about audio practice? Will one actually HEAR the difference? Or let me re-phrase: will someone with average ears (in my case age-relatedly compromised) and a sub $50K system with enjoyable but probably not stellar performance hear such a difference?
Yesterday I went to the annual "Exotics on Broadway" exhibition in Seaside, part of the world-famous Monterey Car Weekend. Exotic supercars and so-called hyper-cars, some of them costing multiple millions of Dollars, are on public display there for everyone to admire and talk to the developers/dealers for free. If you are into state-of-the-art automotive "art", that’s a place not to miss. I do love looking at these cars, I admit. But driving one? My Tesla S leaves still many of them in the rear mirror, and doing so without the ear-splitting noise of a 1,500 horsepower engine. The same goes for my stereo set-up: I tremendously enjoy what I got in terms of delivering listening joy every night - with Bussmann fuses, mind you. But I also know, that certain tweaks can indeed make a noticeable difference: I recently replaced my Mogami XLR ICs with all-silver, shielded ones from Taiwan, and yes: even I with my compromised hearing could immediately hear the difference; and no: no confirmation bias here, which I thoroughly understand on a professional level, and in any case, the new ICs were rather affordable. So, would I be able to hear such a difference by replacing my Home-Depot fuse (which came standard with my all-tube preamp)? Perhaps, but I don’t really think so; also, because exotic fuses - if they have their audio reason to exist - would probably exerting their "magic" in an amp rather than in a pre - and probably in a much more sensitive, i.e. costly, one, than the ones I use. But that I don’t really know. What I do know, however, that as scientists we always stay on the shoulders of giants (Feynman citation, I believe), and yes, a fundamental characteristic of good science is not to be dogmatic (we do not "believe" in science), but critical nevertheless. Let the data speak. In my case, the "data" are being delivered to my analytical brain through my ears, and not through a sophisticated measuring device, which might indeed pick up differences from audiophile fuses, albeit - at least in my case- inaudible ones. So be it: I "measure" performance along the coordinates of enjoyment and cost, like - I am sure - do many of you. And with the data at hand, and your delightful and sometimes informative comments, I will probably abstain of paying hundreds of $$ for a tweak that I might not be able to hear with the gear, and ears, I got. Again, thanks to all!
as scientists we always stay on the shoulders of giants (Feynman citation, I believe)
This predates Feynman by quite a few years. From Wikipedia:
[The] metaphor of dwarfsstanding on the shoulders of giants(Latin: nanos gigantum humeris insidentes) … expresses the meaning of "discovering truth by building on previous discoveries".[2]This concept has been dated to the 12th century and, according to John of Salisbury, is attributed to Bernard of Chartres. But its most familiar and popular expression occurs in a 1675 letter by Isaac Newton: "if I have seen further [than others], it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
If your ears and system could determine/resolve the difference in presentation, between the mentioned XLRs; I'll bet that you'd appreciate what better fuses provide.
As I mentioned: some come with a 30 day, satisfaction guarantee.
Were you to feel them not worth the $$, you'd lose nothing but the time and postage expended, to return them/it.
As an inquisitive scientist, isn't your interest piqued (that much)?
If there's a Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuse that fits your amp: $49.95* is all it would cost to sate any curiosity.
@tksteingraberrealize that the fuse replacement is just a short piece of conductor adjacent to the power cable. I don't think you'll ever hear a significant effect fro different coppers on such a short piece of conductor, just so it is heavy (not thinwalled tube). Now often the fuse holder is not great--it can't be soft copper or it will relax and not clamp the fuse. Often they are .....clears throat....whispers....steel. so a good fuse holder would be where to focus your interest.
That said, I'm as audiophile geek as anybody so I buy high conductivity copper 5mm bar from McMaster car, cut it into fuse lengths on my lathe, and polish with scotchbrite. I'll be glad to send you one if you want one.
@carlsbad2...when you mentioned 'slug', 1st thought 'metal bar, low gauge copper'; 2nd, a diy from an earlier 'confounded fused flail' that 'appeared' (not sounded, yet) worth spending less time on than you do...
But I applaud your efforts to fab and take a Good Slug @ it... aesthetics do count even for a lowly slug... ; ) 👍
3urd was 'homeless snail', soon to be ' budget escargot' ='d *bleah*🙄
@reimarc....If 'lectric exotic at the super bunting autopsychoic sounds like fun:
@reimarcThe power supply doesn’t merely allow proper operation, it is that which is the source of the actual music. Simply put, the amplifier circuitry modulates the flow of that power through the speakers. Ceteris paribus, the better the power supply, the better the sound.
not the signal circuit itself but the part that supplies the power for proper operation.
I don’t know how to make a good sounding fuse, but I have discovered that a cracked fuse holder can make most any fuse sound bad.
If a system is intended to be used at a level well below its capabilities to deal with current, then it makes building the fuse easier, it would seem. The fuse can be set to pop at a much, much higher current level than any normal listening session would produce. So the fuses internal resistance and any audible compression effects from the fuse beginning to heat can be minimized. I used to have some piezo compression drivers that had little light bulbs in them that acted as fuses of sorts. Instead of blowing, they would take to glowing, which would effectively compress the output to the tweeter. This is fine for a PA system but probably not acceptable to most HiFi enthusiasts.
Doesn’t the power supply include capacitors that store electrical power used by the device, including the capability to supply power for peak demands? Shouldn’t the power supply be designed so that the current draw through the fuse should never exceed the rated value under normal use? Otherwise, it would seem the power supply is under designed. I believe some may be putting too much emphasis on the role of the fuse in the power supply chain. Obviously, it is essential but, as long as it works properly, perhaps not a direct influence on the sonic end result?
Cleeds...I have extensive personal experience with fuses, including testing a pile of Synergistic Research fuses a few years ago...they were useless and risky (inaccurate current ratings) junk then, and still are silly and expensive nonsense. Quantum my a**. Call Nelson Pass or Dennis Had to discuss it further. If "magic" fuses actually did what they claim, everybody get on board with 'em....they don't and we're not.
... If "magic" fuses actually did what they claim, everybody get on board with 'em....they don't and we're not ...
If your "magic" fuses don't do what's claimed, that's snake oil! Fraud! Now, thanks to the work of Tuttle, et al., the template has been created for you to profit enormously from your wisdom while also serving your fellow audiophile. Here ya' go:
I’ve seen so many threads, not this one, where an expensive power cord manufacturer claims are declared snake oil because it measures the same as the PC obtained from Amazon. People forget that “science” is not a static thing and with time, our understanding of the ‘science’ changes. So, like the op, I tend to trust my ears, but will admit to the possibility of bias. The only thing that I know for sure is that when you hear a politician claiming something is “settled science”, it is time to find more tax shelters.
The adherents of the Naysayer Church will never accept that there exists a multitude of variables, when an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performance in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.
If their result differs from that of others, the aspects that they can't discern CERTAINLY MUST BE the product of the others' imagination (OR, "snake oil).
Of this they are certain: it CAN'T be THEIR system, room, or ears!
I have no opinion on whether they work because I have not done any serious listening to various fuses. But the current high end fuse that costs $600 makes no sense because, at that price one is probably better off bypassing the fuse. It is crazy to be in a situation where you would be saying something like: "Thank god the power transformer blew fast enough to preserve the fuse."
I had to jump in once more: mitch2 made a note-worthy comment about the role of capacitors in an amp or pre. They are there to satisfy demand for peak power in highly dynamic musical passages. The quicker they respond the better - and the more they cost: here, high cost directly translates into audio quality.
Many contributions seem to try relativizing the role of what they call "science" in assessing effects of audiophile fuses, going so far as to claim we don't even understand the "true" nature of electricity. Well, as far as every-day electricity is concerned, I think Maxwell gave us everything we need to make accurate predictions (which is what science is about). Yes, on the quantum level we might still be in the modeling phase, but that degree of granularity bears most probably no influence on the audio experience. I mean, even the LHC in Geneva uses the same basic electricity and electro-engineering principles, all the way to superconductivity. Now, room-temperature superconductivity might indeed breed a new and better generation of audio equipment, but just not yet. And no, I won't be using liquid Helium anytime soon to fire up my audio gear. As for all matters in life the same tenet holds for scientific claims: extraordinary claims warrant extraordinary evidence! The audiophile experience should not be a religion, lest we fall into the trap of "believe" vs. "evidence". My original question should have been more focused perhaps: "Can anyone in this esteemed forum share experiences - good or bad - with so-called audiophile fuses?" Formulating my question in this way should exclude theorizing on either side of the opinion-spectrum, namely dogma without supporting or damaging evidence. And to satisfy this demand, we do not even have to resort to Einstein or Maxwell, or Lord Kelvin with his infamous statement about human flight. No, we just have to sit down and listen: do we enjoy what we hear? Do we enjoy it more after exchanging one fuse for another? Do we perhaps hear new things in a familiar recording? It's really simple, actually, and quite down-to-earth. But it requires ear-wax removal - in the literal and metaphorical sense - to lead to accurate and valid and reproducible results. That's the only information I was after when posting my original question. Only AFTER we have the data from these experiences - hopefully with more users having similar experiences (moving towards statistical relevance here), should we begin to make sense of our observations, and perhaps even formulate a new hypothesis trying to explain what we observed that cannot be accurately explained by existing theories. That's how science works, not the other way around.
65 plus responses and nobody really tried to answer @reimarc’s questions. Not only can I not answer, but unless you improve the .10 cent fuse holder and the wires running to it, what’s the point?
How can a fuse have an audible influence on the signal, when the signal does not even pass through it?
I don’t believe that a fuse does have an audible influence on an audio signal, for the reasons presented in my previous post, among others.
How can a fuse be "directional" when it deals with alternate current?
I don’t believe that an input fuse subject to alternating current would display any different properties or sonic signature regardless of which way it is oriented. While electric current flows from higher electric potential to lower electric potential, in the case of alternating current, the flow of electrons is bidirectional, i.e. electrons flow in both forward and backward direction.
In case of direct current, flow of electrons takes place in only the forward direction so the flow of electrons is unidirectional. Therefore, if there were directional differences in fuses, they would likely only show up when used in a direct current application, IMO.
@reimarcalso asked about our experiences. Although I hear differences in a variety of different equipment, all speakers, and, to a lesser extent, cables, I have yet to hear what I consider a meaningful sonic difference between fuses after trying many including SR, Furutech, ACME, several from HiFi Tuning, and others.
Also, I have yet to read a comprehensive explanation of how a power line fuse should change the sound of an audio component given that regardless of the materials used, it’s job is to pass current up to a given amperage to a power supply consisting of a variety of other parts. I have also never read about any listening tests where the listener reliably identified different fuses without knowing which they were listening to.
Finally, you asked for opinions and I gave you mine. My system is posted (but not quite up-to-date) so you can see the gear I am using to develop my opinions. I do not care what others here believe or how they spend their money, so for those here like @rodman99999who want to turn this into a contest or dispute of one side against another, I simply don’t care.
Being so familiar with the LHC: you should also realize that the goal of it's use by the planet's best Physicists, is to determine (HOPEFULLY/one day) to determine what makes up the 95-96% of the universe, that the best in the world can't explain and how it all works.
They and it utilize " the same basic electricity and electro-engineering principles, all the way to superconductivity. " because that's the best they've got, to try to answer the questions how it all works.
As I've repeated constantly in these threads: For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
Anyone with a background in any of the natural sciences should be aware of those facts.
And the Cargo Cult wants definitive reasons for a fuse to make an audible improvement?
There is actually a reliability difference in fuse TYPES. ATO fuses are more reliable than 3AB or 3AG. Yes, in my days doing failure analysis, I found termination issues in 3AG fuses. There is a tiny tiny inductance with some cartridge fuses. Sonically? I think that was covered. 🤣
Some "Madison Ave. Engineers" suggest breakers sound better. Hmmm, resistive bimetallic, small point contacts, inductor and magnet? Not sure I would bet on that.
Jan Didden has a lot to say on fuses and protection circuits. Cordell and Self a little. Like everything, you have to pick tradeoffs. There is no perfect answer. Fuses may protect your speaker, but I can verify first hand, they so not protect MOSFET outputs! They do not protect for instability. They do not protect against over-heating. They do not protect for DC leakage or bias inaccuracies. My take away is you should use a fuse or breaker in your mains line where it has zero sonic effect and go to more advanced parameter monitoring for everything else.
My original question should have been more focused perhaps: "Can anyone in this esteemed forum share experiences - good or bad - with so-called audiophile fuses?" Formulating my question in this way should exclude theorizing on either side of the opinion-spectrum, namely dogma without supporting or damaging evidence. And to satisfy this demand, we do not even have to resort to Einstein or Maxwell, or Lord Kelvin with his infamous statement about human flight. No, we just have to sit down and listen: do we enjoy what we hear? Do we enjoy it more after exchanging one fuse for another? Do we perhaps hear new things in a familiar recording? It's really simple, actually, and quite down-to-earth. But it requires ear-wax removal - in the literal and metaphorical sense - to lead to accurate and valid and reproducible results. That's the only information I was after when posting my original question. Only AFTER we have the data from these experiences - hopefully with more users having similar experiences (moving towards statistical relevance here), should we begin to make sense of our observations, and perhaps even formulate a new hypothesis trying to explain what we observed that cannot be accurately explained by existing theories. That's how science works, not the other way around.
Why didn't you say so?
If you're looking for a survey regarding whether others have found them efficacious: I'm certainly not alone in my experience and enjoyment of improved fuse technology.
It's only logical; if audiophile fuses didn't serve to improve the presentation of more than just a few folks' systems, there would be no supply and/or demand, AT ALL.
Personally: my experience began with the Hi-Fi tuning Gold, which was the least expensive and easiest to obtain, installed in the Mains and B+ protection of my Cary tubed monoblocks. The improvement was obvious, with a marked difference in what I term "organics" (more real/less electronic, across the board).
Next were their Supreme fuses, with which I found even more openness, naturalness and texture of presentation.
Those last were experimented with, next to a pair of Synergistic Research SR20 fuses, only in the amps' B+, which I thought imparted an unnatural effect on my system's high freqs. Back to the Supremes and relaxation.
Last time a power tube went South and took out a B+ fuse, rather than wait to enjoy my sounds: I reinstalled an SR20 in that amp and found it to excel in presentation, over the other (RT to LT). However: by then my main speakers had morphed from Magnepans to a pair with coincident horn tweeters. A happy combination/variable. In went the other SR20 and: they've remained
I've always simply been certain to install all fuses in the same direction (according to labeling). So: never having experimented with swapping them, I have no experience to discuss.
I do have science to explain WHY such MAY make an audible difference, which will follow.
Were I not familiar with the theories, hypotheses and experimentation, that's gone on for so many decades before and since my years of higher education; I might never have tried a more expensive fuse.
That's just my experience with the fuses in my Main amp. There's been much more, in every other of the system's components, which have all had power supply modifications/upgrades (ie: faster/quieter rectifiers, capacitors, etc), before and after fuse swaps.
It's been my experience, the better the rest of the power supply: the more obvious the fuse's contribution to sound.
ie: Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works.
That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY.
The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing.
Whenever some highly educated person actually does discover exactly how electricity functions, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it.
Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's. Then came Feynman’s. For now; none of you can absolutely prove your statements (theories), regarding electricity, FUSES, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems.
The following articles, read in sequence, illustrate my point:
and I sure don’t want to open old wounds and trench warfare.
Then don’t question audiophile ________:)
I need objective facts and not opinions, please.
Wrong forum. Objective facts are tough to come by, because so many questions (and responses) are related to the subjective perception of sound quality.
So, as a scientist, after wading through this thread, I’m curious what your conclusion is, anecdotally of course:)
@macg19....Ah, but trench warfare is So back in fashion...
...and opening old wounds does allow for the search of infection,and its' byproduct..
Rot. ; )
Objective facts just spoil the mysticism of audioligion....the worship of the bottles filled with fire, the magical wires that lash the boxes of the faithful to the oracles that speak the volumes of the desire to be transported to the isles of Elsewhere.
The 'How' is trampled by the 'Ends'....the 'Means'?
Once again, as so many times before....subject to the Needs....*sigh*
Easily ignored...cost be damned, brushed aside, don't logic me, 'peasant'..
Accompanied by "....if you only knew the Truth, your idylls would fall like the ash of
Another suburban family morning Grandmother screaming at the wall We have to shout above the din of our Rice Krispies
We can’t hear anything at all Mother chants her litany of boredom and frustration But we know all her suicides are fake
Threads like this are why I don’t post much on audio forums. They are all the same. The person screaming the loudest is invariably the one with the least knowledge. Words, lots of words. Never shall a salient point be made. A discussion requires addressing specific points and bringing up new salient points. I guess when you only have one tool in your belt, you will use it all the time whether it works or not.
Here is a picture of a very cute kitten. It is as relevant to this discussion as most of the links posted. However, it has the advantage that it may make some people smile and it will induce calm.
@reimarc, I don't know the answer to your question. I don't even know if there is an answer to your question. After reading 80 replies I do know you will not find the answer here.
I don’t know the deep darkest secrets of quantum mechanics and how that effects the covalent bonds of the alloys that make up my car. I am not even sure that is a totally logical statement. I expect the engineers that designed it don’t either. I am quite certain that my capable mechanic knows even less. Whether I or they have this knowledge has no effect on the 0-60 time. Whether I or they have this knowledge will have no effect on measuring the 0-60 time. If I drop a heavy lead ball, it will fall to the ground in a very predictable manner, that I could calculate to a high accuracy if I knew the local gravity coefficient. Well to be honest, I couldn’t calculate it, but I am sure there are others who could. I don’t keep up on the latest research on gravity, but the last time I checked, we didn’t know how gravity works. Imagine that, not knowing how gravity works, but being able to calculate its effects to high precision. Heck I go through my day doing a great number of things correctly without knowing exactly how some things work. No problem though because I know the what. If I do this, I know what will happen. The how is inconsequential. The consequential is what. When someone can take all that how and turn it into a what that matters, I am all ears, literally and figuratively. @reimarc question is looking for a what. All the potential hows in the world don’t make a single what.
Apparently: you've overlooked the fact that the OP didn't change the question*, from 'HOW' to 'WHAT', until the second page (08-22-2022).
I've very seldom tried to present definitive answers to anything, when it comes to our cables, fuses, interconnects, lifters, but: there exists a plethora of possibilities, presented by the experimentation, theories and developments in the sciences/fields of QED, Physics and electromagnetism.
* My original question should have been more focused perhaps: "Can anyone in this esteemed forum share experiences - good or bad - with so-called audiophile fuses?"
No need @thecarpathian. I did check. We still don't know for sure how gravity works. Lots of theories. Nothing for sure. Now some think they have discovered a new force as well at the subatomic level.
Why are people extolling their ignorance? As a species we have developed outstanding descriptions of gravity and electro-magnetism. The descriptions are more complex than what you would be taught in freshman physics, but complexity doesn't equal a lack of knowledge. Listen to this guy.
I would posit that fuses are detrimental to audio (from the sound perspective) because they are non linear. Fuses are designed to be a cascading failure. The filament heats up as electrical current passes through it. As it heats up the resistance increases causing further heating. This filament is delicately balanced to ultimately heat up to the melting point at the rated current. Besides being a constriction point to the flow of electricity they are also a non linear constriction point.
The ideal fuse would be digital. That is it would have zero resistance up to the rated current and then go to infinite resistance- a step change. But the temperature of the filament in a standard fuse is fluctuating with current and therefore the resistance is changing. So the question is what do audio grade fuses do different?
Does an audio grade fuse act more like an ideal fuse? Does it have lower resistance or less variation in resistance up to the point of failure at rated current? Have these audio fuses been tested enough to insure that they will blow at the rated current?
If I had a mega Ohm bridge tester, I would compare the resistance values of a standard fuse side by side with an audio grade fuse at room temp, after cold soaking in a freezer and then after heat soaking in an oven at say, 400F. That would be interesting data.
Well, I have not auditioned or replaced any fuses in any of my systems. I have, however, tried and attest to the positive effects of many of the high-end tweaks out there including some of the products from Synergistic Research. As such, why would well respected companies want to put their reputation on the line if there was nothing to it?
My guess is that there really is something to it, but the explanation is hard to come by. How about trust your ears, we do that with virtually everything else.
@1extreme Think that's bad? I heard of folks who believe that some invisible deity controls the entire universe. And if you don't talk to it in your mind, you may burn forever.
...who will look me in the eye and tell me they believe the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Science can’t prove the earth is older than 6000 years. You only believe it can. To think otherwise makes you uncomfortable, I bet. So many look to science for comfort that dying is an escape from misery, grief and boredom. So not true.
I have some friends who are fundamentalist Christians ... don’t try to convince them otherwise with science because I know they are happier with their beliefs even though I know it is complete nonsense.
It looks like some of the measurementalists in this group are especially intolerant of religions that are not their own. That is a very bad look.
Thought the subject was audiophile fuse. Some of you are worse than my cat that has adhd. I am not a believer in the “science” of audiophile fuses, I have experimented with them and returned them all, ceramic fuses work fine for me. I do believe in a higher power also and for all we know it may have come here in a UFO.
I have had SR purples in my Primaluna pre and power for a couple of years and loved them, but it took about 20 hours of play to really start to hear what they were doing. At 50 hours the juice really started to come on.
A few weeks ago I added the SR "Master" fuse to my Holo Audio May Level 3 Kitsune DAC. The Holo May came with a "Nano Red" fuse which claimed audiophile level enhancement. The pricey Master fuse had a 30 day trial period, so I thought, "why not?" This fuse takes somewhat longer to break in than the Purples, but it has been worth the wait. There is more "solidity" and tonal accuracy along with sound stage enhancement with an increase in detail - clearer sustain and decay - all the goodies. The Master was played as much as I could within the 30 day trial period. At first the fuse sounded a bit stiff and flat footed, but then opened up after about 20 hours. Now after about 200 hours it has bloomed extraordinarily. Again, make sure you take the time to play it as much as possible within the 30-day window.
These are being played through Cornwall 4 horn speakers, and it may be that high sensitivity speakers show these fuses off better,
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