The grammatical error is simply a typo. Minor slip ups like these are common and eminently forgivable, especially if you are posting from a handheld device, It doesn’t help that, hey, sometimes your eyes just blur...
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...the "average" listener almost always had the "smiley" face set up on the bands. Over doing bass and high end. Look at today's more clever EQs (aka digital filters) and presto... smiley face. That's funny and true. I made that face. Growing up in the 60's and 70's , almost every preamp and receiver had tone and balance controls. I have an old McIntosh preamp, and when listening to vinyl I use tone control adjustments to improve the experience. |
Different people listen differently. Back in the 80s when Physical EQs were all the rage the "average" listener almost always had the "smiley" face set up on the bands. Over doing bass and high end. Look at today's more clever EQs (aka digital filters) and presto... smiley face. Simply put, most people like what they hear when set up that way. Reviewers and more advanced listeners tend to have less bass and highs are more "ideal". Designers and Engineers tend to chase the graphs. Aiming for as flat as they can. Room correction (digital or physical) have similar objectives. Over the years, even "budget" equipment sounds great to the average listener. Mostly because they engineer it to sound over bass'ed and tweaked high ends. I like reading the reviews and reviewing the graphs just to understand where I'm starting from. Then use the 1% rule to tweak each area to eventually get what I like. I have a very flat set of headphones which I try to keep flat as a reference. I can enable to disable room correction and EQ also to compare. Reviews are just that reviews. Just because a reviewer likes something doesn't mean you will, and the biggest gap of all is how your room and set up is. That's all your listening preference. Also remember, big reviewers are paid. This is a hobby, Some of us obsess over it, other just enjoy it, jumping in and out of the rabbit hole as the mood hits us. Reviews are just a starting point. IMHO. |
Not to mention identical hearing and knowing the reviewer’s musical values are identical to yours. I see a big problem therefore you are totally stuck when it comes time to either purchase equipment due to shops closing and the difficulty of taking equipment home to audition in your space. I hope you are not being serious with your statement but just making a general observation of how everyone’s musical journey and level of enjoyment is very unique. Find reviewers who you value their opinions and seem to be close to yours and use that as a starting point but yes the final verdict is up to you to make in your listening space. |
+1 @chowkwan |
Exactly... I did these experiments and it is my opinion...
It is why reviews dont have meanings in a singular way at all.. There is only meanings in statistical analysis of all reviews on each separate acoustic factors...
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Call me either a sucker or a fool, but for my past couple purchases I’ve just relied on mail-ordering from a couple of SoCal stores where I bought quality stuff before I moved to the oh-so-lovely-but-high-end-bereft wilderness. I must say, though, that I’ve never enjoyed listening to my stereo so much. Is it the better electricity you get in a rural clime? |
Hey @jjss49 You have a great list of components! How do you like the Carver? |
I listen to my system for hours everyday. I enjoy reading so called expert reviews and commentary. It's entertainment. I've become obsessed with the quest to achieve 2 channel audio nirvana. I own many puzzle pieces and I've determined in my acoustic space some pieces fit perfectly. I can't snap my fingers anymore, but I love to tap my foot. That's entertaining. |
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@larsman like my hifi system, I have some very good computer speakers... where as I am listening to my speakers reproducing the reviewed speakers I listen to my speakers enough to get an idea of how the reviewed speakers probably sound. Not exact but close enough. You should understand that a lot of reviewers have an insensitive of one sort of another to give glowing reviews and they could be giving me complete crap in their review. A demo therefore is always helpful. I would like to add that since my computer speakers sound really good then everything I hear should sound good..... but some demos don't. |
Great posts indeed! Thanks... It is precisely why reviews are useful analysed for each separate acoustic factors and especially with users and non pro-reviewers mainly... It is especially efficient with vintage or older products, because there exist more users reviews... Very new products are very difficult to assess with few reviews mainly by pro-reviewers if not impossible... We then must distinguish between users and pro-reviewers, and vintage and new products... But i purchased my amplifier, dac and headphones by reading carefully users products ... None were new products...
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Although I routinely read professional reviews, they are all essentially the same, gushing over soundstage, "micro detail" etc. They are generally useless. Does anyone recall a negative review of any product? I have an ARC Ref 6. On a lark, I went to CHATGPT and asked it to write an audiophile review of it. Here’s what came out: "The true essence of the Reference 6 lies in its exceptional sound performance. It takes the listener on a journey of sonic ecstasy, revealing nuances and subtleties within the music that were previously unheard. The preamplifier’s tonal accuracy, transparency, and dynamic range are simply breathtaking. The Reference 6 exhibits an uncanny ability to render recordings with a lifelike presence. The soundstage is expansive and three-dimensional, effortlessly recreating the original recording environment. Instruments and vocals are placed with pinpoint precision, allowing the listener to discern their individual characteristics and spatial cues. Furthermore, the Reference 6’s tonal balance is pristine, providing an accurate representation of the recording with no discernible coloration. The bass reproduction is tight, controlled, and impactful, while the midrange exhibits a captivating warmth and richness. The high frequencies are delicate, detailed, and extend with remarkable finesse, delivering an airy and extended treble response. The preamplifier’s transparency is exceptional, unmasking micro-details and subtle textures within the music. It unravels layers of information, revealing the true intentions of the artists and the emotions they convey. The Reference 6 possesses a sense of musicality that is rare to find, evoking an emotional connection with the listener that is deeply moving." Sound familiar? You could probably replace ARC REF 6 with any higher end preamp and this would be the likely review. One of the things that I tend to like about professional reviews is the choice of music to review the equipment. I like to take that same song and see if I can hear what the reviewer is talking about on my own system. But I couldn’t base a big purchase decision on a professional review. User reviews, on the other hand, have limited utility because they are so dependent on the other equipment and the room itself. But at least with a user review, they can call it like they see it, rather than sugarcoat it. granted, when someone here is motivated to review a product that they just purchased, it is usually a favorable one, but there is often value in, "I just bought this and replaced that, and this is how I think the sound has improved . . ." There is no good solution other than to listen for yourself, take a leap of faith and buy sight unseen, or get something that has a return policy. |
@frankmc195 - but is a review with a demonstration worth much more? You're not hearing the system being reviewed; you're hearing your own system. The only kind of demonstrations I find useful are ones in my dealers' showrooms, like the speaker audition I had yesterday. |
Magico are extremely accurate and fast speakers. Almost every setting I have heard them has either had less than ideal electronics or a room that was not ideal and they sounded terrible. You get speakers of this high a quality and you need an appropriate room and carefully chosen electronics of they may sound terrible. But under the right conditions they are among the very best. They are unforgiving. |
I found when shopping for speakers a while back the then newish Magico A3’s had many glowing reviews from professional reviewers. On the other hand there were significantly more criticisms on audio forums, including here, from members who had listened to them at shows or dealerships. The sometimes harsh criticisms provided things to listen for and evaluate at demos. I eventually did select the Magicos, but am glad to have been able to weigh in the negative inputs on both the A3’s, and the other speakers on my short list, and not overlook aspects of their performance that might be potentially annoying over the long run. Mike |
8th-note, the one thing you’re more likely to get from Audiogon and other sites forum members is honesty about the shortcomings of various products. Site members will often point out shortcomings of a product that many professional reviewers are loathe to bluntly address.
To the point! I recall a while back when I needed to replace my car tyre inflator. I read several professional reviews and was disappointed to find that none of them mentioned one huge drawback of most of their recommendations. Namely that those with a screw on type connector were not only incredibly fiddly to use (risk of thread stripping etc) but in the time it took to remove the connector there would also be a significant loss of tyre pressure too. I couldn't help but think that either these reviews had been bought or else that the 'reviewers' had simply been echoing each others opinions without testing these devices themselves. Perhaps some of those old stories were true? Perhaps some 'talented' reviewers are actually able to review products without feeling the need to unbox them first? |
I completely agree. Even though I take user's comments with a very large grain of salt, they are valuable because they represent a base of actual experience in different systems. I enjoy reading and commenting about this hobby which is why I put up with the disturbing amount of trash talk and drivel on this and other forums to ferret out the good stuff. Sometimes owners will actually post a cogent comment about their own experience with a piece of gear that can be very helpful. For example, the comments from a few users who own the Jay’s Audio CDT3 plus the review in Stereophile & a couple of YouTube reviews made me a buyer (it’s arriving today!). It was reassuring to hear firsthand experience that confirms the quality of this unit. But this is a perfect example of buying a piece of gear that I can’t demo. recklesskelly & mahler123 - If you read the audio magazines carefully you will see that indeed, a few major advertisers get bad reviews. PS Audio and B&W are two notable examples. |
@mahler123 I will look and see when I get home rom this trip. 👍✌️ |
Got any pix of the hot 8th Grade Teacher? I tend to agree with your view point in that seems like the biggest advertisers in the audiophile magazines never seem to rate negative reviews. I also just love reviews that say something like "After my component exploded when I first plugged it in, the CEO took his private jet to my apartment and personally installed the replacement". Of course we can all expect a similar level of service |
Great post! thanks... It is precisely why statistical of acoustic factors over great number of anonymus reviewers and not only chosen well known reviewers is important...
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Reviews in audio magazines including Audio, Stereophile, Stereo Review, etc., helped me a lot when I started to put together my system many years ago Also hours of listening with an audiophile friend of mine in his system gave me clues what I need to buy, what fits my budget, and options for future upgrades. I am very thankful to my audiophile friend for guiding me, and high-end stores in Colorado (Listen Up, Soundings, SoundTrack, etc) letting me take components home for audition. Reading helped me to navigate in the Hi-Fi World where there are many different ways to reach your goals. Without reading reviews, you don't know what is out there regardless of whether you can afford or not. Reviews also sharpened my critical listening capabilities which is the ultimate test where you can decide whether a particular component meets your expectations or not. Finally, a thank you note to fellow hobbyists that I got to know in forums such as this one. They have all contributed helping me to get where I am today. |
8th-note, the one thing you’re more likely to get from Audiogon and other sites forum members is honesty about the shortcomings of various products. Site members will often point out shortcomings of a product that many professional reviewers are loathe to bluntly address. You certainly less likely to get the expertise of professional reviewers, but you will be much more likely to be exposed to the other side of the coin on any components performance. That info is helpful to know prior to going to the audio store to listen to product demos. Mike |
After enough time (years in my case), I found a few reviewers who have reviewed gear I've heard or owned, own, or thinking about owning. Their reviews jive very well with my own impressions of said gear. I came to understand what Kal Rubinson means when he says "The purity of the voices was never Just two examples, but if I'm in the market for something, I can trust that those reviews, if available, will give me a good idea what I would experience with the item in question. There is so much gear out there now, and so much of it good gear, that I would be lost without some point of reference. |
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Audio reviews are like wine reviews. I like to hear what experienced and knowledgeable reviewers have to say about gear (and wine). I’ll never sit in front of some of the high end gear nor drink a bottle of Petrus, but I like to read about it. I’ve run across new music reading reviews and find how the reviewer describes aspects of the music produced. Helps me when I’m listening to my rig. Reviews have influenced some of my buying decisions; most notably my move into electrostatic speakers. When I wanted to try some new speakers, I remembered many times that reviewers compared a speaker midrange to Quads; or they’d remind the reviewer of the first time they heard Quads, etc. With nothing more than that, I found some ESL 63s here on AGon for a reasonable price. Never looked back. Because I think engineering matters, I like reviews that provide measurements and subjective commentary. But the numbers aren’t the whole story. As @mahgister points out, the story is told in how gear fits together into a system and into your acoustic environment. |
I would never buy a component based solely upon a review but that doesn’t, in my mind, render them useless. When contemplating an upgrade, my approach is to gather as many impressions/opinions as I can about products I might consider. This includes reviews as well as comments posted on this forum and others and in conjunction with specs, helps me narrow the field. Once I have a short list of candidates, I research which can be auditioned at home, which further reduces the number of contenders. While I don’t assert this is the only way to go, it’s worked for me, so far. By contrast, auditioning gear in show-rooms has not. Each to his/her own. Discover what works for you. |
I agree @8th-note and @testpilot Found my new preamp: Icon Audio LA4 MKIII from a review and Product of Year selection in TAS. There are very few retailers who handle it. Very pleased with it to say the least. |
Just for the record, I've bought most of my system based on reviews and reputation without hearing it first. I was never interested in restricting my buying decisions only to gear that I could demo at home. In fact, I have never demoed a piece of gear in my system before I bought it. I don't know how many people out there are like me but I suspect that it's quite a few - they are just rare on this forum or they won't admit it. Look at all the people who gush over their Chinese ladder DACs that they never auditioned before they got them. How did they even know about these DACS if they never read a review? I've never had the time to mess around with home demos. I have subscribed to Stereophile and TAS for about 40 years and I carefully read the reviews of anything that I am interested in buying. I've never bought a component that was reviewed well that sounded bad. I have carefully auditioned speakers in showrooms, however, The pair of Mirage M3si I bought in the 90's are a good example. They are big, weigh over 100 lbs each and there was no way I was going to lug home the demo pair and try them out. They sounded great in the showroom and they sounded great in my system. My current speakers, Thiel CS6, I bought from a friend at a very good price and I did listen to make sure they worked OK but I didn't try to make any judgements. I bought these speakers based on the outstanding reviews they received and sure enough, they sound stunning. If I upgrade now I would go with a pair of MBL 101 E MkII speakers. I've heard them at a couple of audio shows and they were amazing. But the nearest dealer is hundreds of miles away from me and even if they were across town there is no way I would spend the time and effort to schlep a pair in my house even if the dealer would let me (oh God, what if I damaged one). I would rather make the transaction as simple as possible and ask the dealer for a discount because I'm an easy customer to deal with. I don't know how most of the Agon forum participants have the time to adhere to a "demo only" policy but I sort of feel like they need to get a life. The time I spend with my system is valuable and I want to be listening to music, not auditioning gear. Lastly, I would absolutely trust the opinion of professional reviewers who have heard a wide range of components over a bunch of audio forum hacks who mostly tout the components they have purchased to prove how wise they are. If someone doesn't read professional reviews then it indicates that they only get their information from forums or dealers. In each case the sources of information are totally biased toward what they own or sell. No thanks. I'll get my audio guidance from folks who are paid professionals who do this for a living and have a reputation to protect. |
@roxy54 a run on sentence. 😂 I tend to do that after an edible. Was a hard day kayaking. I am going to start calling you Mrs, Carvello, she what my 8th grade English teacher and she was hot. |
We can easily class reviews in Reviewers i trust, reviewers i dont know, and reviewers i distrust etc... Speaking to do a statistical analysis of each acoustic factors with the specific words picked to describe them in reviews DONT PRECLUDE what is evident to do, classify the reviewers, once we did had identified our precise needs...
«One of my hand think the other walk» --Groucho Marx 🤓
This is precisely WHY we are better to NEVER choose only reviewers with our esthetical and taste ONLY but especially MANY unknown people, average audiophiles who will pick other words to describe what a PAID pro reviewer will avoid and mitigate: the negative impact of his words choice...Infirmation rule ,confirmation goes after... Chosing audio component has nothing to do with "taste" , we dont even know really the needs, the room, the ears, the components of the reviewer we like because we identify ourself with one aspect of his written ghost personnality ... Chosing audio components is about "acoustic factors" evaluation and impact not about "taste"... What is not said in a review matter the most, and what is negative is the most important and must be investigate in a comparison with the words choice of others reviewers to infirm or confirm ... What is positive means something ONLY by the added numbers of reviewers ...
«My two hands works better together without me»--Groucho Marx 🤓 «My hands need my brain more than me sometimes»--Groucho Marx 🤓 |
I’ve bought numerous components over the years based generally on Herb Reichert’s reviews (stereophile) and to me, he is dead on with his reviews and a joy to read. I also like the fact that he often reviews equipment the average guy can afford...for example, pioneer plx1000, Hana el, wharfedale 225, linton, rogue sphinx, goldenear brx, border patrol dac, etc etc etc...I own several of the aforementioned, and find that they sound as he described and are good value for your money. |
Interesting conversation. +1 @jjss49 "the generalized question...is how does one sort through what is available to draw salient, accurate, reliable conclusions upon which to act?" +1 Mahgister's idea that we do need multiple reviewers to help us converge. I disagree that this does not also include "taste" because we need to find a reviewer who communicates to us, aesthetically. So it's about both. +1 Wolf garcia. Sometimes reviewers are fun to read and can lead to new experiments by us. They re-wire how we conceive of something and that changes what we do. That's useful. +1 bdp24 Expanding the audio vocabulary not only helps us describe what we hear, we hear differently and better with an expanded vocabulary. There are studies on smell which show this, too. More words increases acuity and sensorial perspicuity. +1 @nonoise Reviews are a starting point, for sure. Sometimes I read reviews after I purchase, for confirmation or to see if I can now hear what the reviewer was hearing. Sometimes it's a mid-point. I've heard some gear and want to go listen again; but, in the meantime, I check out a review. My main problem with reviews is that they are too positive. Critical or negative reviews have a higher burden of proof; they're forced to make a more detailed and stronger argument. To take one example, Herb Reichert is a great describer of gear and what he hears, but I sometimes find that he's too in love with his own purple prose, prose that sells 40k speakers is win win for him, but it doesn't advance criticism very significantly. Just helps rich people part with their money with a better excuse than "I liked the buttons." |
