https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2832731
Agree with Mahgister. Chasing hifi "highs" is logarithmic similar to power required for drag racing or top speed, e.g., the Veyron achieved 253mph with 987hp whereas the Super Sport achieved 267 with 1183hp.
??? Where Does "High End" Start ???
There are terms we in this hobby use to describe certain characteristics of the components or sound evoked...Without fail,the terms entry level,mid-fi & high end will show up in component reviews or conversations regarding equipment components...
So exactly how do we define these terms in absolutes?I understand there are components that,in this day & age,outperform their asking price in orders of magnitude but even if they do,they will invariably be tagged as entry level,mid-fi or high end simply based on their asking price..
Assuming entry level starts at say $500.00 per component,where does that end & mid-fi start,$2500.00 per component,$3500.00,$4500.00,$5000.00?
How far does that pricing structure go until you consider a component to be "high end"?
What are YOUR PERSONAL thoughts on this subject?
120 responses Add your response
Y'all are all going about this the wrong way. Cost is no longer an objective measure of entry level or Low-Fi, Mid-Fi, true Hi-Fi or high end due to the ability to buy things at great discounts. Therefore: Entry Level -- sounds decent at normal volumes, some loss of highs and lows at loud volume, includes integrated components that are very inexpensive. Movies and pop music sounds good. Mid-Fi, investor/researcher-type audio hobbyist -- components and speakers that play loudly and cleanly to a point where you can hear any music, free of distortion, in any room of your home... while vacuuming. Pinnacle Hi-Fi -- similar to previous, can hear any music clearly, cleanly, free of distortion with the windows up and you're mowing your yard with a Honda push mower 🙂
|
I agree with the people who stated that high end is not a matter of money. My definition of high end is the playback of recorded music which approaches a live performance. I believe that my system does so: Magnepan 3.7i, REL subwoofer, Conrad Johnson amp and pre-amp, Technics S1200 turntable and Marantz SACD player. |
High end system/room started with the minimal acoustical threshold satisfaction experience... For example i listened non stop since two days the integral of " I Musici " Vivaldi works because i cannot stop listening because the sound quality is much better in my actual system than anything i ever enjoyed... It is a system /room well done at peanuts costs... I cannot stop hearing beautiful sound with no real negative trade-off ... Is my 1000 bucks system high end ? Not at all by all means but it feel like it is... Acoustics basics with electrical control basic , mechanical control basics with synergy between the pieces and coming back to the right dac (SPS French Nos dac) did the job... Did i want a better and bigger system ? Not at all because i dont need it ( our needs vary in time as well as our budget ) and dont want to anyway, i am too proud of my works with a basic system able to reach his own optimal level workings... I pity anyone with a costlier system who do not know how to reach even minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold ... It is a work asking for months of thinking each time i had done it (4 times in my case with 4 different systems in two different room with one TOP high end headphone system then three relatively low end speakers system) |
The car comparison analogy is both useful and wrong. For hypercars there is a measurable difference between the 911 Turbo and the Lexus ES based on track performance, 0-60 mph, 0-100 kph, top speed, etc. Many high-end audiophiles are averse to measurements of their gear in terms of SINAD, IMD, identification of actual value of cables, etc. They insist their "car" is performant because it costs a great deal and has a pretty case. The truth in modern audio equipment is that measurements show that very cost-effective DACs and amps and speakers perform extremely well. This shows the flaws of the high-end car analogy. Until audiophiles start taking measurements seriously they will be victims of marketing in a way that no car aficionado would ever do! |
Like mechanics basics has nothing to do with car pricing classification, a good sound system /room has nothing to do with pricing of audio design pieces.. The fact that better design cost more is a common place fact promoted to be the audiophile supreme goal when our brain is wipe out by marketing instead of studying basic acoustics understanding about system/room... I say that because i remember my own brain wash when i begun to dream about a good audio system and almost everybody as usual talked mainly about brand name purchase pricier and more pricier till emptying our wallet..
|
I asked chatGPT. It provided a great analogy: Think of it like cars:
It ranked my system: So, your system as a whole sits in a “bridge zone” between mid-fi and hi-fi. You’ve outgrown mid-fi in most areas, but to an audiophile purist, the R11s keep you from being “all the way high-end.” Maybe a BMW M5. I can live with that. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Entry level is what I could, with some strain, afford when I was in my teens. Mid-level is what I could, with little strain, afford when after I graduated from college and got my first/second jobs. High level is what I could, with little to no strain, afford when I was in my mid thirties and up, Ultra high level is what I could now purchase but probably be embarrassed to admit I had spent that much on XXXXX., |
I think it’s a tremendous service to the community to provide diligent measurements of gear that point to the most accurate reproduction capabilities! The additional angle that arises is, of course, how to effectively integrate those systems into rooms using DSP, room treatments, good speaker choices, REW, Dirac, and so forth. That’s real hi-end stuff when you get to the point that you feel confident about your frequency response curves into Dirac from your calibrated microphone, the entire chain is sublime, and the sound is delicious! |
@devinplombier wrote:
+1 |
Where Does "High End" Start? Like @wsrrsw mentioned, it's a state of mind, but it might start at the point where you consider yourself an Audiophile and realize a whole other world of audio equipment. I don't remember the term High-End used growing up. It's when I learned that shops like Victor's Stereo, Paul Heath, Audio Consultants, and Quintessence Audio existed beyond Pacific Stereo, Playback, Musicraft, Midwest Hifi, and their ilk. |
You are completely right in my book ....I repeated this here for years... Subjectivist audiophiles and objectivist few specs measuring obsession are focussed as twin brothers are on the "Gear piece" specs for one group or taste for the other group...Not on the system/room/ears-brain ... The two group ignore the optimization process of their system/room especially the acoustics and psycho-acoustics part...
|
ASR: "All amps sound the same, just get the one with the best SINAD. Ditch your preamp, it only adds distortion. 192 Kbps is all the digital resolution anyone ever needs. Just buy whatever that’s rated Golfing Panther and you’ll do just fine". Audiogon: "My $3000 network switch sounds stunning. You need to invest at least 30% of the cost of your system in cables. A good USB cable costs $1500, but some $500 ones are said to sound decent. Caelin personally recommended these speaker cables and they are such game changers that I will never need new speakers again! Best $15,000 I’ve ever spent! You get what you pay for!". Both of the above are attempts by people unable to decide for themselves what sounds good from what doesn’t, to quantify the value of hifi gear through criteria unrelated to sound quality. My two cents here is that both extremes are doing the community a disservice. |
If we disregard all this expansive language, the goal for many of us is to reproduce the recorded music in such a manner as to be as accurate as possible to the source. The best approach to this goal is to choose DACs and amps that have the maximum measureable SINAD, IMD, etc., and speakers combined with room impacts that provide an ideal, measureable reproduction accuracy. That’s why it is best to rely on professional measurement resources like Erin’s Audio Corner, Stereophile measurements, and Audio Science Review as a first blush for finding extraordinary audio components. We can also rely on them for calling into question all the silliness about cables, power conditioning, cable lifters, and related audiofoolery. Then we get to real hi-end stuff, equipment that performs optimally regardless of cost or heritage. |
I've always thought of it more as in brands rather than price..... I am going to date myself pretty quickly with the brands, but none the less, everyone will get it. Denon, NAD, Yamaha, entry level audiophile. and occasionally, each brand would step into midfi. Adcom, Sumo, maybe a Hafler bridged into midfi.... Conrad Johnson, Threshold, Audio Research started High End.... Of course none of this is absolute Today, Brands like Schiit, go entry level and tip toe into mid as do others, but in general brands do target this way. As product improves, there are some entry level priced products that are very good. There is more blurring and a ton of opinion, but when is that not the case in this hobby. |
"Absolute? The point at which your significant other gets really p*ssed at your most recent purchase." Hold on here. You're supposed to tell them????“ I don’t have anything to add on the definitions of HEA, mid-fi, etc, but today, the wife and I were discussing my most recent purchase (Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme). She was objecting to how much I spent, and recognizing how she would react, I was initially hesitant to tell her about the purchase. “Don’t you think I’d notice a new piece of audio equipment?”, she says. Me: “Well, I’ve had it now for several months.” Crickets . . . Later, while sitting in our family room with my audio gear, she said “Okay, which one is it?” I pointed to it saying “Three silver knobs.” She didn’t ask what it was or what it does. |
I am an old fart at 70 years old and i don't know what you would call my system. Some would say mine is low end but i don't care, its sounds good to me. Im a tube guy (surprise) and I do my own work on them. Rebuilt HK Citation II Rebuilt HK Citation I Rebuilt Thorens TD124 PH 16 Phono preamp Fixed my 16X16 room. Probably the best thing i did to improve the sound Rebuilt 4 NLA Advents stacked. I was a friend of an engineer at Advent and he told me what is best to get them to another level. I like the sound a lot and i had many people listen to it and they cant believe how good it sounds. Sounds good to me and I don't have near the money of some higher priced system that dont come close to mine. One of these days I will upgrade the speakers but I'm not paying 10,00 + for a smidgen of improvement.
All old stuff like me (lol)
|
While I agree with AudioTroy, that only defines our true hobby’s goals in one dimension.
|
Luckily for me, I am old enough to remember when "high-end" was not even a thing. I think those words might have become a concept in the 80’s? 90’s? I started buying equipment in the seventies at University Stereo in L.A. I think I spent $500 on an entire system and it sounded good to me. Then I worked at a box store that sold stereo. The guys who worked there talked me into Dynaco book shelf speakers. Well, they sounded very good for maybe $300 for the pair. If I’d heard the word "high-end," I would have thought those Dynacos must have been right up there. I won’t bore you with all the steps I went through: ARC phono preamp, McCormack amp, Apogee Slant 8 speakers. What in the world could have sounded better? As I made more money, I upgraded, and in my mind every upgrade sounded fantastic, so it was high-end to me. I have purchased new and used equipment and even inherited some equipment. I would say the retail value of my system is now around $70K, but again some I purchased used and I have a twenty-year-old amp (Hovland Radia--I love it!) which I inherited. Maybe I’ve spent more than $70K over very many years, selling things I wanted to upgrade. I have no idea, to tell you the truth. It’s just as high-end to me as the $500 system I bought from University Stereo in 1970. Why is it all high-end to me? I love music! I have to have it around me. So anything that produces music and fits my budget has always been high-end. Still, look at me now in my old age having spent so much money on stereo equipment. It’s not the equipment I love, it’s the music it produces. And after all the changes I’ve made, I have discovered a house sound. Not too analytical, but not too sloppy. Enjoy the music. Don’t fret if you don’t have the cash for bigger speakers or more watts per channel. Trust me, if you love music, it’s all high-end. |
Your friend Mike is right. Incidentally, the top comment featured an interesting observation:
|
@horace_durrant Who is to say, if you are happy then it's HE. |
@dayglow “As more posts come in the anger….. becomes more apparent” You may have a good point.
This discussion is becoming more of a comparing willies debate. Can a smaller well designed one that bats well above its weight beat a bigger shinier bendy toy one? It can be quantified with any feedback given for both possible scenarios. If a friend for example enjoyed the performance and eagerly wants to be invited back again.
@willie-t “l found my sweet spot” may have put his finger right on it. |
| Post removed |
The premise of this post is wrong. There is a threshold of cost, which is a lot lower than you'd think, where marketing and snake oil take over, and you're not getting any improvements in sound. In general, you will find amazing speakers in the $1500-$2000 range that will embarrass speakers that cost much more. Everything else doesn't matter much. Find an AVR with enough power and a SINAD above 70, tnt standard, cheap 12AWG OFC cables. That's enough for hi-fi, assuming your room and acoustics are setup properly. |
It’s all a matter of perspective. Everyone’s ears are different and the way a system sounds for your taste is what matters. In this forum, you might run into a bit of snobbery because of cost. Cost may have much to do with quality components, but may not be the sound for everyone. I have heard a system of $5,000 run all over $70,000 of stereo equipment. Why? Not sure, the speaker phasing might have been wrong. The components connected to each other may have had an Impedance mis- match? The room also was not good. The 50k speakers may have not been broken in? Who knows, but I heard it. I am very sure, if all components are matched that in most cases price can matter. But how good is good before the next 5 to 10 thousand dollars makes.... how much difference? You can have a great sounding system for around 5k that will take much more dollars to beat. Again, it depends on your taste in music, sound, what you like to hear. Price might not matter so much. Its an opinion for the individual . |
@whart wrote:
That’s just it: speaker systems that purported to do something beyond the norm. This was about large, subs- and tweeter augmented true full-range (often panel) speaker systems when outboard active configuration was actually thought of as an approach to expand on the passive speaker potential, and not as a subject inviting endless debate over passive vs. active. I don’t see how this has been carried over into the present day mentality and realm of "high-end" speakers in any way effective, except for a select range of over-luxuriated statement systems that tend to come off as oddities at ludicrous, out-of-reach price levels. Now high-end has its share of being a faux, pretentious endeavor more about pricing, identity, status and entitlement than an open-minded exploration in pursuit of raw performance; a regurgitation of what’s basically the same low efficiency concept in different clothing, "cultivated" ad nauseum (at progressively higher prices) and from a physical package that’s always less than it could be. Price can be a factor, yes, but as I like to quip: until it isn’t. What I mean by that is that at some point one needs realize how a given package and design approach can only be improved so much with expenditure alone. Maybe it’s time to change the perspective and take a different approach: what’re the true bottlenecks of this system, and how can I lessen their influence in a broader, more explorative sense? True high-end mentality, from my chair, is taking that into consideration and seeing the bigger picture, the forest the trees, and then further improve from that, or these coming outsets. Price alone has become too much of factor as a validation means, indeed speaking of progressive pricing as that which defines "high-end" carries nothing of importance to actually elucidate what it’s about. |
Exactly right! And we do not take the cost of a system as a meter of our acoustical satisfaction nor as a meter of a system acoustical value.. All is in the way we optimize it... For sure my low cost amplifier even well optimized will not beat a very costlier well done designed and well optimized system...(if the costlier system is not well optimized it may be another story though) I must specify this because some people taking me for an idiot think that i put my low cost system on the same level as all the costlier beautiful system i had seen here in the virtual pages... my point is: any system must be optimized nervermind his price... With my low cost one i reach the level of "the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold"... It is enough for me , my needs and my budget...
Give me money i will optimize any chosen system at any price... Then i will reach "the maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold" But in the money you will gave me add the cost of a perfectly well designed acoustical dedicated room, i will not install a 200,000 bucks system in a room made of resonators made of plumber plastic etc (mine was homemade at peanuts costs) |
You might say there are two ways to be an audiophile. One is to study, learn, listen, search, find. The other is to spend a lot of money. Some folks do both. Which one do you want to be? I kinda wish people stopped talking about money all the time. The tenor of this pursuit should never be money. You will notice that accomplished audiophiles rarely, if ever, mention money.
|
it’s amazing, and a little bit sad, how the relative amount of financial resources expended on a hi-fi system is such a point of division. Everyone has their own budget representing what they are willing and able to spend on a system. If someone is able to use that budget to get something that is satisfying, well, they are in the winners circle. I’m also amazed that there are people who claim to know what motivates folks who they don’t know, can’t name, and will never meet to make certain buying decisions. I don’t know what is in someone’s mind when they buy hi-fi gear unless they tell us. I assume, and maybe it’s an incorrect assumption, that whether someone spends $5000. or $250,000 on a set of speakers, for example, they do so because with the information they have, they believe it will provide a satisfying listening experience in the room they have set up for a price they are willing to pay. How could you assume that someone you don’t know made that decision out of ignorance or arrogance? Lots of long distance Mind readers in the audiophile community. No reason to fixate on how other people spend their money. Take care of your own. |
Of two thing one or the other : We define high fi by pricing...( i refuse this because i heard one million bucks system sounding bad) Or we define it by the optimization learning process necessary to make any system/room able to reach his potential..
Why?
Because there is no relation between a system/room ,at any price, before and after the optimization process.. No relation at all... ( i suppose a minimal level of synergy already given between the gear pieces here)
I know for a fact that most people dont know what their system/room optimal level S.Q. is because they dont know how to optimize it...They prefer to buy than to learn...It takes times...If their budget is low they resign to an unsatisfying experience... It is why they upgrade uselessly half the time to shift the pain for a moment ... The other half upgrading could be motivated by absence of budget constraint or synergy lackings...
|
Interesting thread. I personally think high-end is an eye-of-the-beholder assessment. How many dollars does it take to reach nirvana? Probably as many opinions as there are people to form them. I'm reminded of something the late Sir Kenneth Clark (historian, author, TV presenter, and crashing bore) once said on his series "Civilisation," (the British spelling): he couldn't exactly define civilization, but he knew when he was in its presence. That's how I feel about high-end audio--I flatter myself that I can appreciate it when I hear it, but what makes it so is not easily translatable into words. Or dollars, come to that. As for our opinions on the subject, let's remember this astute Will Rogers quote: "If you laid all the economists end to end, they'd face all different directions." |
I’m thinking it’s an ever changing bullseye. For example, back in the day, I bought Audio Research’s top of the line preamp, the SP3a for under $600. Today, I think their top of the line preamp the Ref 6SE costs like $23k. Inflation and new technology changes prices. |
@freediver No need to shout. Reviewers are paid to promote and sell a product, the best way to do that is convince the potential buyer their getting more for the money. One needs to be their own reviewer, the more time. effort and knowledge towards this hobby this will become a useless question(Where Does High End Start?) There are no absolutes or answers to every question is this hobby a grey area(subjective) exists. Those that accept this fact are much better off. |
"Punches well above it’s price point" has nothing to do with High-end or Ultra-high end. This is about how good the value proposition is. Schitt being one example mentioned earlier. Dan D’Agostino is another. Great products, beautiful industrial design, but expensive. Several brands compete well at half the cost or even less. I don’t think you need to define high-end as brackets/price points to discuss audio. No different than two guys with two different Corvettes. 1 is worth $100K the other is worth $40K. They both belong to the same club. |
I see a lot of replies stating High End doesn't have a fixed price point,that price doesn't reflect sound quality etc.. |
Clearly it had nothing to do with the Indians since they were using smoke signals. And I don't think caveman really cared. Maybe Mozart was responsible but I think he was deaf. Didn't Thomas Edison invent the turntable so maybe he should get all the credit. I do not think you can assign a dollar limit to when hi-fi begins. If you did it would have to be above $2500 since you can't discern Quality music below this level. This is a difficult question. |
There is no way to establish parameters for any performance metric, never mind an overall assessment of what is high-end, or whatever level of performance. Dollars don't necessarily figure into this at all. If one's priorities in sound reproduction match a particular product's strengths, it can be reasonably dubbed the "best" even if it is modest in price. For example, the Quad 57 speaker is so captivating in some respects that a lot of people think it is unrivalled even to this day. It has no deep bass, cannot be played very loud, and has a lot other limitations, but, I would not argue with anyone thinking it is the best speaker ever made. There are so many different paths one can take to achieving a personal high end system and no one would agree on all of the choices someone makes. A local dealer who makes custom speakers and electronics as well as selling some quite expensive branded gear, will recommend some gear that others would find shockingly inappropriate in ultra expensive systems. For example, he recommends reconditioned Thorens 124 turntables in systems that are well past six figures in price. Even more shocking is that most of his demonstrations are done from a music server and that server is a Sonos device feeding very nice DACs. When people ask about a server, he recommends that they get a Sonos from Best Buy (he doesn't even sell them). |
