Well, if it's not working stop doing it. Everything you could want to know about cleaning vinyls is here:
https://thevinylpress.com/precision-aqueous-cleaning-of-vinyl-records-3rd-edition/
Good luck and happy holidays.
"Cleaning" Vinyl Makes It Worse Not Better!
I"m using a spray 'advanced vinyl record cleaning solution' with a cleaning cloth.
It creates GUNK in the grooves which can be fixed by cleaning the needle 5-7 times during playing one side.. It gets into the grooves and fixes the problem. I'd rather find a better way to clean the discs. Sounds dumb, I know.
What am I doing wrong?
Please Help!!
56 responses Add your response
Yes, @viridian recommends that booklet that offers a great review of cleaning techniques. I think many just use distilled water in an ultrasonic cleaner, of which there are many to choose from, each with their own advantages. |
You are loosening, but not removing junk that the stylus is digging out. You need to get the gunk out before playing. Advanced stylus profiles get deeper into the grooves than the spherical and elliptical they were played with previously. For ’normally dirty’ lps’ I’m thinking of trying a compact ultra-sonic clean/dry unit, waiting for some guidance from members here in another discussion ultrasonic machine discussion here Meanwhile, I aggressively scrub old dirty lps, mine from high school and college days, many given to me by friends when they got rid of their TT’s when CD’s took over, some purchased knowing they need a good bath, as long as no scratches. They go from unlistenable to an enjoyable listen, surprised me. I add alcohol 91, and a few drops of jet dry rinse agent to the purchased mix in a small spray bottle, thus ’my mix’. plastic lid from chinese soup container to protect the paper label. vigorous, repeat vigorous scrub with baby scalp brush and my mix manual spin machine is for rinse with distilled water, a pre-dry wipe with a cloth, into the 10 lp rack that comes with the spinner. batches of 10 while listening, whistle while u work.
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I previously used a SpinClean and it did a pretty good job. Recently started using the inexpensive UltraSonic Record Cleaner as sold on eBay and it does a remarkable job. Mine is the version with the tall bracket that the record turning motor mounts on. I like this version as you can loosen the knob and raise the motor and record spindle up high enough that 12" records are completely out of the water. It's sold by several different vendors, but they look essentially the same. Here's a link to an example: Good Luck. Clean records make a huge difference. I even clean brand new records befor their first play. |
word of encouragement: if I cleaned them, I would screw up too. I couldn't do what @elliottbnewcombjr does, he is the scrub-master. (baby-safe) I take them to my local audio shop and run them through their machine. |
Ill be checking some of the links posted here. But basically, any product you use, should get an proper rinse after, in case any of the cleaning chemicals are left behind. You need to first use a tool that will clean it properly, then rinse. I use an Okki Nokki at the moment, but I want to try the Humminguru in the future and keep the Okki Nokki to rinse clean it after (if necessary - to be tested) |
I use a similar unit & Spin Clean Rinse Afterwards as well and achieved excellent results. Allows you to pick up some gems from the dollar racks as long as there’s no scratches through to the groove. Scuffs are ok though… I’ve gotten to the point I can instantly determine whether a record can be salvaged or not… Picked up quite a few GREAT LP’s for sure. I’ve cleaned over 1000 LP’s …A word of warning using these types of ultrasonic cleaners…WATCH YOUR WATER TEMPERATURE…as I’ve had many a record warp from the water getting too warm.
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Like most things in audiophile land, it all comes down to how much you want to spend. Want easy, no fuss and effective? Get the Degritter Mark II. Want a more inexpensive alternative that will be just as effective but more laborious? Fashion a system of your choice from CleanerVinyl.com or consider the contraption(s) suggested by reubent. Improvements on the latter two ideas would be using an Elmasonic P60H US cleaner instead of a basic 40 Hz US machine and doing a final rinse in only distilled water with a Spin-Clean or Knosti Disco Anti-Stat. Of course, there are very effective and minimal cost manual methods to consider, as well, but that's as labor intensive as it gets. For cleaning solutions, however, that is a whole other dialogue! Think Tergitol, maybe Liquinox but, by all means, listen to what viridian is telling you! Not an easy read but worth the effort and then some! |
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I accumulated a lot of records over the decades; stuff I bought when I was an "audiophile," and even more when vinyl was proclaimed "dead"- Tower had moved all the LPs to the annex at the Lower Broadway store and I used to come out with bags full- shopping bags of stuff. A lot were treated as "cut outs" but I also bought at Princeton, Academy and in the last couple decades, started to seriously collect --albums from heavy psych to "free jazz," often used, attended record shows, bought a few collections, and got to know a few vinyl collectors. I had been using a VPI since the early ’80s--a 16 that was converted to a 16.5 and experimented with different methods as a dug down-- some of the used records were contaminated and when I bought my first US machine, an Audio Desk, it was not entirely effective in cleaning some of these used records. That forced me to go back to manual cleaning and vacuum used together with US. I eventually moved away from the AD to the KL machine, which does not use chemistry. My non-scientific take: a lot of these "used" records suffered from noise and contamination because of bad "cleanings"--I’ve seen guys at shows wipe records with mystery sprays and cloth. I suspect some of the LPs that I was able to revive were casualties of bad prior cleanings, rather than kludgey tone arms on changers which caused groove chew. (I was focusing on a lot of late ’60s and early ’70s LPs, which took us into the oil crisis and a real low point in vinyl pressing quality due to the compounds, including regrind). Disclaimer: I publish TheVinylPress where that book by Neil Antin (@antinn) was published. I credit Neil with all the heavy lifting, the science and pulling it all together since he wrote the Mil-Spec for cleaning life critical systems on our naval fleet and is himself an audiophile who wanted to apply his life’s work to another of his passions-- music and recordings. It isn’t a light read, but more of a reference. There are any number of ways to effectively clean a record. Neil’s starting premise is that you don’t need thousands of dollars in record cleaning equipment to get records clean in a measurable, repeatable way. I’m far from a guru, I got to where I was through what I would call amateur experimentation. I do use very high quality equipment, having cleaned thousands of records. As others have pointed out, the "spray and wipe" will not get the contamination out of the grooves- but probably only add to it. Some folks like the simple convenience of US made for LP cleaning--which involves the least labor. I’m somewhere in the middle--I still manually clean using a good commercial fluid and vac using a big Monks, then pop the record into the KL US. If the record is new and does not have apparent contamination, including fingerprints, I can rely solely on US, but since my thing is older copies, those usually go through a multi-stage, multi-method process. Once clean, I rarely have to re-clean. I follow a protocol of new inner sleeve, jacket cover and keep the original inner if it has any artifact value. There’s a ton of material out there, in writing and on video, about record cleaning. Neil has done something that no one author has done- to assemble in a logical way, the steps involved in cleaning and why those steps are important, taking into account chemistry as well as materials science. For that, I thank him. Bill Hart |
These comments from vinyl enthusiasts have convinced me that I have achieved an ideal audio system. The total cost of this system was about $1000, maybe less. The listening process is simple. I just lay down horizontally on the couch with my head on a pillow and cover myself with a light blanket. I plug the speakers into my iPad, select something on Amazon Music, and away I go.
My speakers are Monsoon MM-700. They're a plannar magnetic, nearfield design, and sound great! They are arranged in an ideal nearfield setup, as you will see in the photo. This arrangement is so effortless that you might call me lazy. And that's alright with me! 😊 ...I tried to post a picture here, but it didn't work. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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@skiznfliz - What temperature did you ultimately choose for your US record cleaner? Do you heat the water before you start your first cleaning? I'm currently using 30 degrees C. |
I have had excellent results using a "Spin Clean" type cleaner that I bought off Amazon. I have also used a painters brush with the usual DIY cleaning solution (distilled water, alcohol, a drop of Dawn detergent) followed by a distilled water rinse, for times when I have picked up 1 or 2 records at a yard sale, etc. and I don't want the hassle of setting up the record cleaner for just a couple of records.. Key for me is the "aftercare" once the record has been cleaned. I use rice paper inner sleeves, a clear vinyl outer sleeve to cover the record jacket, and then I have a carbon fiber brush that I give the lp a light dusting with before playing. I also have a separate carbon fiber brush for the stylus, which gets a light brushing every time I use my turntable (and of course, dust cover down whenever not in use...) I have found that my lp's stay 'clean' almost indefinitely using these methods. I have played lp's that were cleaned 2 - 3 years ago (and not played since) and they still look and sound as good as when they were first cleaned... I'm sure an ultrasonic cleaner would be even better - but I balked at spending several hundred dollars for record cleaning.
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I wouldn’t go any higher than 80… the issue is you can’t start there.. the water continues to heat up due to the friction of the vibrations… If you set your temp lower you’ll end up at 80 and beyond at some point if you doing several batches. Make sure to keep an eye on it because once the damage is done you’ll be stuck with a warped record. |
First, I know this process is/was excessive. I previously worked in an analytical chemistry lab, so I was accustomed to excessively clean processes/equipment. Background: I have cleaned ~4500 LPs using the following process:
I avoid excessive heat, strong acids, strong abrasives and organic solvents - not needed (and can damage LPs). With the 'deep cleaning' accomplished, I simply dust each side with a Disc Washer brush before playback. I recommend you try a few steps to see what satisfies you, your needs and your time-budget. Second, please know that cheap equipment is CHEAP ONLY ONCE. After that, you pay every time you use it... (a lesson that my favorite boss taught me years ago). Best of luck with your adventure and feel free to message me if you want more details... |
On a budget purchase a "label protector" such as the one I will link below (or purchase a less expensive Amazon version/offering for 50% less) and use your sink (soft/plastic tub inserted) to clean your records. The first step (prior to rubbing/brushing the LP with anything) is to protect the label and then flush out the grooves with warm water. You can do this with just the water tap or you can get more involved by using a repurposed WaterPik (dental cleaner) or something similar that increases the water flow/pressure. If you use a brush prior to the flush you will be brushing possibly hard contaminants against the vinyl surface (and if they are harder they will scratch/damage it). The above paragraph describes the main error in many established vinyl cleaning methods (flush, flush, flush before applying any brush). As far as inexpensive DIY cleaning solutions go Google it (mine is a simple Google find). I also use filtered tap water for final rinsing and as far as comparing the PUR filtered water from my tap to distilled water from the grocery stores (by evaporation) the filtered water has less/no visible contaminates VS the the distilled water -w- visible contaminates.
DeKay |
I always wondered why “quiet” is a virtue correlated with goodness when discussing vacuum based RCMs. I keep my noisy VPI in my basement workshop. When I clean records, I’m cleaning records, not listening to music. I’ve got a table radio in there for sports listening if warranted. It’s a vacuum cleaner; they’re supposed to be noisy. Quiet might mean weak vacuum. |
An ultrasonic cleaner is the best way that I have found to clean vinyl records. I built my first ultrasonic cleaner in 1979 and used it to clean over 1000 records with excellent results. With my spindle assembly, I typically cleaned 8 to 10 records at a time and the total process (cleaning, spin rinsing and spin drying) took less than 20 minutes for 8 to 10 records. All you need is distilled water and a proper surfactant in your ultrasonic bath. No need to spend a lot of money on an ultrasonic cleaner. A reasonable ultrasonic cleaner can be purchased on Amazon for about $200. |
I use KLaudio 200 ultrasonic with distilled filtered water and no additives with very good results. Every time i play vinyl a use Furotech III static removing device
I don't like the concept of adding anything to the surface of a record: Solvents always a risk. Soaps, additives, surfactants etc all accumulate and removing anything is rarely possible once applied
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First if after you "clean" a record it keeps leaving deposits on the needle, you did not clean said record. You just released some dirt. You might not be using enough fluid, letting it soak in enough, or removing enough of it after the final wipe. For me, do a manual clean with Grovemaster products, then it goes in the ultrasonic. After that it goes into a new premium sleeve. Use 6 drops of Grovemaster ultrasonic cleaner per gallon of distilled water. Some used records need to go through the process a couple of times. Most of my records have 0 pop, hiss, clicks, very low noise floor. If they do, they get cleaned again. My needle almost never needs to be cleaned. I got a nice little ultrasonic cleaner for that.
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Look at all these comments and go to the sites recommended for more in depth discussion about cleaners and such. I was where you are now: Trying the manual spay and wipe cleaner something like GrooveWasher. It was leaving gunk that required me to clean the stylus several times during play - and causing distortion. Not good. As others note, maybe not following instructions and using something like a Spin Clean with a few drops of surfactant in distilled water to do a final rinse might help immensely. But talk about labor intensive. It gets old quickly. |
FWIW the basic rules for UT are as follows:
The Humminguru is 40-kHz and the tank is only 400-ml, so even with only 60W it is a proper ultrasonic unit and produces fully developed cavitation. The Degritter is 120kHz and 1.4L, so it needs much more power, but at ~300W it's a powerful machine. But the KLAudio is the king of the hill, it's a beast - 40kHz, 0.78-L and 200W. The KLAudio is the most powerful recording cleaning UT sold. While the HG and DG can often benefit from a touch of surfactant for cleaning efficiency, the KLAudio is just brute power (and its water level sensors prevent the use of surfactant).
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Hi @whart , I completely agree. There’s a well-known vinyl store in Oakland CA that kind of specializes in jazz. Great LPs, but I noticed a lot of static pops on many I bought there. Proper cleaning and vacuuming only helped so much. The owner is a deeply knowledgeable guy who has participated in nearly every aspect of the record biz since the ’70s. But still. One day I watched him "clean" a batch of consignment LPs by rubbing a damp cloth around their surfaces. Aha! No wonder. As much as I want to support him, I stopped buying records there. Once those particles get cemented in, it’s very difficult to get them all out. |
I've had a Degritter for about 3 years. It's a work horse and cleans well. Sometimes a record cleaned in the Degritter later picks up gunk and has to be cleaned again. There is nothing you can do about groove wear or even loud vinyl. There is no standard for how vinyl is made. Some of the new 180 gram records wear quickly. I think their vinyl is soft. Sometimes they just pick up gunk that can be cleaned off. Other times, they simply wear quickly. All that being said, I swear by the Degritter. |
@vitussl101 I've used Mofi's Super Record Wash (nothing else with or added to it) in an US machine at room temp with excellent results. While doing so, I've never allowed the fluid temperature to exceed 90 degrees Fahrenheit. However, Mofi doesn't recommend using Super Record Wash in US machines. I couldn't get them to tell me why or what's in Super Record Wash that makes it inadvisable for use in US machines. Their Ultra Record Wash concentrate, which they say is specifically designed for US machines, is probably the same or very similar to Degritter's cleaning fluid or just the quadruple distilled water, very little Tergitol and whatever the hell an anti-static cleaning additive is. You can make your own at a fraction of the cost. |
@oldaudiophile Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about. The newest product is sold in 1 oz bottles at twenty-five bucks a crack and you mix it with 3-4 liters of H2O, designed specifically for cavitation machines like the Degritter. |
@moonwatcher "I think vacuum cleaning done right can get you about 80% of the way to Degritter sound quality" I don't think so. I think the improvement more than that plus the utter ease of use. You can be doing other things while cleaning records. You still have to buy chemicals; record wash, super record wash, Super Heavy Duty Enzyme action Record wash, a dash of tergitol and wash it all down with $20.00-$30.00/Qt water, not to mention pads and brushes. I still have $150.00-$200.00 in chems in my Linen closet and tucked away elsewhere. I've owned a HW16, still own a Record Dr. plus a Spin Clean with bristle brushes instead of pads(I made them with a local hardware store and I think work better). And those videos, people still do all of that to clean an Lp? Having to cover my entire dining table to clean Lp's was just too much and too slow. Here is a great video from Suncoast Audio with a comparison of a $6000.00 Clear Audio Double Matrix with antistatic wand all in a gorgeous and compact package to the Degritter. I might add, about as easy to use as the Degritter. Plus the video is one of the few where I actually hear a difference over the internet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDe57dgtED8 https://imgur.com/xLtVBY3 |
@impaler you want to get that junk off the record. The mold release agent residue can increase surface noise and mask some detail. I generally clean new records before playing them. |
