Sure, you may not listen to live or acoustic instruments, but it's a partial guide to know how accurately your system is rendering the recording.
Do we really know what "Live" music sounds like?
Do we really know what music sounds like?
Pure, live, non-amplified, unadulterated music.
Musicians do but most layman do not.
Interesting read by Roger Skoff.
Enjoy.
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@analogj - Might be the best guides if you like that kind of music, but not everybody does. For example, I listen to rock, pop, and reggae, not to 'minimally amplified music', so I wouldn't much care how that kind of stuff would sound on my system. |
What the OP reports out of listening live is so important. There are some who will accuse that kind of realization as unnecessary or snobism in terms of guaging what's important in a system. But real live unamplified ans minimally amplified music are the best guides.
The best audio I have ever heard involve Class A tube amps in terms of capturing lifelike tonality and instrumental body. |
When I listen to my system or another, what I listen for is the sound stage, pin point localization of the musicians, decay, harmonics, detail, how deep the bass goes and is it details or just one note bass, mid-range beauty and many other details that appeal to me and therefore makes the piece of music enjoyable. A lot of times, particularly if it is electric rock type music I say, it sounds better than going to a concert. If it is classical it can still sound wonderful to my ears and warm my heart, but I cannot get out of my head that I am in a much smaller room and no matter how wide the sound stage in all directions it never sounds just like being in a large concert hall, but still very enjoyable. The bottom line is I build a system to appeal to my ears, room, and budget with the end goal of a very enjoyable listening session for me and anyone else who comes over to listen, but never do I believe it sounds just like a concert I had attended. As @runwell mentions above, it is a great imitation of a concert I attended or maybe even better in the sense that my room is very comfortable and with good acoustics since I have spent a great amount of time and thought in treating the room, but at 12' by 15' it has it limitations. |
I am fully agree with you and you are talking the details which I do not on my prior post. Thank you! The key word to description the while story is "imitate", we use electric device to imitate the live sound, which is completely different things ,but let you feel almost same, and let us enjoy and happy. It is the movies, and it is the carton movies, and try to tell you the real things, which is far far away. I suddenly find a good example now. In old times, when the society is not so stable, the president have one or more than one substitutes, and they will attend some public ceremony ( Usually the substitute do not speak a lot as it will expose the different with the real one). The real one is the live music in the music hall and the substitute is the music system home,which does not matter how much expensive the devices are. The internal principle is different, and different by far, and they just try hard to imitate the real one. That’s it.
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Deep experience with anything allows you to make adjustments. If you are at live concerts that are being recorded. Look around. Where is it being recorded from. When ever I go to a concert I look and listen to the acoustics. I look for microphones, the concert control panels. So many rock and other electronic concerts are screwed up… bad venues, bad volume control. But going to them you can learn. |
"Unamplified live music is affected by the room. This has just as much or more bearing on the sound then an "amplifier."
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You are correct. You are never going to hear an unamplified rock concert.
‘’Although I listen to all kinds of music, I found it was classical concerts and acoustic jazz was what you needed to listen to to in order to zero in your audio system. It would make other kinds of music sound better as well. This helped me develop an empirical ruler, hence helping all music.
Alternatively if you only liked rock… you could get JBL and try to get yourself into a recording studio to understand how it was mixed.
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Your not hearing unamplified music at a rock concert. The only music to hear unamplified is classical or jazz. Period. I’ve been to enough jazz scenes in very small clubs to know what live music sounds like. Real tenors, horns, pianos, etc. And it was quality music with a legacy going back to the 20’s, not some loud noise not qualified to be called music. Jazz has never been music for the masses. If you don’t dig it, fine, the music doesn’t need you. |
i get your skepticism. But from those of us that have been dedicated to creating a great system to reproduce real music, and to people dedicated to develop systems capable of delivering that sound, an incredible amount of skill can be developed over decades. It is one thing going out and listening to live music in different venues one or twice, occasionally. Then it is very different doing the same hundreds of times over long periods of time.
I have gone to concerts at the Oregon Symphony hundreds of times. They always announce when they are recording for a release. My seats are under the primary microphones. I own a bunch of recordings made there. The acoustics are very predictable and different from my seat as they are above mine. But completely predictable. I have also frequented the Chicago Symphony and many venues, and other cities. You can learn about venues and acoustics. All part of being an audiophile or developing equipment with true passion. |
i agree with @tony1954 to add on to the above, i would say, if one plays an instrument, been in or heard a live choir or recital, one is exposed to live music and can form clear impressions of what it sounds like... the exact sound can fade from memory but the impressions formed are more easily remembered |
It seems that most people set up as the standard to compare their systems to; "sounds like live music or an instrument they are familiar with. That certainty is a noble aspiration, but in my opinion impossible to meet. An audio system is a series of electronic pieces of equipment trying its hardest to sound like wood or metal instruments in which string are struck, bowed, plucked... or blown through with small pieces of wood vibrating or air from the musicians lungs flowing through complex passageways and escaping out the other end. How can pieces of electronic equipment sound "just like" this complex system that generates music. To add to this what is the listener basing his comparison to? A concert attended to in a specific hall. First audio memory is extremely fleeting. I forget exactly how quickly it fades but it is seconds. Second the musical instrument that you are saying your system sounds exactly like will change it sounds based on the size of the hall, how filled the hall is with listeners how many other musicians are around playing, the humidity etc. These influences all affect the sound one hears so one piano played in one location will not sound like another piano played in another location not to mention who made the piano and how in tune it is. Now you play this recorded music in a living room, your basement, a dedicated listening room, a room that has been treated one that has not been treated etc. All this makes me very puzzled with how people tout how their system reproduces music just like what they heard at such and such concert. The best one can say is my system is extremely musical and gives me the impression of what I remember instruments or a concert sounding like. You can talk about decay, harmonics and on and on which are all very important for creating a live accurate sound but one can only approximate the sound of an instrument and will never truly sound like that concert you fondly remember or that instrument you play. The last item I always consider when listening to a review of how great a system sounds is that everyone hears the same sounds differently. |
Of course we do. Unless you have a very limited musical palette that only consists of amplified music, then you know exactly what live instruments and vocals sound like. Some of my most enjoyable musical experiences have been "live". Rigoletto, Turandot, or La Boheme at the Met Bryn Terfel, Cecilia Bartoli, Joyce DiDonato or Renée Fleming at local recitals Buddy Rich and his orchestra or Woody Herman and the Thundering Herd at the Commodore Ballroom |
This post will spare me to wrote one.... Anyway it is better said than mine would and he says it all... Thanks to the poster...
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These posts reveal the bias in Audiogon towards classical and acoustic music. Now, that is not to attack the style of music nor those who love it, but it does reveal the lack of a baseline that serves as a foundation for much of the discussions on Audiogon. Person A: "What do you want to eat?" Person B: "Apple Pie." Person A: "For dinner?" Person B: "Oh, I thought we were talking about dessert." The point being, there is a huge difference between classical and other forms of acoustic music that is intended primarily to be unamplified and rock/pop/most jazz etc. where the mics, amps, and speakers are PART of of the instrument. I'm sure different systems do better with one or the other. Point being, I don't think there is a singular sound of live music. It depends on genre. We each tune our systems to sound best with our chose genres. At least that seems logical to me. |
A couple problems with this article. Unamplified live music is affected by the room. This has just as much or more bearing on the sound then an "amplifier." Secondly, it depends on your position relative to the instrument or vocalist. As a guitarist, I sit behind the instrument. An acoustic guitar is going to sound different to me than it does to someone who sits in front of me. And if you're sitting off to the side it'll sound different. And if you're sitting in front of an amplified guitar cabinet it's going to sound a lot more like the recording than if you're sitting 50' away because guitar cabinets are close-mic'd. And if I move my head 1" it'll sound different. And on and on. And do we really want it to sound real? Almost all recordings are post-processed. Why? Because live performances have real or perceived flaws or deficiencies. Or some instruments are too dominant in the live setting and must be dialed back. Or the room doesn't have enough reverb, or too much reverb. Or slap echo. And so on. And I'll end with our limited acoustic memory. How do we remember what "real" is? A good example is an Anderton's YouTube video called Head or Tread. Rob Chapman, a very experienced musician and guitar company owner, did a blind test of various tube amps, solid-state amps, profilers (computers that mimic an amp) and pedals to determine which was an amp head and which was a pedal. He owns some of these amps and the profiler. He got almost all of them wrong, including the amp he uses at most of his guitar clinics. And again, according to studies, musicians are supposed to have better acoustic memories than the average person. |
The musicians may not know what it sounds like from various seats in the concert hall. Nor what it sounds like in venues they have not performed in. Nor concert musicians what it sounds like in a recording studio and vice versa. Nor musicians recorded in Abbey Road studios what it sounds like elsewhere. But anyone who cares, has normal hearing capabilities, and listens knows what it sounds like at that time in that location with whatever the source may be. Is that good enough to assume we do know what music sounds like? If we don’t, so what? I don’t know what it sounds like on Mars. Won’t let that bother me too much. Nor if someone else claiming golden ears tells me I don’t know what music sounds like. |
Make a search and read: the word to search for is "acoustic" the second word "psycho-acoustic"... If you dont have any experience and fresh remembering about instrument timbre, if you dont learn how to perceive his micro-structure in space, how do you test by listening experiments your room? Do you think like most that the sound comme from the gear in an immaculate conception OUT of ANY ROOM ?
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Do we really know what was heard in the recording studio? Mastering studio? Not sure live performances/instruments are too helpful for end listeners building systems. While there are certainly benefits to hearing un-amplified live, there seems little gained in correlating the two. I guess he's alluding to the often used system evaluation, "that sounds live." His point: "....In short, you need to know what music sounds like if you're going to try to effectively reproduce it." I disagree. Maybe for recording engineers.
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Being a member does not mean a thing. What you see and what you hear are intertwined. Develop one and you'll develop the other. |
Nobody know what live music sound SAVE with his own specific ears and history... We were programmed to recognize human voices apparatus for million of years , sound coming from any direction... No one is programmed in life to distinguish live music and playback music, it is an acquired skill and never exactly the same for everybody, SAVE for musicians practising the same instrument and exhanging impressions between them... But even for them live music and playback music are different birds... We can only compare the playing micro-structure of the tonal timbre of only one instrument at a times to improve our audio system.... Or use choral voices.... Pretending live instrument an recorded one sound the same make no sense... A recorded instrument can sound natural for sure so much that even a musician can be surprized... But even a virtual 3D movie where we will be someday would not fool reality for an astute observer...
« "Reality" is God kingdom smell's in us »-Anonymus Smith
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Do we really know what music sounds like? For many, unamplified classical, bluegrass, jazz, etc is not what they consider music to be at all. This spreads further when you include the plethora of ethnic musics, at times with instruments unrecognizable to those from elsewhere. |
It was the very reason I got into selling the stuff. Played trumpet professionally and then got into audio. Always attempting to chase the windmill of producing the energy, dynamics and presence of live music. Close had to be "good enough". I think the "visual aspect" of "seeing" someone play an instrument ties in with the sound and I believe part of the reason for failure to duplicate with audio equipment. It's more than an "auditory" thing i discovered. |
Mostly amplified metal and rock shows. All of them sounded better on the record/cd. I'm not into classical/symphony type music but can appreciate it for sure. My daughter who is 6 already loves classical music. That said she is going to be WAY smarter than me or her mom. Maybe that's saying something. What I do enjoy live is 1 guy with an acoustic guitar in small bars with no amplification. Saw some really good ones over the years. I think I know what that sounds like. I play acoustic guitar as well but I suck pretty bad! I was in a rock band from like 17-20. We did some local live shows in Dayton and I played bass. The name of our band was very fitting. Simple. Lol |
Of course! If the article weren't so silly, it would be hopelessly pretentious. Jimi Hendrix at Monterey Pop isn't real music? The Philip Glass ensemble doesn't play real music? And Taylor Swift and MF DOOM and Bob Dylan (rumors are that he went electric), not to mention all the contemporary fusion and hybrid quartets.... And we need to show our bona fides to prove that we're ... *serious* about music?? (For over fifty years I've heard unamplified classical concerts in virtually every major hall in Boston, NYC, and Chicago, so count me in.) And don't get me started on soundscapes and ecomusicology.... I assume that the article is tongue-in-cheek. Of course there's nothing like the Takacs Quartet playing Bartok in a small venue (a pleasure!) or a throaty jazz sax or a fiddle opening up that high, lonesome sound. I'm there, too. But it's absurd to think that one person loves or understand music more than another, just because they've heard unamplified music (or they have a $50k sound system). Fun to argue about, though! |
Here we go again with a post that asks if my listening habits are better than yours. It is now and always should be about the enjoyment of the music. Any way you hear it from any source. If you are listening and enjoying the sound then who cares what others think. Even at a live un amplified performance three people sitting together will hear three different versions. I also like the “musicians” who are on her claiming that since we do not play we have no idea what we are hearing. Yes I would have loved to play guitar but did not have the talent so I was a sound engineer. Believe me their are plenty of musicians who have all the talent in the world but can’t hear squat. It was me who made them sound good. |
Interesting but hmm? Yeah I know what live music sounds like. Having played in bands for 20 years of my life including, marching bands, attending many acoustic shows, jamming with nothing but guitars a drum or maybe even just drum sticks or a bongo maybe a sax and a piano no amps yup I do . That also being said also palying through amps attending well over 1000 live shows or even 2000 counting bar bands local players, piano bars etc... yes I know what i am listening for. Also why cant amplified music still be live music? Whay does live music mean no apmplication ? What we all strive to reproduce is the sound we hear seeing a live show so what sthe issues if its amplified? I really do not agree with the premise of that whole article. Maybe thats the key, to know what you are listening for amplified or not . I can tell if its sounds close to live or as reasltic as it can be or just music coming through a speaker. |
I do and well. I married into a family of Jazz musicians. Also, I lived in the French Quarters where many bands would perform on the streets with no amplification. NOT ON BOURBON street, Frenchman Street. Never heard much good music on Bourbon, tourist stuff. There is a famous post card of the Preservation Hall Jazz band. My wife’s grandfather and uncle are on that postcard. Two other uncles are famous musician, at least in Jazz, as well. Stevie Wonder would call one uncle, a famous Jazz musician, every Christmas at the family Christmas dinner to wish him Merry Christmas. Dinner would stop and everyone was quiet while Stevie was on the phone. That uncle had produced a Grammy award winning album for Stevie. Audiophiles are always complaining about how harsh something sounds. I am amused to no end because I realize that they may have never been in a room with someone playing a live trumpet, unamplified. Even at low volume, some of those high notes can cut like glass. One uncle, that played sax, played with Cannon Ball Aderly. Herbie Hancock, B.B King, and many big names. So soon after marrying my wife, the family informed the one that produced a Grammy album for Stevie, that I had a very expensive stereo and loved Jazz. He constantly reminded me of the Grammy and that Sony records had custom built his recording studio and gave me the dollar amount it cost. Years later during hurricane Katrina he would be a guest lecturer at Princton University while we were out of homes. So, he came by one day." Let me hear what ya got!" So, I play some Mobile Fidelity stuff. He turns and lowers his head sideways and listens. Immediately he has a kind of grin and at the same time a smirk on his face. He turns to me, " I couldn’t use dat stuff. See cats like you, into that sort of stuff. I need something that can sound good on a tiny radio, a car radio, or anything. Sure dat stuff you got sounds good. But it’s not for me!" Initially, I was confused as to what he was saying. He was talking hip and using a lot of 60s and 70s slang. He kept saying, "I master my stuff. I master my stuff" Then I fathomed what he was saying. He was telling me that the music was uncompressed. My stereo had the dynamics to play it and make it sound great. But the masses do not and it would not sound good to them. I was shocked. |
@rodman99999 Yes! Love going and hear bands, orchestras, choirs and the like at local universities and colleges here in the Chicago area. |
It’s been my experience, if one desires (generally) good (sometimes: excellent) venues (acoustically) and a live music experience, of diverse genres, without breaking their budget; doing an online search for local college campuses, with concert programs, can be most fruitful. ie:https://www.google.com/search?q=college+campus+concert+programs+near+me |
As virtually all the concerts I attend are unamplified classical concerts (orchestral, chamber choral, organ and piano recitals) or small acoustic ensembles (folk), and playing guitar and singing in choirs myself, I'd say I know what live music sounds like. I don't know what classical concerts Roger is attending, but rarely do I see the use of sound reinforcement in a concert hall other than for Broadway shows. |
Coming back to the op’s statement I often find that so called ’live music’ via HiFi System would sound better than the ’studio’ version, because it has the advantage of sounding organic with verve. Sometimes listening to sealed speakers in comparison to ported speakers has the same effect which makes the music more ’immediate’ one of the treasure of the ATC speakers and highlights more how the musicians are playing their instruments. Groups such as Pink Floyd and Dire Straits have done studio and live albums of their same tracks, often the way the tracks have been performed are nearly identical in Studio mode or Live mode but the sound effect of the ’Live’ mode for me is the instant obvious advantage of that live instant and immediate sound..... |
At least with live music one will not encounter 'sibilance' with vocals. But back in the days of 70's live Rock gigs the sound was so awful that I remember suffering from sound buzzing in my ears for a long time after the concert. Especially the time when I was directly positioned on the side where Ritchie Blackmore's guitar came out of the huge concert speaker, it was good to know the tunes of the songs played in advance because one would not recognise the song actually played live in concert because of the distortion of the loud sound.....! |
If I’m not mistaken, amplifiers are part of every non-acoustic instrument. With a great deal of effort, I’ve learned to appreciate opera; but the amplified human voice is to me, far more listenable in any venue larger than a coffee house. That said, I think it’s impossible to know what live music sounds like until/unless you actually hear it, simply because no listening room's acoustics approximates those of the broad range of acoustic environments in which one hears live music. Nevertheless, psycho-acoustic phenomena more than adequately compensates for that deficit . . . provided the playback system is linear in all respects and capable of reproducing the frequency extremes included in all live music. My preference is two-channel analogue for the ultrasonic frequencies that convey the emotion and sound staging the performers and recording engineers intended their listeners to experience. I prefer valve amplification on accounta' it augments my GFA heating system at my sedentary listening position enough to keep me comfortable during cold winter months. Besides, tube rolling is kinda’ fun.😀 |
For years, I was totally into guitar rock, including concerts. Some were pretty good, but for the most part the bands sounded better on record or CD rather than live. The vocals were often drowned out by the instruments, decreasing the fun of hearing the music live. I was particularly disappointed when I saw the band, Three Doors Down, in concert, as the vocals were non-comprehensible (even if you knew the words) and all together it was about as pleasant as having a chain saw operated beside my ear. I was very disappointed, though I continue to enjoy the band’s recordings. Acoustic music and low-amplified bands are usually much better, though that depends upon the artist. In recent years, I attended concerts by Bob Dylan and “Willie Nelson and Family” and both were snorefests! Utterly disappointing. When I see someone claiming “Attend live music, then seek to have your audio system sound like that”, I know they cannot be referring to concerts like these. Best that your system not sound like that. I’ve never been into classical or symphonic music, but I bet that is what the advocates for live music are referring to, The closest I have come in recent years were concerts by Tony Bennett and LeAnn Rimes, both backed by 3-4 piece bands. When the quality of the artist is that good, you don’t need to be blasted out of your seat or strain to hear what is being played or mumbled. I regret that I never attended a Linda Ronstadt concert, as I’m certain the power and clarity of her voice would shine through even during rambunctious guitar riffs. P.S. After writing the above, I read the referenced article (I’m lazy that way). It was interesting read and made good points. It was definitely worth reading and I thank the OP for bringing it to our attention, |
