Both your initial 2 amps and now your expanded list all appear to be good tube amp examples. For your goals of warmer, fatter midrange, a lower wattage SET amp would probably provide more obvious differences in those attributes and take advantage of your ability to go low watts with the sensitive Klipsch’s. Probably going to be tough to beat a Willsenton for bang for your buck, especially used. If you start doing upgrades or getting expensive 300b tubes though that initial low cost can vanish. There are other SET tube options with less pricy tubes that are also very good. A more off the beaten path option (though popular) would be a used, already built Elekit if your main priority is sound quality, and not a remote, a lot of inputs, or highly polished looks. I can speak for the TU-8500 with 6L6 and many other similar tube types compatibility for rolling. It compares very favorably with more expensive SETs and you’d have to spend much more for better sound quality. Typical used price can be a little less than the original parts kit cost. My TU-8500 purchased at $750 keeps up with much more expensive SETs that I have had in my system. You can keep an eye out for the ones with the upgraded Lundahl transformers. Also second Erhard suggestion - the 4 WPC Ray 6L6 SET model. Would have to be new since they don’t show up used, but reasonably priced new especially considering hand built in the U.S.
@markcasazza Bass for sound and instrument. |
The Dynaco Stereo 70. I built one from a kit when I was 14 years old. I used it for 12 years before switching to a pair of Dyna MK IIIs, then a larger Hafler. I cannot say the latter two were improvements. I now use a pair of NYAL Futtermans OTL3s. The simple design has stood the test of time. There are now many excellent mods of it available for $800 - $2,000 range. imho one of the all time classics - David Hafler was brilliant - and still a good amp esp for the money. However. It’s not integrated. The Dyna PAS preamp has also been souped up by current engineers/hobbyists. Pair them together for a classic look and sound. |
I like what DeKay said. You obviously have efficient speakers. Years ago I fell in love with the sound of Audio Research tube amps in combo with Martin-Logan ReQuest ES Hybrid speakers (larger than my Sequel II's) but could never swing the bucks for ARC. After my Krell amp took a lightning strike, I replaced it with a Vincent hybrid power amp. Don't kid yourself; it is a hybrid only that it has tube input stages, none in the solid state output, and it does not have that tube bloom we love. Meanwhile resting in my basement was an iMan "Valve Amp" "headphone integrated amp that I bought with an iPad docking station that I got with it new for about $750 from Audio Advisor. Well, as things happen, I started using the basement space for business and needed a music setup. That amp is rated for about 8 wpc and had two RCA inputs and speaker output posts in addition to the headphone plug on the face. I had my 1970's vintage New Large Advent speakers re-coned and hooked the amp up to them with a "no longer using" non-Blue Ray DVD player and the system played music with a deep an wide soundstage that blew me away. I know there are several Chinese tube amp dealers on EBAY with power from 5 wpc on up, in various configurations for less than $500. If I were in the "place to start" wit tubes and care more about the music than "accuracy" I would start there. |
I think if I were doing this I would start with my speakers and go from there. I'd figure out what sort of sound I like and what dynamics. If my focus were to be with tubes I'd like it if I could find an open baffle (probably) or horn-loaded (depends on your taste) speaker or anything easy to drive. Then a whole world of tube amps, integrated too, opens up to you, and entry level wouldn't cost that much. When you start getting into high power things get more difficult. |
Did anyone read the question? The OP asked if anyone had experience with 2 specific amps and then everyone gives their favorites. Both the amps the OP mentions have very good recommendations. Sooner or later you have to take the plunge. I’d be inclined to go with the Willsenton but make certain that you have efficient speakers. |
I live in Denver. Fortunately The Music Room is about a 45-minute drive from where I live. They are a GREAT used gear resource (one of the biggest in the world). Here is the link to their current integrated used tube gear. Interestingly, many of the gear suggestions in this thread are available used at The Music Room (PrimaLuna Evo 400, Rogers High Fidelity EHF-200 MKII, Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III, Quicksilver Audio, Cary Audio SLI-80HS, and Coincident 34SE MKIII). |
If anyone decides with Raven Audio I would highly recommend you spend the extra money and go with their Osprey for that will supply you with a few extra years of quality sound and with upgrading tubes along the way and speaker and subwoofer added give a very nice musical sound for most starters into tube amps.. With these amps the best tubes are the ones Dave Thomson will suggest for your listening pleasures....He sure supplied me with tubes over years to keep me wanting to hear more coming out of the Osprey amp...But all Amps have a limit to how much you can get from them before you are looking for another to hear more detail and headroom ... |
@yaluaka, I'm with you. I love a big sugary sweet tube sound. My problem is I also like lots of power. I have an AUDIOPHONICS LPA-S500NC class d amp and a Conrad Johnson PV10 preamp with early 60's Mullard 12AU7 Blackburn NOS. Those are powering Kef LS50 speakers. I get all that tubey goodness but can also push quite a bit of sound. Not sure why more people don't go solid state or class D power with a tube pre. |
Start with efficient speakers before you try the world of tubes which I do encourage. Patience, wait until you find something that fits, used, near enough to go listen to 1st and pick up is my advice. Best way to save money, get something you know you like the sound of, and avoid shipping disaster. Ask seller or look up the impedance/efficiency of the speakers he plays them thru, compare that to your speaker's efficiency, impedance. Ask seller about spare and alternate tubes in the initial conversation, they might give you knowledge, perhaps include some other tubes, or sell them at good price. Where do you live? I search hifishark, sort by 'first seen, new first', check every day until you get lucky, I just found something rare this am, just listed, made my offer, perhaps ..... |
Gentlemen: On this Christmas morning, thank you for your very thoughtful recommendations and opinions on integrated tube amps (and some hybrid integrateds, too)! I have a lot of research to do, but now have a point of reference to start this tube journey. I compiled the amps in the thread and have listed them here for your perusal pleasure (and maybe your curiosity......). Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II Prima Luna Evo 100 Integrated Quick Silver Black Silver Audio Raven Audio Blackhawk Consonance Ref 5.5 Rogers Willsenton R8 Willsenton R800i Analogue Ethos Black Ice FX10 Musical Paradise MP-301 MK III Boyuurange Reisong A50 MK III (EL 34) Muzishare X7 (KT88) Olchen EL 34 Dennis Had KT 88 Firebottle Dennis Had Inspire Cary Audio 300 SEI LX20 Vincent Audio (Hybrid Integrated) McIntosh MA252 (Hybrid Integrated) |
I reentered the tube amp world a few years ago with an Olchen EL 34 for $350, it’s not bad, but not great. Now sits in my office driving Klipsch RPM 160, predecessor to the RPM 600. Sounds good enough for background musicwhile I work. Next came a Dennis Had KT-88 Firebottle, 6-10 wpc of single ended class A with no negative feedback. I had Dennis build it with a high quality volume pot so I don’t run through a preamp. Sounds absolutely divine, layered soundstage and rich full midrange driving Vienna Acoustics Bachs in my master bedroom. The amp can run 6550, 6L6, EL 34, KT-88 tubes driven by a single 6SN7 or 6SL7, a tube rollers dream amp. Then I bought a Willsenton R800i 845 single ended class A that puts out 20 wpc but with pretty strong negative feedback. It’s a beast and drives Klipsch Forte IIIs and a pair of Focal Aria 926 for a more intimate, smaller soundstage effect. I never get the volume dial past 11 o’clock. This rig is in a large, wide living room/den with tall ceilings. Playing through the Klipsch is like being at a live performance with the best recordings. Finally came a Cary Audio 300SEI LX20 running KR Audio 300B XLS tubes that can output 20 wpc in single ended class A with no negative feedback. A Dennis Had design when he ran Cary Audio. This amp drives an older pair of JMLabs 716S. I’ve also run it through the Klipsch Fortes. The epitome of 300b sound signature! A good sample of ch-fi and US made boutique tube amps. My recommendation would be to find a Dennis Had Inspire to drive your Klipsch Heresy’s. He builds them by hand one at a time in Cary, NC and sells them on ebay under radioman731. They range from $2,500 for a KT-88 to $5,000 for his 300b with Western Electric new production tubes. HiFi Huff reviewed the 300b and called it an amp for life. Best of luck on your tube journey. Cheers! |
@grislybutter Vincent makes hybrid integrated amps not tube integrated amps |
I love my McIntosh MA252 integrated amp. I love its profile, but more than that, I love the sound. I have used it to power S/F Serafino’s, and now have my MT5 turntable hooked up, a BlueSound Node, and running into B&W 804’s. I don’t use this system currently to power the living room, but I have in a previous house. It is a lovely sounding piece of equipment (set up). |
In the exact price range as the Willsenton R8 is the Muzishare X7 KT88. Some electronic techs who know tube gear examined both and some said the Muzishare might be a touch better and safer. Tubes can obviously be expensive, but they don't have to be. There are new tubes being made that reviewers do like such as the PSVANE Horizon tubes. What seems to separate a "good" tube amp from a "great" one are the transformers used, the quality of switches, rotary bias and volume controls and how well negative feedback is used to lower distortion. |
You have gotten a lot of very good suggestions. I would add looking at amps made by Boyuurange Reisong to the list -- especially the A50 MKIII 300B and the A10 EL34. Both are built like a tank, a ridiculous value (you could buy both and spend less than $1,800), and allow you to "test the waters" of tube amplification without taking out a second mortgage. The big caveat, however, is the low output. These amps will work fine with your Heresy's, and should be OK with the Omega's. I am using Polk Audio Monitor 10's with the A10 EL34 and it sounds excellent. The A10 is only around 6 watts per channel. The Dennis Had gear I mention below could not push the Polk Audio's, but I also have Klipsch Forte II's and Heresy's from the early 1980's which is perfect with the Had gear. The Reisong amps make the Klipsch sound like butter.
I already had a McIntosh MC-225 from 1963 paired with an ARC preamp, and a Dennis Had Inspire 45 "Fire Bottle" paired with a Had LP3.1 Preamp. I wanted a low cost tube integrated for a bedroom system that I was putting together. The Reisong’s were perfect choices for my situation. They have been my only experience with "Chi-Fi", and I have not had a single problem over the 5 years of ownership. Happy shopping! |
@scotthiga That is what I would have guessed. You are looking for more meat on the bones. The warmth and humanity of tubes! In my limited experience, the bigger push pull tube amps brought me closer to solid state. So I went from a 14 tube amp down to a 3 tube SET amp and then I understood what tubes were all about. That is not to say there are not push-pull tube amps that can pull off a similar feat--I just don't know which ones to suggest. I can say that my Erhard Ray provides exactly what you are looking for in terms of sound quality. But it may not have enough power or features. Driving a pair of Omega monitors, 4 wpc is plenty of power for me, especially after I added a pair of REL 5/tx subs. While I love my primary system, I have to say that this little tube based system is wonderful to listen to. Highly suggest you consider used gear so you can experiment a bit without taking much of a financial hit. If the first one doesn't quite deliver the goods, you can move on. I would also bet that which amp you like best will hinge on which one of your speakers it is driving.
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Sounds like what you are looking for is definitely a tube setup. With those speaker choices you are in good shape. Lots of good info provided already. I will chime in with my two tube experiences. I had a Jolida 502 brc (entry-level for sure) with 6550 tubes pushing about 60 watts. Loved the imaging, soundstage, and midrange texture. But, not enough oomph for my Snell speakers. So, went up to a Rogue Atlas 100 watt amp using KT-120 tubes. Much better dynamics and bass but not as good in the imaging, soundstage, and midrange dept IMO. Still very enjoyable though. I have heard el34 based systems that blew me away with their midrange and palpability so maybe that is where you should look. |
Interesting entry level would be the Black Ice FX10 or the Musical Paradise MP-301 Mk3 (both are integrated amps). The FX10 is PP EL84 coming in @ around 12 watts for $800, or so, and the MP-301 is single ended (various output tube choices) coming in @ around 6 watts for approx. $500. Both are well reviewed/Google them. Once you move on either would be super for a desk top or other 2nd system (or as a gift to someone else starting out).
DeKaY |
Thanks for the many and interesting responses. I own Klipsch Heresy IV’s (99 dB sensitivity) and Omega DynaTen XRS’s (90 db sensitivity). On both speaker sets I’ve paired them with REL T9x subwoofers. Electronics on the Omega DynaTen XRS’s is a Naim Uniti Atom. The Klipsch Heresy IV’s are paired with a Technics SU-G700. Both systems use Maze Audio cables. Music is streamed (I don't own a turntable). The Klipsch Heresy IV's use a BluSound Node 2i for streaming. Thanks for your continuing commentary! |
@scotthiga If you really want to experience what tubes are all about suggest you do a simple SET integrated with a full range driver. Check out Analogue Ethos. You can do a kit or prebuilt. Beautiful cosmetics and I suspect great sounding as well. Other great options would be Erhard Audio, Elekit, AN kits, among others. Pair that up with an Omega speaker (or similar efficient easy to drive design). Certainly you could go with a push-pull tube design if you want something to drive your current speakers. Just keep in mind not all speakers play well with tube amps. Synergy is key. Otherwise, you could end up with something inferior to your current amp. (BTW, it would be helpful if you post more info on your system. Otherwise, you will get many random opinions--including mine.) |
Tubes are fun, rolling them can turn into an obsession. Great advice already, if you can, identify the sound signature you are after. It can vary depending on design. Some designs lean into tube magic, bloom. Other designs focus on bridging the gap between SS and Tube amplification often leading to Tube amps that sound more like SS amps with a touch of Tube magic. If you are new to tubes if you can find a unit with auto bias / bad tub indicators it will ease you into the maintenance of keeping Tube amps running, sounding there best a bit easier. |
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Tubes are fun. Oh I thought about a big caveat here, I like a very vintage tube-y sound. A lot of people here like tubes that are much more modern sounding. That is not my taste, so you might find out where you land in this world. There are some tubes, the ones that are more powerful, that often sound like a slightly warmer non tube amp. That is not my preference, I want a thick, slow, big tube sound with a beautiful midrange blume. To each his own. One more thing, most of the vintage amps aren’t amp and pre together. A few are and there are good Chinese amps that are. Anyway, I find vintage tube amps and horn speakers the most enjoyable (and visceral) end of our hobby.
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I started the tube journey with a highly rated Consonance integrated from China. It had been favorably reviewed, used 4 of my target 300B tubes, so gave a less scary power output number for the speakers I had at the time, etc... It was a safer move for many reasons. I bought and rolled several sets of power tubes... It is a good unit and really gave me a feel for the tubes. It is a Consonance Ref5.5 and a friend has it now beginning his tube journey. Maybe just get something cheap to get your feet wet. I’m much further down the 300B path now, but that first decent integrated gave me the sandbox to play in. |
I second Rogue Audio. I have the Cronus Magnum II and it is probably worth twice the price. Great base which can be missing in some lower end tube amps. Amazing mid and high end. Phono pre-amp is above average. Two other inputs make it quite flexible without adding extra items. As a bonus RA will add inputs to allow for external preamps so you can grow with this integrated amp into a power amp. Speaker pairing is huge. I recommend a dealer who will let you bring your amp in to audition speakers at the shop. The RA CM has lots of base so you may find some speaker pairings to have too much for your taste.
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If you really want a soundstage sound it is expensive..You Have to match your Tube Amp with Speakers and cables ,DAC ,USB Cable for Streaming,.. I started with Raven Audio Blackhawk and when you start buying Military tubes cost start to add up along with cost of Amp. But from Raven Audio bought the speakers that were designed for the Amps purchased from them... But tube amps when matched with speakers and cables are the most enjoyable and musical reward to your ears...But Costly.. |
"Entry level"? No such thing. Maybe lower priced, or affordable. One way to approach this, buy the best you can afford plus a little more - meaning save a little extra. Consider buying something you may not want to upgrade latter on, which gets expensive. Rogue Audio, Prima Luna, Quick Silver, or Black Ice Audio. |
