I listen to Rock only, 60'70's 80's some. I purchased a Bricasti M1SE from Scott at Verdant Audio in NJ, a short time ago. I wanted a great DAC and didn't stream , other than Quboz via USB. Still liked it a lot. WE talked for almost 2 hrs. He was great. I ended up with a great deal on a M1SE with a network card. Spent way more than I could really afford. He explained everything, as I knew nothing about streaming, beyond my current situation. I now stream via the Bricasti LAN setting, Through Audirvana via Quboz. Extremely impressed, more than I can describe.
This via a large room, more than 20x30' Speakers 15' apart and listen at 80 to 90 db about 15' away. Very new, 200 hrs or so, Tekton Special Encores serial numbers 5 &6 175lbs each, leaving out the expletives. Bench mark LA-4 pre amp, Powered by a PASS X250.8 all listened to in Class A, Some CD's too, via A LTA linear power supply, AES to a Project RS2T transport. All cords, etc up scaled but not expensive. Both speakers flanked by SVS SB4000 subs Everything in system ii running balanced. The nuances are difficult to describe, except to say, once your seated you don't want to leave the concert. This response all triggered by The Bricasti M1SE article. Just a short shout out to Scott, who was GREAT and The company BRICASTI Robert TN
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Hi there. I like a raspberry pi based streamer from pi2 aes. They make a solution in a box but for about $250 you can buy their raspberry pi hat. I installed free Volumio software on the device and it works like a charm with roon. I used to use an Intona for galvanic isolation and rely on reclocking by my DAC. Using the pi2 aes made a big difference - beautiful dark background and big reduction in sibilance. Surprised me as as I was a skeptic. 3D effects clearly enhanced as well. . Go with the pi2 aes 2.0, which can use an external 5V power supply ( rather than 24V). Several good reviews on YouTube.
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You mention it needing to be Roon Ready, but to clarify - do you already have a device running as a Roon Core?
Not sure how down the rabbit hole you have gone with Roon but if you are new to them, they need a "Core" which is usually a more powerful PC but can be a general purpose device like a laptop, NUC, desktop PC, etc.
Then you need an "endpoint" which is a more audiophile oriented device that streams music from the Core and plays it back like a dedicated transport should, spitting out a digital signal over USB or AES or coax or whatever.
Some devices do all in one approach to this. Like an Innuos Zen or similar will handle all the functions in one unit. But other times it is better (and maybe even cheaper) to have a separate Core on the network and a dedicated endpoint for audio playback, in your music setup. You can stash the Core in another room, it doesn't matter.
That said, I like the Matrix Audio Element S for $1500. Great little transport with lots of options and killer sound quality. It's an endpoint only though, but satisfies all your requirements.
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Roon optimised rock kit NUC latest version. Solid and smooth in operation. Add a Farad Super 3 and don’t think about that bit of the chain anymore.
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@jbhiller thanks for all the details and sharing some of your audio journey. Makes sense to question the value proposition in streamers. You’ll find a lot of debate on if moving up in models, brands really makes a difference. Your comments on longevity, life cycle also make sense. I think digital is evolved and matured to the point that you’ll get at least 5 years from a streamer but likely more without issue should you take the plunge in something in the 2-5 k range. How much difference there is between the various streamers will be debated by both sides. If possible, order a Wiim or Node off Amazon or a dealer with a return policy, compare it to using the T3 as a streamer only. If you notice a difference in favor of the T3, investing in a Auralic, Lumin, HiFi Rose priced in that 2-3 k range should yield some nice results. If you don’t, then you’ll know the Wiim or Node is all you need.
Aurender is often mentioned as being the “gold standard” for streamers. If you found a used N100, N200 guessing you would be a really happy camper.
And…. Thanks for the info on the LTA DAC, sounds like it creates some beautiful music.
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Holo Audio Red $800
Roon Ready + NAA for HQPlayer
Lots of outputs: USB, i2s, AES, coaxial
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Well my global takeaways are that: in general you get what you pay for. The specifics vary between brands and investment levels. But in general the background noise (except on PCs not usually heard directly... not shhhh but the noise floor... allowing you to hear deeply into the music) drops as investment increases. The amount of detail can be good in budget gear, but the overall representation of the audio spectrum gets more continuous. By that I mean on really cheap gear you get treble and bass and little fleshed out in between... thin sounding. Hardening of treble also disappears with better quality streamers. The rhythm and pace, typically absent in budget gear gets better and better except in designs attempting maximum detail.
If you want to look at the two things that most consistently are the biggest thing it is the noise floor and natural nature of the sound. The noise is suppressed through highly refined power conditioning, physical isolation, and vibration suppression. Hence, high quality streamers are heavy... all this stuff weighs a lot. Also, lots of folks attempt to make budget streamer sound good by adding linear power supplies or playing with their routers, and network infrastructure. A, high quality streamer will clean up the incoming signal without the need to clean up your entire network and incoming power supply. The second is the how natural the sound is. The DAC is critical here as well... so if your DAC isn’t great, then a great streamer is not going to shine through.
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Bricasti M3 is an excellent DAC but the network renderer is just not great. Use it as DAC only.
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Bricasti M3
I’d be careful about Bricasti for a streamer. I’ve created a database on streamer specs from Hifi News reviews over the last few years. Why? Because Paul Miller does “Lab Reports” at the end of every one of them, and he does the most objective, consistent measurements of streamers in the industry. Anyway, the jitter measurements for the streamer board of the M3 are the worst I’ve ever seen. The M5 has been around for years, I think, so if they’re using the same tech, not good. By way of example, his measurements for the Pro-ject and the Volumio are multitudes better, comparable to the high priced Aurenders et al.
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@jbhiller there’s a used Aurender N200 on USAM. Great streamer with excellent UI and customer service. It made a huge difference in my system going from Lumin U1 Mini and my DAC’s network renderer as streamer to this unit.
I have no affiliation with this seller so if you’re interested you will need to do all the due diligence to ensure a smooth transaction.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650156639-aurender-n200/
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@jbhiller: re: Auralic Aries Mini as Roon endpoint… when it first came to market (almost a decade ago), I don’t think it was yet certified as “Roon Ready” so older documentation may not indicate it can run as an endpoint. However, with firmware upgrades, it did get the capability to run as a Roon endpoint. I’m streaming Roon through mine as I type.
As a side note, I think Aries Mini was a device before its time. Not sure why Auralic took it out of production (though they’re still supporting it and occasionally updating firmware). Perhaps they couldn’t compete with Sonos, Bluesound, etc. However, as Wiim has so successfully made inroads into affordable streamers, I think the Aries Mini could more than hold its own in that realm. It lacks any DSP other than four filters & resampling, but it can send hi res audio out via USB.
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I'm researching that Bricasti now. Thank you folks!
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@mm1tt77 , Thank you for sharing your rich experience here. I’m particularly grateful for those sharing and being objective. You are sensitive to not falling in one clear camp, which I enjoy, and just report what you hear and think.
One issue for me is that I have no trouble spending $5k on a component, IF I can get great sound, stability, and a decade of use. With streamers (less so with DACs as the tech there seems to have reached a real highpoint), I really dislike the notion of spending $5k on something that weighs <10lbs and has as much tech as a Mac Air. It just seems insane to spend mid five figures for something that arguably should cost $1-2k. I suppose there is an issue with economy of scale (Apple sells more Macs than Auralic/Lumin combined sell streamers/DACs) so the price has to be higher to compensate for that and the design R&D. Still, it’s not like a great streamer is more sophisticated than a personal computer--guess I’m paying for design and implementation of the tech. I get it--I've heard the same state of the art ESS Sabre chips sound different and better across different implementations.
With regard to DACs I’ve tried, I haven’t bounced around with them as much as I have with SS v. tubes, Class A, Class A/B, Push Pull, Class D, Class G, and the myriad analogue choices (tables, cartridges, preamps, and so on). So....I don’t have as much expertise or aural memory with DACs generally.
That said....
My journey has changed over the years. About 25 years ago, I began pushing and pushing toward modern, clean, "state of the art" sound in my components. Then, in about 2015 when I finally got a legitimate phono preamp my analog lapped my digital by a wide margin. And, I also tried some more dated technology--think 100 dB efficient horns, 300B amp, SET amps, etc.
At that time, the massive bloom and music washing over me from that setup changed my view. When I would go listen to modern designs (think high end dacs, transmission line speakers, and other modern stuff) I began to feel that the lens I was looking at the music was smaller, yet more defined and exact. BUT, in that presentation it was like looking at a perfectly detailed thumbnail of a musical event/recording session. Yes, it was arguably "perfect". It just didn’t sound like I was at a live performance or in the control room (they are here v. you are there sort of analysis).
So, my journey continued. I tried a wonderful tube DAC from Doge Audio. That thing was lovely with amazing parts quality and features. Just rock solid and sounded so warm. I made some gear changes and I gave that DAC to a friend, and moved on to use the DAC in my Marantz Ruby SACD player (nice Ken Ishiwata voiced product). The Marantz sort of split the baby between husky, warm tube DAC and a more clinical modern affair. Plus, the Ruby made poor recordings consistently sound pretty darn listenable. The Marantz Ruby played well with copious gear changes (amps, preamps, integrated, and all sorts of topologies).
For whatever reason, I didn’t think the Ruby mated well with my Luxman L590axii (one of the last of Luxman’s Class A offerings) and my preferred speakers, Revival Audio Atalante 5s. So I tried a few DACs laying around and friends’ stuff. This brought me to trying the $5k Lumin T3. These Japanese cousins (Lux and Marantz) sounded good but not great together and I could hear each of them do better with other pairings respectively.
Maybe I’m just frugal (despite spending so much money on this hobby otherwise) or foolhardy. I really like the Lumin T3 sound, but the screen, app, lack of power button and overall curb appeal seem questionable for a $5k unit. That’s said, I’m not opposed to buying one. I just think at this level I want to hear other stuff.
When I tried the Lumin T3 I was really looking for just a streamer and was surprised by its DACs sound quality. It’s very even across the sound field. It has reasonably good scaling ability (recall how I like sound to wash over me--not shoot at me like a laser).
The LTA Aero is very limited in its approach. Nonetheless, it’s just lovely. I suppose I could just mate it with some budget streamers first (Wiim Ultimate? or something like a Bluesound reference model). But...it would be nice to avoid a long audition process and selling my system short with a more budget product.
I don’t have enough experience with the Aero to say anything more or different from the reviews out there, which I think are pretty accurate. It may not be for everyone’s taste. I do, however, think folks who have been chasing stats, state of the art tech, DSD, crazy oversampling, low SINAID, might want to turn off their minds for a month and just listen to this unit. It’s utterly musical with ample detail. Highly Reccomended.
Again, if I knew a streamer would last and be relevant for 10 years I’d spend this money in a heartbeat. For example, I bet the Luxman NT-07 Network Streamer would be a great product. Luxman doesn’t make junk. But it’s $7500!!! Look inside:
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/network-audio-player/luxman-nt-07-network-streamer/
There isn’t even $500 of parts inside!
I should shut up on value here, as I suppose it’s an invertible part of our hobby these days. Am I crazy or does anyone else think we are being utterly gouged on streamers in particular, DACs next. There's just no way it costs Lumin the same to design and build this thing as my Technics SL 1200 GAE at $5k. And that's fine...my sticking point is spending such money on tech that is essentially a computer that will likely be wheezing to operate in 5-10 years from now. Hey, $500-$1000 per year though probably isn't that bad when I ammortize it.
Maybe if the Lumin looked sexier and its screen didn't look like an early 1980s calculator! Sorry Lumin--nice casework otherwise I suppose.
Thank you for sharing what you’ve learned!!!
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Another shout out to the Bricasti M5. Roon ready, made in USA and fantastic support.
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@ararem , I'm seeing the Aries Mini as being both Roon Ready and not. I need it to be able to run Roon as an endpoint.
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@jbhiller I’ve had 3 DAC / Streamer combo units and used them as both streamer only and all in one solutions, Node 2i, Lumin D2, Lumin P1. I’ve had stand alone streamers, Auralic G2 Aries and Lumin U2 Mini. I have found stand alone streamers to sound a bit better than using a Streamer / DAC combo as a streamer only, that’s even when I bumped up to the P1 which is slightly different than most Combo units, it’s really a hub for digital, can act as a pre, has various inputs, volume control, HT Bypass and it’s the most $$ of the bunch. Some will say streamers if they are doing their job correctly, don’t have an influence over the sound. I have found I can hear the differences but they are subtle. The differences between the sound of DAC’s is more pronounced. If you really like the Lumin T3 you are borrowing the Lumin U2 Mini would be a great option. Try it as a streamer only with your DAC’s and see how it sounds. Innuos, Aurilac, Aurender and Lumin are all brands focused on digital streaming and have well thought out, developed implementation / support. Any of these brands is rock solid. BluOS is probably the most supported, easiest to use platform to use. Hifi Rose hasn’t been around as long but has quickly made a name for itself with great stand alone streamers and combo units. Units all have a large, really impressive screen that take up almost all of the front of the unit, they are sweet looking. The 130b which is slightly over $ 5 grand is maybe one of the best out there, especially at its price point. 2 camps, one says streamers make no difference in sound, others claim they make a ton of difference. I think it’s a little of both, if streamers are designed, implemented properly with really good power supplies along with limiting jitter / noise, the differences aren’t likely one of better sound but might be which you prefer based on subtle differences. Synergy is key, choosing a streamer that has an output maximizing its performance that pairs with the best input to use with your DAC is key. Some DAC’s are designed for USB implantation, others AES, other I2s. Having a streamer that has prioritized the output that your DAC is designed to work best with makes a difference for sure.
How’s the LTA DAC? How does it compare to other DAC’s you’ve had? It’s on my list of DAC’s I want to try.
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Metronome DSS2 or the previous model DSS1. Not cheap, but worth it.
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I'm with @durangoat
Innuos Pulsar
Sense App is great
C-yah ROON
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@ghdprentice , please share some global takeaways from your experience!!!
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Cambridge MXN10. You could bypass the preamp / dac.
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In general, streamers are like other high end audio components, you get what you pay for. My experience comes from components from the sub-$1K to ~$20K.
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Another vote for Innuos—I have the Pulse. Great, design (love it’s understated, yet sleek look) as well as an excellent linear power supply and anti-vibration measures. The excellent Sense app then seals the deal.
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I own an Auralic Aries S1 + LPS that, in my opinion, is a good choice for the price. My old streamer was an Aries Mini, since 2016.
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Track down a used or BNIB Auralic Aries Mini. Picked one up (BNIB) a couple months ago for less than $250. Has a DAC, but it’s bypassed if you route the outbound signal into an external DAC. Mine is fed by ethernet. To date, it’s functioned perfectly as a Roon endpoint (I’ve also used it plenty, sans Roon, with Auralic’s Lighting DS app).
—Specs—
Music Sources
- Music file on NAS or computer
- USB drive
- Internal storage
- TIDAL Qobuz & WiMP lossless streaming
- vTuner Internet Radio
- AirPlay and Songcast
- Bluetooth 4.0
Supported File Types
- AAC, AIF, ALAC, APE, DIF, DSF, FLAC, MP3, OGG, WAV, WV and WMA
Sampling Rates
- PCM in 44.1Khz - 384Khz (16 - 32bits)
- DSD64, DSD128, DSD256
Control Software
- AURALiC Lightning DS
- OpenHome compatible control software
- uPnP AV compatible control software
Media Server Compatibility
- Built-in Lightning Server
- Compatible with Minimserver, Twonky, Asset UPnP
On-Device Control
- Front panel key with user defined function
Input Port
- RJ45 Gigabit Ethernet
- 802.11ac Tri-Band WiFi connection
- USB 2.0 High-Speed for external USB drive
Output Port
- USB 2.0 High-Speed for compatible DAC*
- Coaxial, TOSLINK**
- Singled-ended line output
Line Output Specification
- Frequency Response: 20 - 20KHz, +/- 0.1dB***
- THD+N: <0.002%, 20Hz-20KHz at 0dBFS
- Dynamic Range: 110dB, 20Hz-20KHz, A-weighted
- Output Voltage: 2Vrms
Power Consumption
- 6Watt for average working condition
- 15Watt at max (with internal storage installed)
Dimension
- Appox. 5.5"W x 5.5"D x 1.1"H (14cm x 14cm x 3cm)
Weight
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Add me to the auralic G2.1 camp. It’s a great streamer with a reasonably good native app. I opted for this over some other choices based on availability of WiFi as some others have noted.
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another streamer discussion
@jbhiller see link above to a recent discussion that touches on same topic. I am a strong proponent that, putting aside processing differences (e.g., reclocking, up sampling/oversampling, dsp), the only differences across streamers - sonically - is differences in noise (and the science is really clear on this, btw). Some DACs do a much better job than others at eliminating any or certain types of noise from sources (streamers). But regardless of your DAC, there are a number of inexpensive streamers that do a great job of minimizing noise, hence the list in my previous post. Bottom line: there’s a lot of hype out there re streamers in part because this is the leading edge of the industry for a lot of consumers still, so there’s a lot of opportunity for high margin products for producers. Good luck.
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Another vote for Innuos. I have the Zen Mk3 that I bought from a great local dealer used for $1800. The Innuos Sense app is the best interface I’ve used. Excellent customer support with upgrades online as needed.
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Thank you All! Great suggestions for research.
I like hearing that I can get great quality without spending $5k. I have two DACs that I like here. My Marantz PMKI Ruby SACD/DAC and Linear Tube Audio Aero. I don't want to give them up.
I have on loan from a friend a Lumin T3. It sounds amazing. I'm using its DAC now. Really nice all around. But, a couple things I don't like. The Lumin has no power button, which makes it wonky to reboot the unit--odd for a $5k machine. Also, for $5k the display looks like my Speak and Spell from 1982. For $5k? I get putting all the money into parts, etc. But you've got to be kidding me.
@mdalton , very intriguing. I may buy a couple of these and see how they hold up against the expensive competition. The Holo looks great but the wait time for it to be built is long!
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Lindemann Audiotechnik Limetree Bridge II or the new Lindemann Woodnote Solo streamers.
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You do not need to spend big $ to get top-notch performance:
iFi Zen Stream: $400
Primare NP5 Prisma: $750
Holo Audio Red: $800
Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra: $900
Volumio Rivo: $1100
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Innuos was on my shortlist when I was in the market for a streamer without a DAC, However, in the end I purchased an Esoteric with a DAC. Unless your DAC is something really special, I’d suggest purchasing one with a DAC, that is also special.
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Used Aurender N100H. They are $900-1200. The Listening Room typically have several for sale, and one can buy confidently from them.
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I use a Volumio Rivo with Superfarad 3 linear power supply. Sounds excellent.
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Check out the Lumin U2 mini. No DAC and Roon ready. Lumin also has their own software that may be used instead of Roon. The mini uses Lumin’s latest chip and software that may be updated. This streamer is a solid performer for $2400. The Lumin U2 cost $5K. However, the difference in sound isn’t worth twice the price IMO. The Bricasti M3 is another solid performer worth consideration.
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+1 on Innuos...I have the Pulsar. Sense app is excellent!
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Innuos pulse series excellent interface, customer service
and build in vibration control throughout including the feet
I bought mine from Perrotta Consultants ,audio,
excellent service and Pricing.
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+1 on the Moon MiND 2 recommendation.
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I own an Auralic Aries G2.1. Chosen largely because of desire for a Roon device and my need for WiFi since the listening room wouldn’t allow running ethernet through the wall. Build quality and sound are very good via WiFi, possibly even better with cable internet (i may never know). I believe they did another iteration (2.2) so I’d imagine the 2.1 can be found on the cheap.
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+1 to an Antipodes even if used.
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Auralic Aries G1 would fit the bill and can be found under $2K used.
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Could try Antipodes?
May but a bit pricey though.
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BDP PI has those outputs and makes a great little ROON endpoint.
Moon Mind2: but replaces USB with AES-EBU
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Sorry for the typo. I need this OUTPUT formats not inputs.
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