Old SS amps

@emergingsoul sadly there is no variac for wine! 😁

Old to some, boat anchors to others, missing the bells and whistles of modern…time spent (hobby) irrelevant, its about the sound quality. The make doesn’t matter if it’s liked and breaks ya fix it new or old.

@1971gto455ho 

+1 That's exactly how I look at it. Giving great gear a new lease on life is worth the while in my opinion. Congrats on refurbishing your PC5002M, these are gorgeous amps!

Often manufacturers would glue caps to the PCB. Although you'd like to think they did this for the sake of microphonics, the glue was there to hold the components in place while they were being soldered.

Sometimes with age and heat that glue kind of decomposes and spreads out over the PCB from under the cap. For all the world it looks like the cap is leaking, but it's not, it's just glue. 

Not that glue is necessarily benign: in rare cases it becomes conductive and causes short-circuits.

I’ve just finished restoring/tuning a Yamaha Pc5002m, better than spec and 8.5 looking. I’ve two driving the music section and a Pc4002m on the movie section. Certainly I’ve head room, no strain for anyone. The 5002m’s are truly audiophile be it in PA clothing, a marketing decision a.k.a. 101m reface. All three have had very time consuming and detailed refurbishing. Not a lot of technicians can or are willing to work on these, the detail justifies their spec sheet. Old to some, boat anchors to others, missing the bells and whistles of modern…time spent (hobby) irrelevant, its  about the sound quality. The make doesn’t matter if it’s liked and breaks ya fix it new or old. 
 

Cheers 

@devinplombier 

Fascinating your knowledge on this.

So basically the older wine bottles I opened a few months ago, all bad and disturbing, are foreshadowing problems I may have connecting some pieces of equipment I haven't used for years. 

A variac is absolutely the way to go if not sure about caps, you can reform then through a process of starting off with low voltage and increasing in steps. Also, I'd open up and visually check every cap, look for leakage, swelling.

@emergingsoul 

Manufacturers of electrolytics usually say shelf life is 2 years but it depends on storage conditions, mainly temperature. It's generally accepted that the rate of electrolyte degradation doubles every 10 C increase. In addition, high humidity causes lead corrosion. Climate-controlled storage is pretty critical.

Personally, I would restart anything that hasn't been turned on in a year on a variac.

@devinplombier 

Any idea how long this is? so It’s a good idea to turn them on every once in a while.

Should probably get rid of the stuff in the boxes if I’m not gonna use it. 

It's nice to know solid amps just like us the way they self heal.  Self healing is underrated. Pretty incredible.

OP

20-year-old amps, as other have posted is just at its prime (as long as it is not abused). If it's a Pass, then it can be recapped if you wish at the factory.

I would grab that offer (if it's a Pass) right away assuming the price is right

My old amps were Rotel and one of the first Decware amps. these were about 20 years to this day, and they all sounded great, no need for CAP changes. 

I love my carver stuff.the 500 is on ferris buler day off movie.i have nelon audio refresh them.epic and enjoy the music.he puts blue led in the meters and they think there mcintosh.

I have/use a Yamaha RX-Z9 bought new in 2003 now with over 35,000 hours that still functions like new.  Maybe the fan is a bit louder.

How long will a amplifier last if it's stored away in a box? Is there a shelf?

@emergingsoul 

The process by which electrolytic caps self-heal is suspended when not powered. Caps can become severely dried out as a result.

There is no hard expiration date, but any equipment that uses electrolytic caps (not just amps) and has been in storage for a long time should be brought back to life slowly and safely on a variac, as long as it has a linear power supply (SMPS-powered equipment is another story, but few audiophiles own any). The variac process allows caps to reform. Long-stored equipment should never be plugged straight into the wall.

A variac is a variable AC supply. It's quite inexpensive and well-worth buying if you plan on putting any long-stored gear back in service.

I have a Mark Levinson No.23 and a No.27.5 which I acquired used about twenty years ago. Although they have not in in use for several years now, I am confident that I can plug either one into my system and they will do just fine.

How long will a amplifier last if it's stored away in a box? Is there a shelf?

@dynacohum I have some Great American Sound (GAS) gear: two Sons of Ampzilla, a Grandson and a Thoebe preamp. One Son and the preamp need repair.

Also in present use is a Carver TFM-15cb that I bought fifteen years ago at my local Goodwill for $25. Working fine!

I have an Adcom GFA-1 and a Carver M400 cube amp in my collection yet to be tried out. Along with several tube amps of varying ages.

I have a 40-year old Sumo Andromeda 200wpc amp in 24/7 use for the last seven years. Designed by James Bongiorno of SAE, SWTP, GAS, Dynaco, SST fame. All original parts! Sounds fine! Bought it on eBay for $450. 

Ive read that electrolitic capacitors dry up, leak, swell after about 15 to 20 years.

@bikefi10 

That’s mostly an urban legend though. Look at your Carver M400: these amps are notably unreliable due to their tight packaging and, well, Carver - yet the caps in it have lasted 40 years.

Id plan on having amp recapped at some point if you buy it. Ive read that electrolitic capacitors dry up, leak, swell after about 15 to 20 years. Probably factors such as cap quality, use, environment play a part.

Bought a Carver M400 amp and C4000 pre  new in 1980.

Waited a bit too long, but had them recapped 40 years later. They were in storage about 10 years of that time.  Definately needed it.

I have a vintage 1982ish Adcom GFA-2 that I bought used in the early 90s. It was my first hi-fi component that I owned that wasn't a hand-me-down from my father. It's slated to be recapped. As is, the GFA-2 is a fun amp to use but it's not the daily driver. I only keep it for sentimental reasons, but I imagine, once recapped I could sell it for more than what I paid for it. I think I paid $150 for it at the time. So I'd say I got more than my money's worth for 30+ years of service. 

As with so many things in life, I believe the answer is "It depends.". I would say that looking for something from a company with a good reputation for quality and, even better, one that still services their gear, might be optimal but I wouldn't let it scare me off if they don't.

The key is finding a good, reputable shop. If you're looking at Pass, then the answer is likely just send it to them. If you're looking at other gear, then finding a good shop is paramount. 

I had the luxury of visiting the shop I'll be using out of Austin. I feel very good about working with them. 

Happy listening.

Been using a Sony 3200f since new in the early seventy's.  It was a party amp and quiet listening amp.  Always and the only problem is a burned out "on" lamp.  .  Took it to a McIntosh test and was told by Mac tech it was a "good little amp."  Never serviced but the "on" lamp burned out about 30 years ago.  Now it shares duty with a Decware for fun.  The differences are there but not huge.   A good find would be a bargain.  Good ventilation is essential.

I was given a McIntosh MC2250, it was many years old, I used it trouble free for many more years, until I went back to efficient horn speakers and tube preamp/amp. 

https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/legacy-products/amplifiers/MC2250

Had it checked by McIntosh at a lab day at Harvey’s NYC when I got it, checked perfect, beyond spec, needed one LED replaced; and had it checked/certified by McIntosh factory in Binghamton, NY prior to selling it, needed nothing.

I’ve bought nearly 20 used amps of various vintage, many 20-30 years old by now.  Only two have had sound problems (as opposed to needing new bulbs in meters and that sort of thing): a Levinson 23 which are known to cook themselves to death, and a Classe that still works but has occasional right channel fussiness. 

The rest work great. 

IMHO, buying new vs used says more about the personality of the owner than the reliability of the gear (not saying either is superior).  I have friends that just won’t own used. 

When I lost a capacitor on my ML 336 the right channel got static that would not go away.  In my experience you will know when one needs to be replaced.

I don’t quite understand cap replacement’s how do you tell when they are bad when I’m still impressed & happy with my systems sound? I’m kind of the mindset that if it works don’t fix it. 

@pjlivengood 

You got it: if the amps work, leave the caps alone.

You may want to have bias current and DC offset checked, however. They tend to drift over time. Elevated bias causes operating temperature to rise, and with it the risk of chronic overheating and thermal damage, which can be quite devastating. As for DC offset, it can potentially damage your speakers, but most amps have protective circuitry that shuts down the outputs before damage occurs.

The best sounding/performing SS power amp I have ever owned is a a Krell KSA-250 (released in 1989). Purchased used, in Singapore and shipped back home to Paris as "Luggage". In those days (2002) you could combine family luggage allowances. Got home plugged it in and my 3 teenage daughter all went, "Wow Dad, what have you done"! It was a tremendous improvement over everything else I had previously owned. Moved back to the USA in 2004 and had the amp shipped directly to Krell for a service (less than $1k from what I remember), a lot of capacitors were replaced. Used it for another 10 years, always sounded perfect to me. Then I sold it, biggest mistake in HiFi to date! For years I have thought about buying a used replacement.

I have been using a Plinius SA 102 for the last 18 months (love it so much I bought a second unit for backup and bi-amping). The unit is a 2001 vintage. I bought it recapped. It's the most satisfying amplifier I have owned and has basically put an end to my amplifier search. This is coming from someone that has owned Gryphon, Pass Labs, First Watt, Musical Fidelity, and Parasound JC series.

The Plinius is definitely better than anything I have owned from Pass Labs and Parasound. I would put it on par with Gryphon Essence amp even though the sound signatures are different (Gryphon is cleaner and Plinius is sweeter). The Plinius has also been trouble free. I think going for older high end SS amps is a great way to get into high end amps without breaking the bank. My approach now is to go with a highly regarded neo vintage amp and use the savings to get the best sources you can afford.

I want to put a word in for G.A.S. Ampzilla, Son of, and their successors. These were among the crop of Jim Bongiorno designs that broke the “SS sounds harsh” mold and preceded the Mark Levinson era of ridiculous overbuilding and price inflation attending the Gordon Gecko ethos. 

I’m using a 4 channel Harman Kardon Citation & a 3 channel Parasound HCA-2003 for music & HT. I’ve owned them over 25 years & they still sound great. I keep them ventilated & fans blowing on the heat sinks perhaps that has helped with the longevity of both amps. I don’t quite understand cap replacement’s how do you tell when they are bad when I’m still impressed & happy with my systems sound? I’m kind of the mindset that if it works don’t fix it. 

I have purchased quite a few 20+ year old amps over the years, mostly for secondary systems or short term replacements for my main system. 

I suggest being open to considering even some mainstream brands. I had good fortune with a Rotel 980 BX power amp from the mid 1980's. On the other hand the, Rotel preamp had noticeable IF distortion.

I also found a dirt cheap Kenwood "Rack Amp" from the late 1980's. It has well regarded Nichicon transistor pairs, Elna filter caps and a quality ALPs motorized volume control. The MM phon section is also quite listenable.

I’ve got a Sim W-5 was told not to turn it off with risk of voiding a 10 year warranty. Fired it up the other day, plays and images like a champ. Great with tuff to drive loads as it almost will play into a dead short. 

My Classe Model Fifteen amp is over 30 years old and performs perfectly. Never had any problems. It shares duty with my Cary Audio Six Pac mono blocks which have also been maintenance free other than tube replacements. 

J.Chip

@bdp24 that old BEL amplifier is an excellent amp.  It produces a slightly warm overall musical sound with pretty good details, high and low end extension.  We compared it to a few modern day amps and it was the winner for producing overall musical pleasure.  I think it has 2 or 4 larger PS capacitors.  It was a very simple design that worked so well.

For those of you who say run away, you need to rethink this.  PS capacitors like Nichicon SuperThrou's probably run around $50 each so replacing four of them is not expensive.  We have a bunch of different 15-20 year old amps in for repair now.  Most have simple issues and customers just want to upgrade the caps, etc.  Once upgraded, current models you may be familiar with usually cannot compete.

My old Lafayette KT-550 tube amp in stock form still kicks the crap out of many current models and sometimes pretty significantly!
Upgraded older Counterpoint amplifiers also kick butt once upgraded (full/complete upgrade/modifications almost complete rebuilds with point to pint wiring ($2k-$3K).

You won't find many if at all new amplifiers with point-to-point wiring!

So for a $3K investment you get a fantastic upgraded product that kicks butt!  Great parts, great sound.

Happy Listening.

I am currently using a pair of McIntosh MC501s that I bought used 20 years ago.  The drive 3.6 Maggies beautifully and have been rock solid all this time.  I believe I could sell them for what I paid, although I have no reason to do that.  Build quality is a real thing over time.

@OP As Hk_fan says above, it is brand and maybe even model dependent. If you are looking at twenty years plus, especially if it's a high powered amp, you can expect to be looking at a PSU reservoir caps replacement - though not necessarily immediately. A visual inspection will show if there are major dangers. However, caps are not the only failure point in an amplifier - e.g. rectifiers and output devices are also prone to failure. And replacement components are not necessarily available. So it's basically a crapshoot. Gear can on on for ages or it can fail. I've seen old Quad 405s get beaten to death in studios and go on almost indefinitely. You pays your money and takes your chances.

I have a 40 year old Denon PMA 757 in my separate vintage system---I've only had it serviced once when the volume knob had a little static and one of the lights went out. Other than that---no issues. Still sounds great.

Still using a 30 year old Onkyo TX-8011 with Audio Physic Spark floor standers. While not the last word in resolution, the pair are musical.

I purchased them together, in the last trimester before my son’s birth, when I was told by other dad’s to buy what I want now, because I would be broke for the next 22 years. How right they were

Anyone remember Proton amps? They were a spinoff from NAD, which was itself a spinoff from AR. I remember the Proton sound was beefy and resonate, when they worked. Too often, they blew transistors.

ETA--Did anyone own Lafayette Radio Electronics equipment? That was my intro to "hifi." My neighbors bought their amplifier, speakers and a Garrard turntable. I was SO envious, and saved up $$$ from my newspaper route to buy exactly what they had.

Here are some solid state amps with cult followings:

- Bedini 25/25

- BEL 1001 Mk.IV

- Electron Kinetics Eagle 2

I have been to Audio Events as a Entry Paying Visitor where the Enthusiast / Hobbyist owner of Audio Equipment are sharing the Event with the Commercial Sector as an Exhibition.

For the Hobbyist Enthusiast there is to my knowledge nothing for sale on the day unless entered into a Charity Auction.

There might be a service offered by a few of the Hobbyist / Enthusiast attendees that is available to further investigated outside of the show.

The Commercial Sector are what they are, Exhibiting Items from a recent design and production as a clear purchasable item.

At Events like this, there are the Commercial Exhibits that raise to the occasion, and will insert into a System being exhibited a Source produced from a Vintage era, a Japanese DD TT or British ID TT are to be seen in place of an alternative recent design model as a Analogue Source.

The Hobbyist / Enthusiast are usually with a System that is made up of devices bordering on Vintage or actually Vintage.  Their Sources used are ranging from Quite Old Tech, Recent Tech, Current Tech.

At such Events the Enthusiast / Hobbyist Exhibiting Rooms are constantly visited and able to hold visitors who are receiving demo's of the system with their own music brought along or the System owners selection.

Commercial Rooms are getting similar volume of footfall, but rarely are seen able to hold a captive audience for a period of time, as does the Hobbyist / Enthusiast. There is not really personalities involved, but the lesson quickly grasped is that a Audio System built using a range of products from different eras, is able to be extremely impressive as a system when assessing the End Sound. It is also quickly learnt if an inquiry is made or a little further investigation is carried out, that a system need not extend to much more than £5K to be an obvious competitor to systems costing in current New Purchase Markets £60K and ascending.

Getting out and doing footwork, having experiences of Audio Systems is the only way to have a really good lesson in a short time line. Reading about a device or system is only that, "Reading about a device or system". Reading is not experiencing End Sound.    

A more apt comparison would be, which one is easier to fix, a 69 Chevelle or a 92 Cadillac? Exactly. Same for audio gear

Buying old things is seldom a good idea unless you are certain it is still in good operating order.  
 

Like people, after a certain age, it’s usually all downhill from there. 

Well-intentioned but misbegotten advice on the urgent need to recap vintage gear yesterday is all too common.

In the real world, electrolytic caps don’t fail that often. Other cap types don’t fail hardly at all (film, ceramic). Wima caps will probably outlive the cockroaches.

The thing is, in order to properly test a cap you have to desolder it. And if it’s a small cap, once it’s desoldered it’s just as easy to drop a new one in, because a) small value caps tend to go bad more often than large ones, b) they only cost 10 or 20 cents, and c) you’ve already done the labor in order to test the cap anyway.

So you do end up doing a lot of systematic recapping whether you like it or not (I don’t). Old caps being replaced almost invariably test fine. A dead cap will make its presence known.

Anyway, my point was that in my experience I’ve probably seen as many failed ICs and semiconductors as I’ve seen failed electrolytic caps, yet I’ve replaced 10 times as many of the latter vs the former.

@bigtwin Excellent point there. Also ask about caps being replaced, or at least being checked out and deemed acceptable at some point recently. If all goes well an older amp can be a great buy but it can also be an expensive project if you don't do your homework.

@roxy1927  If I was ever looking to purchase a piece of older equipment, I would start the conversation with "so, are you in the always on camp?"  Cheers.

Pretty easy, degradation of non-mechanical electronics is caused by degree of heat multiplied by time.

I think @pindac drew an outstanding picture of the larger context in which high-end vintage equipment exists and is sought, appreciated, and kept in good custody by a certain breed of audiophile.

20 year old high-end gear is not "old"... It is better described as nicely broken in.

I would highly recommend such gear to the right person. My system is made up of it.

But those who worry about parts availability and serviceability had best buy new gear, and with it the peace of mind that factory warranty confers upon its buyer until it expires, which comes soon enough - unless you get Bryston gear, which has a 20-year warranty... and is quite good too, by the way.

Those who don the rubber gloves and wellies and are with the adeptness to build Valve Amp's in the Modern Day, will get quite excited if Iron is found from the 1930's.

Shoe Box Size Tranx''s from the 30's, working with modern Components and Valves from the 40's, is today being realized and I meet the odd individual keeping the Art and Themselves Alive.

A Friend during their earliest interest in Audio, had acquired enough Quad II Amp's to fill a few shelves in their Mancave, they refurbished these and made monies to Upgrade when making new Purchases, some would say the Quad II is all one needs. Not bad for a 1950's design. With Horn Speakers they did quite a nice job.

Another Friend is using Sansui AU 111 with a complete overhaul of Parts as their main Amp's, these 1960's Amps are adorned with Valves from the same era and are driving Stacked ESL 57's, there is a substantial amount to like with the EAR Acute as a Source, also adorned with 1960's Valves.    

 My Own Valve Power Amp's that are in regular use, are a design completed in the 90's and built during the late 90's / early 00's.

Today I am able to listen to quite a few Valve Amp's designed / Built in the 90's era and am always thoroughly impressed. One Owner bought into a design for very very fair monies, with a Mirror Chrome Casing and Interstage Tranx's incorporated as part of the design. This has been compared to currently available of the Shelf Modern Design Valve Amp's used in the same system and has shown itself to be a Kick Ass Amp'. The owner of this Amp' does not need to Spend an extra £6K - £10K to get something quite similar.

Another Friend specialises in Overhauling SS Japanese Amp's from the 70's to the 90's. Amp's overhauled are used in certain Systems where other supporting devices are approx' £30ish K in Value. I am associated with a few of the owners of these Overhauled Amp's, and know the Owners are not in any frame of mind to change, they proudly wear their Amp's used on their Sleeve. I am very very Familiar with a Overhauled SS Sansui Amp' from this era, there is nothing to suggest it has shortcomings that are discernible. I recently added one to a Shortlist to be used as a Amp' in the SS System to be produced for my Wife, for her to enjoy her Vinyl Collection         

This answer depends on the brand and the level of support.  I'd pick up the phone and talk to the company what you are thinking of buying to make sure they will still work on them. 

Pass labs, Parasound, McCormack and others I would not hesitate at all to buy an older unit since I know I can get service (caps replaced) if needed.  

Mark Levinson, Krell, Classe no way, at least not now.   I've been down that path and service is just too much of a crap shoot.

Good luck!!