Perimeter Ring Clamps: Yay?, Nay?, Sources??

mijostyn

On lightweight TT, where instinct says 'not too much weight' I use the small and very light rubber puck that holds reels on R2R tape decks,

same diameter as turntable spindle. press down, they stay put holding the center, self clamping rubber, pull off easy.

I need some friends over to listen for any difference between that and the heavy AT center weight I have been using.

Absolutely not. Any added mass in no good. It is additional stress on the bearing and motor and there are much better solutions out there. They are also a PITA to use and endanger the stylus in several ways.

If you want to flatten the record and press it into the vinyl get a reflex clamp like the Sota or JA Michell clamps. Many high end manufacturers use this solution instead of vacuum like SME, Kuzma, Sota and Avid. 

pindac

thanks for the reference, but both the Denon’s and JVC Victor's were flying saucer designs, have a look at my TT81

http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-81.html

Wayne says one of his ringswill fit, hard to believe, but he should know.

What is your experience with getting it properly centered?

lewm,

I think it was you and a few others that led me to the TT81 and made me aware of the potential trouble with a TT101 or 801. It was then that the 101 became synonymous with Jag V12 in my mind. (I owned and loved 1994 Jag XJS Slant 6, a wonderful car).

I am happy, remember the ’NOS" TT81 I found and thought about buying. reaction was: TT81 very reliable, plentiful, don’t worry.

I just got to page 33 or so, halcro linked his video showing TT81 maintained speed with 3 tonearms creating Stylus drag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3WeNPtfLBc

maybe I will finish today, 36 pages, is it a record length?

Correct; I do not get your “sense of humor”. But I gather you followed Halcro’s advice, if that is what he wrote.  As far as I know, he is very happy with his TT101.

The Link is to the producer of Periphery Rings I was in communication with.

A Phosphor Bronze with custom weights produced to suit a SP10 MkII was being discussed, and was an option I could consider.

There is quite a few users of this producers products and the forum discussion about the workmanship and service is very positive.

lewm,

you just don’t get my sense of humor. JP Jones name was the inspiration.

I am suggesting EVERY TT101, and EVERY Jag V12 powered XJS, ever made, be Deep Sixed!!!!

A monstrous sigh of relief.

I believe, after many years od that discussion it was Halcro who wrote:

An alternative would be to buy a TT-81 for $400 on HiFiDo and live happily ever after 😁👍

I don’t understand.

First, JP never suggested dumping Victor DD turntables. Second, in my experience the TT101 has been 100% reliable since JP repaired it. Or do you advocate dumping them because you may not be able to fit a ring?

lewm,

I am going slowly thru halcro's old thread about JVC TT101. from 2011.

JP Jones, ought to be John Paul Jones, i.e. DEEP SIX the Beasts!

Six Leagues Under the Sea is where they belong.

What a masochistic club, you only need merge with Jaguar V12 owners to be completely happy.

There must be a survivor mentality, however short lived.

you are right, and I am having a hard time believing Wayne that one of his will work on my TT81.

Elliott, I was looking at my TT101 with your quest in mind. As you know, the two platters present the same problem for fitting a perimeter ring. There is very little margin for error. In fact I can think of no “off the shelf” ring that would fit. Certainly my Kenwood ring is not even close. So, if you do invite someone to bring his ring to fit your TT81, I’d advise you to be sure in advance that his ring has a hope of fitting.

What I need, is for someone who has a Perimeter Ring Clamp to come visit, mess/listen, decide!

Plainfield, nj

07062

@lewm those Benz models use a Ruby plate to wrap the coils around. Most cartridges use a ferrous material which increases the output level for any given amount of coil windings, but also (supposedly) causes the assembly to disrupt the magnetic flux when in motion. The downside of the Benz Ruby approach is that it requires much more coil windings to create the same output level (compare to their highest iron cross model Ebony L with 0.26 mV output from 5 ohm coils, or Zebrawood L at 0.4 mV from 12 ohms). But it can also use a much stronger magnet because the armature is not reactive to it. Look at the Gullwing (Ruby) magnet in pics, it’s twice the size of the Glider (iron cross) with the same open body design.

There is an interesting video with Mr Fremer and the Windfeld Ti designer where he briefly mentions the choice of armature material that balances between the two - only slightly ferrous. The Anna uses a completely non-ferrous armature, but not Ruby (polymer?).

Some time ago I too learned you have to be mindful of MC cartridges on some metal platter :)

mulveling, I am surprised to learn that the Benz cartridges you named would have such strong magnets, because they also have high-ish internal resistance for an LOMC, which suggests that the coils have many windings, yet the output is "low". Thus you’d think the cartridges could get by with a weaker magnetic field. On the other hand, my Ortofon MC2000, with an internal R of only 2 ohms and a vanishingly low output is probably dangerous for anyone with a pacemaker; its magnets are scary. The MC2000 inadvertently revealed to me that the Kenwood L07D platter sheet (made of stainless steel) is mildly ferrous; the MC2000 nearly committed suicide by squashing against the sheet. Since then, I had a copper platter sheet made for the L07D; better shielding of the cartridge from the motor EMI and totally nonmagnetic.

It is sooo good to benefit from your collective experiences. I always do,

thanks to everyone who responded,

Elliott

High quality stainless steel is not magnetic at all.  Cheap stainless steel usually is.

I have a VPI Classic 4 that came with a periphery ring, which I promptly sold. It is big, heavy, and an accident waiting to happen. Maybe I'm a little clumsy. My first bad encounter happened with one more than 10 years ago when I bought one for my Classic. When I set my Benz Ruby 3 down, the ring promptly grabbed the cartridge and forcibly drew it over. Amazingly, the stylus was not bent. So, VPI sent me a higher quality SS ring with no ferrous content and that problem was solved, but I still didn't like the overall risk of dropping it on my arm or table.

The Benz Ruby, Gullwing, and LP / LPS models have vastly stronger magnets than any other cartridge (excessively large neodymium). They can do this because the ruby coil plates aren't magnetic at all. But their magnets are insane. You're gonna have a bad time if you happen to try using ferrous hardware to mount them, or if your ring clamp is ferrous at all. I did not encounter such issues with my Clearaudio ring. But I almost trashed my LPS not thinking and using a ferrous flathead screwdriver to start mounting it lol. Fortunately it didn't slap against any delicate bits. 

I have a VPI Classic 4 that came with a periphery ring, which I promptly sold. It is big, heavy, and an accident waiting to happen. Maybe I’m a little clumsy. My first bad encounter happened with one more than 10 years ago when I bought one for my Classic. When I set my Benz Ruby 3 down, the ring promptly grabbed the cartridge and forcibly drew it over. Amazingly, the stylus was not bent. So, VPI sent me a higher quality SS ring with no ferrous content and that problem was solved, but I still didn’t like the overall risk of dropping it on my arm or table, plus the fact that it was hard to center. So I sold that one too. Fast forward to now: I use a VPI screw down clamp that I modified myself to accommodate the 1/4 inch thickness of my Funk Firm Achromat. It works very well. Very few records aren’t completely flattened by it. Take SME for example. They have thought about pretty much everything regarding proper LP playback - to their high standards, IMO. They don’t offer a ring clamp, but an excellent screw down clamp. That, I think, speaks volumes. As far as improving speed stability, the platter is already very heavy! The big improvement I made was to upgrade the motor to the SOTA Eclipse motor, plus I got the Condor and RoadRunner. And I run one excellent Origin Live Belt. That has made a tremendous measured and audible difference.

Never used one but Merrill Audio has one made from bronze about half the weight of the VPI, FYI.

I’ve used the Clearaudio ring almost 10 years now. It’s matched to the Clearaudio table via a lexan interface ring (which stays on the delrin platter), so it goes on easy and centered. If you have to center the ring as a separate step, that’s going to suck and you’ll probably give up on using it.

I’m so used to the ring it doesn’t inconvenience me. You have to be mindful of cueing stylus to lead-in groove. Sometimes I simply sacrifice the first couple music grooves to ensure safety. I’ve used a number of multi-K cartridges like Koetsu and no incidents. Actually the body of my Blue Lace rides fairly low and will kiss/scrape against the ring for the first few/several grooves! No problems other than freaking me out the 1st time :) 

Many years ago when I came to understand the benefits of a peripheral ring, I was also worried about making a small mistake in placing the stylus on the record.  So I modified my set-up slightly and the stylus goes down perfectly each time.  I can do it blindfolded.

Though it is set for a VPI arm and you can see it here, I'm sure it can be adapted to any arm that uses an arm rest to lower the stylus.  As I say in the post, I would use this even if I had no peripheral ring.

I've had a TTW V2 ring for years. You can see it on a pic in my system. I use it for every record, flat or not. It is incredibly simple to use once you get into the habit of doing it. I have never had an issue with it interfering with either the VPI  Zephyr, Lyra Kleos or Sumiko Spalding carts. However I would imagine big cubic block carts may have a problem touching the ring at the very beginning of records even so it is ultra thin. Also I never inadvertently lowered the stylus on the ring with the use of the VPI drop lever. With the right cart an outer ring is an absolute necessity IMO, much better than vacuum systems that won't work with all warps. Would never live without it again. 

If you have a VPI and the periphery ring you should definitely use it.  Watch your woofers when you first set the stylus in the groove and see if they are wobbling and if that is reduced when you use the ring.  Also watch a few of your "flat" records closely and see if the tonearm is moving up and down as the record is spinning around.  You might be surprised.  If you're not, maybe you don't need the ring. 

I think you would have to try really hard to damage your stylus with the VPI ring.  The ring should fit over the edge of the record (there are some records that are pressed a little bit smaller than the diameter of the ring) so there's no valley for the stylus to fall into. 

If you somehow manage to drop the stylus on the ring, I'm not sure how the diamond would fare on the smooth stainless steel, but I doubt it would cause much if any damage before you realized what you did and lifted it up.  Do you currently drop the stylus outside the record?

When I sold my VPI I immediately missed the periphery ring.  The VPI center clamp is well designed and works well on most records, but the periphery ring is better.

Look for a good dealer to buy from….

My VPI came with the "ring" but I have as yet to use it. I am nervous about it damaging my $3,000 cartridge. I use a Stillpoints weight which works pretty well. Most of my vinyl is pretty flat. My turntable can certainly handle the extra weight of the ring and center weight if used. 

Like the center weight, I assumed a perimeter weight would provide more stability to the lp on the platter as the stylus works against it.

"warps not my concern" but thats what a peripheral ring is for.

I have a VPI with center weight and peripheral clamp......none of my 100's of records experience warp problems

My hand was damaged in an auto accident, I don't have the greatest dexterity to perfectly center it every time, or stand watching to see if properly centered, or extreme caution with stylus drops.

I drop close to the outer edge, gives me time to get back, sit, lift beer glass to ear!, sounds annoying, keep it where ...

Fact is: I thought I would get many who said:, oh hell yes, better sound, do it, do it do it.

Instead, most mentioned warps, not my concern.

You are much better off with a good firm mat and a reflex clamp. 

@elliottbnewcombjr 

I really have no dog in this fight, but I think you're making a mistake.

As you can see if you follow the entire thread that you were referred to to the end, I found audiofool1982's post to be problematic. Have a look there.  There is no way that he could have mounted the ring properly and then have it move in the manner described.  Also if he found a "small dent on the inside of the ring" that he did not place there himself, he would/should  have returned it immediately.  The inside of the ring must be perfect if it is to work correctly!  Because I find this description to lack credibility I really don't believe anything audiofool1982 has to say.  I am certain that we don't have the whole story.

Wayne has been in business for a long time and has sold a lot of rings. Making them requires considerable skill.  His record on Audiogon is unblemished with 174 feedbacks, 100% positive.  A similarly good record at ebay with hundreds of feedbacks. Over time I have recommended Wayne, even though I use a different ring.  And the reason is that Wayne sells rings for about half the price of anyone else.  No one has expressed any disappointment.

A ring was a great addition to my analog rig.  

Elliott, Not that I want to talk you into using a peripheral ring, but what was it about Twoleftears' reference that turned you off so thoroughly to the whole idea of a peripheral ring?  It turned me off to "Wayne's Audio", more than anything else. Anyway, good decision even if for puzzling reasons.

twoleftears

you just put bleach on my itch for a ring, thanks, it's a no go for me after reading that.

everyone,

I wasn't thinking about warps, more about holding ALL LP's more solidly, get more juice into the Stylus. 

I wasn't considering keeping it perfectly centered, forget that, forget it.

thanks, I knew I'd get answers to help me decide

NAY!!!!!!

If one plays used LP's it makes sense if your setup can handle it AND you don't mind additional hassle. 

Have you tried the O ring and clamp to dish the LP? It's the least expensive and effective way to get most LP's reasonably flat.

Scroll down for the post that concerns the ring.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/wayne-s-audio-problems?highlight=wayne

To add a highly specific experience of my own, I have a Kenwood L07D. Kenwood made an accessory outer ring for the L07D, the DS20, which goes to show how old the idea is. When you install the DS20, you are also supposed to activate a switch on the outboard PS which allows the servo to compensate for the added mass; I have not weighed the ring, but it cannot weigh more than a pound or two or three. Because of my own fear of damaging a cartridge, I generally mount the ring on the platter so it sits UNDER the lip of the LP, not acting as a clamp. I have consistently found that I actually prefer the sound of the L07D without the ring. Just an anecdote and not proof of any general principle, except do be thoughtful about the effect of a heavy ring on speed regulation of a DD turntable. Because Kenwood was.

+1 @lewm . I'd also add, the plain inconvenience of it. Vinyl is enough work as it is. Plus I am skeptical of the changes being better. The biggest is the stylus danger IMO. Might be alright with a MM which has a replaceable stylus. But a high $$$ LOMC is going to cost $4-500 to retip. And I hear it changes the sound. Some say the Zyx can't be replaced. I'm going to try it anyway when the time comes

My only experience with the Waynesaudio periphery clamp is through a friend who purchased one for a  VPI Scoutmaster, his issue was with how it lipped up above the edge of the record it sat on and interfered with the body of an AT cartridge at the lead in groove. He switched carts to avoid this issue and has been using in with success for the last 4 years. I myself run a VPI and use their peripheral ring and would not want to be without it as it certainly takes care of any warped albums when used in conjunction with a BDR screw down clamp. Out of 1,600 albums I have about 4 that the ring does not help, due to the disc them selves being cut a little smaller than industry standard and the ring does not catch the lip of the album, I still use it on those albums for the added mas though. @lewm , I saw your post about record flatteners and thought this would be a great way/simplest way to solve this issue if you could find one that works on one of your tables. Enjoy the music

A "yay" from me.

I use an old TTW ring that weighs about 2.5 lbs. and would not be without it. It resolves any warp in a record (and more have a slight warp than is thought). It also adds flywheel to the platter which helps with speed stability and therefore SQ. By this time I place it down quickly without thinking about it. Though I use it on an old VPI platter that could take more weight, it is enough and, at 2.5 lbs, likely not too heavy for many other platters.

One must then just be a bit careful about placing the stylus. You don’t want it running into the ring. I have modified my arm rest to place the stylus perfectly. Solves the issue.

Have you actually placed the ring on yourTT81? Because I am otherwise dubious of the fit. Also, many have reported a danger to the stylus and cantilever when placing the cartridge at the rim of an LP. Finally, what is the mass? I would not automatically assume the TT81 motor and servo will like it.