I am a bit confused as how to compare devices for their surge protection.
The Furman PST-8, using series mode surge protection, rates their product at 135VAC for the "over voltage shutoff."
Shunyata, using a hydraulic electromagnetic breaker, rates their Venom
Amp-1 for 40,000A @ 8/50 microseconds for the "transient protection."
The two companies rate their products using different units of measurement. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Which of these devices provides better protection for surge protection? It seems like there should be a standard for reporting so the general public can compare.
To add to the confusion, PS Audio rates their DirectStream Power Plant 12 (a power regenerator) using 3 sets of units; (1) an "over voltage limit" of continuous 5% of setting along with (2) a "peak surge current" of 90,000A and finally (3) a "maximum surge voltage" of 6,000V with a clamp level 340V.
How do I reconcile this to pick the best protection for my stereo? Thanks so much for any insight you can provide.
Bruce |
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@aberyclark
I don't see any surge protection. |
good thread!!
2009 - Duet Features(Courtesy of PS Audio) Real surge protection Nano Crystalline filters Common Mode filtering Differential mode filtering Unimpeded AC power flow Solid aluminum chassis Over under voltage protection Solid copper delivery system Real
sonic improvements Best filter performance Complete surge and spike protection Low resistance AC path Superior noise reduction Duet Price: $295 in 2009 and I think ther was a sale that saved an added $50.
the Duet was near an entry level piece from PSA back then.
talk here of the Furman item shows perhaps a better value at itds reputed $180 cost.
i should think by now SOTA has ushered in better specs or developments in the tech being used by PSA and others, but even with what is stated herein these units saved my uh, ‘stuff’ 3 separate times from direct and near by lightening strike incidents.
as well, even an older PSA UPC 200 kept my office PC and associated hardware from going belly up.
perhaps its not any one item of tech (series mode) that saves gear from under or over power line issues and lightening, but an amalgamation of the tech being applied en masse.
BTW… two of these Duets are still in operation ten years later.
maybe too a companies ‘reputation’ says something about its products durability and performance.
if better is abailable and likely there is now, from PSA and others, then certainly investigate it/them as is your opportunity.
I’m sure the next more recent passive PLC I will look at first will be the devices made by PSA based solely on my EXP with them which matters a lot to me.
this is not to say that PSA will end up being the one I buy… but from their service and performance I’ve gotta keep them high on the list, if not first overall.
RE Passive vs Active PLC/filter
I’ve auditioned a number of passive and active power line ‘treatment’ units from the likes of Equitech, Isotech, sahnling, PSA, and Running springs.
not one active/regenerating power cond. did I feel aided the audio presentation. I felt they bleached the sound. removed the wettness, dehydrated the luster of the tones.
only in an all tube arrangement with a tube cDP, line stage and mono amps being all tube formulated did the sQ come off resembling anything close to reality. that unit as I recall was a Chang light speed piece supplying SET monos.
certainly taste plays a part in anything one will keep in their audio system, and this says something more about my tastes perhaps in sonics than what another might percieve from an active regenerating power line cond.
just looking for one partivular bit of tech may be shortsighted, and it may well be a better tact to look at the overall, view like the maker’s rep, especially when attempting to gain both protection and improved audio quality.
why makers use different means to market their devices and not adhere to more common means is exactly that… marketing tactics.
this maker or that one decided quoting their own measurements in one capacity or another ‘sounds’ better… at leasst to them so that is why they account things in proprietary means.
power ratings used to have this same perplexity until RMS came along and makers began quoting watts as RMS instead of Peak, or other fashions.
looks like one will have to reach out to the brand X maker and ask specifically if they will warranty lightening, over and under current/voltage issues, etc., before making a final choice, as the sonic concerns will be plainly evident once it is installed and run in.
Have fun!
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I am a bit confused as how to compare devices for their surge protection.
The Furman PST-8, using series mode surge protection, rates their product at 135VAC for the "over voltage shutoff."
Right. So the SMP is always on, there’s no activation lag. It also provides relatively low over-voltage protection. These may not be surges, but long lasting events. This can happen if your electric provider doesn’t balance the loads right.
Shunyata, using a hydraulic electromagnetic breaker, rates their Venom
Amp-1 for 40,000A @ 8/50 microseconds for the "transient protection."
Yep, and it’s just not as good. - It will short surges to ground, and then you are at the mercy of the house wiring, as well as stress the house wiring. Any issues there will increase the voltage at your gear.
- It takes time to activate.
- During the surge, it is high current (40,000A), potentially stressing the home wiring, not to mention lighting on fire (see thermally protected MOV videos for examples)
The SMP approach is no lag, and low current during a surge hit. The parallel approach always has lag, and is a high current at surge. A high speed surge (and any noise over 3 kHz) on the hot or neutral line MUST appear at the surge protector, instead of the protected gear. |
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Would you plug your pre-amp into a power conditioner/protector and amp into wall (I have a ss 18 wpc First Watt)? Thanks for any advice
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Surge protection aside, I would personally plug my gear directly into the wall socket only when the outlet is a dedicated line. Otherwise you may get noise from all other devices that are sharing the line. These could include light dimmers, microwave ovens, hair dryers, etc., etc. In addition to noise, the voltage in the line may also fluctuate if you have any appliances which turn on/off - think refrigerator compressor, sharing that line. |
As mentioned above....whole house surge protection.
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1. Whole house surge protection.
2. Multiple, de-rated, 20A dedicated lines.
3. Separate lines for each amplifier (system is bi-amped)
4.) Separate lines for analog and digital.
5.) Every component goes into a power conditioner. |
whole house surge protection!
great idea. no question about it.
however, not a solution if one lives in an apartment or condo.
additionally in homes, installing an isolation T former would be a help.
Dedicated lines are a very good idea though these only reduce, and do not eliminate collateral noise. remember all the neutrals and grounds are connected at the service.
installing dedicated lines should then be on the same phase and if possible, a phase different from what is supplying most major appliances. as said, Micros, 'fridges, dish washers, washing machines, etc.
avoiding the lines ovens, dryers, and hot water heaters use is unavoidable as they are sucking off both phases periodically.
several problems solved!
... but then we're back to the reputed grunge living on the incoming power and a consequent need for filtering it out, or at least ameliorating it.
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Pretty expensive solution cleeds. I'm not sure why everyone thinks separate lines will reduce noise. The are all connected to the same main.
Any power supply worth is salt filters noise. It should be particularly good at filtering 60 Hz noise. You would get much more bang for the buck buying a more powerful amp than buying a line conditioner. Put shorting plugs on the inputs of your amps and put your ear right up to the speaker. You hear any noise? I don't even with my preamp hooked up on a shorted input with the volume all the way up. No noise, none. Yes the phono preamp has some tube rush. Preamp on my usb input to which my computer is connected with the volume all the way up, no noise. All my front end goes to one surge protecting power strip. The amps have 20 amp dedicated lines but no power conditioner. No noise. People will say that I am just lucky and have clean power. Every modern system I have set up is powered the same way, no noise ( excluding phono amps). I also do not use analog preamps which is part of it for sure. Analog preamps will have at least a little noise. Does a little noise affect the sound quality. If it does us vinyl people are in for it. Is it all just a marketing scam aimed at gullible audiophiles? |
@erik_squires Thanks for your feedback Erik and all the clear & concise input you have contributed to this topic in the various threads over the last week. It has been helpful and very much appreciated.
@blindjim Thanks for your empathy and encouragement in this confusing topic. |
Panamax m 4300 ex, do the job for me + stones and crystals I added myself with great success... |
The question is are the crystals working on the rf or the vibration. |
They works on the 2, RF and vibrations, but I am not the physicist, you are Geoffkait... |
I throw the breaker and unplug. Also took the Cable TV off the system. I can hook it up when I want to quickly. Every house on my block/street had been hit by lightning. I really can't handle that nightmare. |
I second a prior comment about the more costly Audioquest Niagara power conditioners improving the quality of sound. I own a Niagara 1000, a purchase suggested by our audio dealer, now replaced by the 1200, which is about $1,000. Improvement in sound was quite noticeable. My wife noticed it too. We both play instruments and go to concerts of acoustic music (classical and jazz) and could hear the improvement in clarity. We have a high number of very short-term outages. Our prior APC S20 surge protector, power conditioner with battery back-up did not improve sound, but see below.
As to surges, whole house surge protection and devices like the Niagara will not product your equipment from lightning induced power surges. I had my power amp repaired on two separate occasions due to lightning induced damage. The surge came through the cable tv line, into the pre-amp, then the amp. If you live in an area with heavy thunderstorm activity you need to add a surge protector on your cable tv input to your system. The APC S20 and other less costly products typically have sacrificial surge protectors (work once, like a old-fashioned fuse) to protect 75-ohm coaxial inputs from cable tv.
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Thank you for the kind words, @brskie
Always happy to help others enjoy more music. :)
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Kalali: do you think the electricity to recharge the Tesla batteries comes free? |
I'm using a Wattbox and to be honest I'm still getting some buzzing it maybe that my source line has some kind of feed back loop in it. I've tried so many different amps and RCA/XLR hook ups and all the same BS..lol. From what I have read surge protectors can help with surges but that all depends on how many components are in it. I know PS Audio has some wonderful power conditioners and surge boxes that are really good but they are priced well over my budget.
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I live in a loft that has 100 other tenants the power is dirty from a lot of appliances. Tried a Niagara 5000 not that much of a difference in the noise floor for the money.
Traded it in for a New PS Audio 15 Power Generator Huge Difference. Also you can call them with any questions and in most cases get an immediate response.
My Marantz AV newest model 8805 went dead on one side had the dealer contact the company for service 14 days later still no response. ( this is off the topic put has anyone else had these issue with Marantz CS?)
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Surge protectors are better than nothing. They protect mostly against high freqency spikes and line frequencies in the khz range. They kick in about 200v so your class D powet suppy is very susceptible just like a computer. It is essentially a music computer. Isolation transformers with HF filters are very good cleaning up the line
UPS units can be good but need to be continuous sign wave type. Much of the big amps will far exceed a UPS ability unless tou shell out big bucks. |
I have a Furman IT Ref 15i and all equipment is plugged into it. This includes my Primaluna Dialogue Prem HP Integrated amp. Sounds beautiful! |
Have all my kit plugged into a Niagara 7000 with a Hurricane 20 amp pc to the wall. It has given me peace of mind from power surges - lost a alovely pre amp in the past. The real bonus is the way it has transformed the performance of my Devialet amps. Massively improved detail, bass, faster transients and blacker background. Quite expensive but worth it IMO.
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@aberyclark how did you make the decision to go for the Torus TOT MAX? I'm curious, it looks good.
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Hi
my take on these surge protector etc.
I feel it is good for your preamp,cd players
dac,Transport.
your amp needs to go directly into the wall
outlet.
i had a lot of surge protector etc.and my
amp or amps never sounded good going into.
Keep your amp in the wall outlet. |
OK, I only saw a mention of this, this thread raises this question: I'm in Florida where it is pretty dirty. (I've replaced refrigerator circuit boards and the like, because of the surging energy.) I have absolutely no surge protectors on my main equipment to keep the sound level high. But Florida's utility department, FPL, periodically will send me an advertisement for their whole-house surge protection (for some $15/month.) The very concept of this miffs me, as I feel they should be providing this for free, not causing me to buy an add-on. But perhaps that's the nature of a lightning-strike area. My question is, if I went with such an option, do you think this will leave my sound quality untouched?
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Lowrider, I did quite s bit of research and for the money, the Torus TOT series gets great reviews worldwide. Plus, I got a great recommendation from a dealer so trust. The unit will arrive tomorrow. Besides looking forward to protection, I’m looking forward to declutter the mess J currently have running cables to a strip. I’m going to place the Torus on the middle shelf of my system. |
Hi @donzi !
I think one thing you should consider is hot good your system will sound after a lightning strike.
As for the utility service, it’s a shame it isn’t free, especially in Florida, but since it is at your meter and is a shunt, it won’t affect your sound quality. I encourage you to consider having a whole house suppressor installed in your panel. At least that way you won't be buying a subscription. :)
In Florida, of all places, I strongly recommend you get a high quality series mode surge suppressor near any gear you want to keep.
Best,
Erik
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@eric>
series mode
it should be obvious SM is not the only and likely not even the primary ‘protector’ tech inside some dual ‘surge and SQ enhancing devices.
as such I’m wondering why it is such an obvious note you feel is of dire importance for any one to acquire in such equipment, lest they be at risk?
albeit in and of itslef it may well be a barrier or defender for high energy issues, its certainly not the ONLY bit of tech keeping higher energy issues from destroying our gear and consequently it is not a MUST HAVE item in the ‘what ever’ chosen device.
sorry,. just saying….
RE Zap Cap for the Sunburn State via Fla Power & light
my local energy resource has the same gizmo. its a one off, once hit it is gone approach. naturally replacing it is the duty of the provider and at no cost to the consumer.
they afix it to the service pole at the weatherhead or inside the meter box.
for the belt and suspenders tact, why not? however, input here says there are better solutions for those who have private domiciles and the dough to invest into these auxilliary choices.
additionally, it does nothing for instances wherein lightening comes in on Sattelite or CATV COAX cabling.
or for those still enjoying copper line telephones it is no benefit.
I chose not to add one onto my service and opted for as I’ve said, an alternative solution aimed solely at improving SQ…. because it also aided me protection from a few unstable natural weather incidents was purely an Oh, By the Way happy event..
Thankfully.-
FWIW
another quite intriguing idea I’ve not seen mentioned here is the option of getting off the grid entirely via ‘whole house’ Lithium battery power.
this is a trend in new housing developments in Australia, as of course, an option for the prospective owners/buyers of homes in these developments.
it is available now in the U.S. as a refit for existing homes.
apart from the duty cycle to recharge the batteries, homes exist only off the converted DC. likely there is a full wave bridge rectification going on so the DC emmulates AC, just more precisely as outside issues will not influence such a power resource.
BTW… Yikes! these ain’t cheap but prices annually are decreasing.
add on solar or wind mills or goats and treadmills, or water wheels, or a whole bunch of trained squirrels on itty bitty treadmills in parallel of course,
…and one could end up making money off the local power co. especially if some or much of the install is a DIY project, which is as well offered fully or in part due to its overall modularity.
of course the end result here is contained precise steady state voltage when on the batteries, and natural disasters are not being addressed, nor are interior prevailing electrical annomolies, it serves only to serve up cleaner volts and lower third party provider energy consumption., which for some might be inducement enough. |
A lot of good advice here. I absolutely believe that one must, if at all possible, address power coming into the house, and to add surge protection at the panel/sub panel. After many years of reading posts here and other places, about the Environmental Potentials surge/filter line products, and the fact that they adopted their products for residential after having a considerable market base in industrial, medical, and communications, it’s hard to refute the technical measured evidence of wave form correction, reduction of spikes, and other anomalies that the EP products solve and remediate. If they are used in the most sensitive and critical medical, computing, and yes, military, solutions, I decided that their is real value in adding a device to my AC panel to eliminate those same type of “grunge” things affecting my listening experience. I also have dedicated 20 amp lines for the stereo and home theater room, and also use PS Audio P10 for amps, and P5 for all source products. I also added the Rhodium Furtutech outlets and carbon covers. Coincidentally, I have never felt that I needed to purchase Uber expensive power cables because the system sounds great as it with the aforementioned in place. I do have a Shunyata black mamba power cable on the Aesthetix IO Signature phono stage, and regular cables everywhere else. No nasties coming through. My amps are McIntosh MC2301, and I have a compete tube vinyl source feed. I am techie at heart, and always felt measured performance criteria such as THD, IMD, spikes, etc., always affected negatively in some way, the listening experience. If the spikes alone are reduced, that is also preserving our circuits in our most critical and perhaps expensive electronics. Just my two cents. The EP 2050 is the one I am using as it serves as both a surge protector and wave form corrector, it’s an easy solution to add and has enhanced my listening pleasure.
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I hooked up the Torus Tot Max today. What a great piece of gear. I had an oh so light buzz which is now gone. The unit is 50lbs and built like a tank. Plenty of space between outlets so all plug sizes work easily. Extremely snug connections. You have to take some effort to push in.
I pkayed some Nora Jones and the background seemed a little blacker. No issues with imaging or sound changes. I basically got this unit for protection. I highly suggest Torus |
I’m leaning towards a Torus RM 15. Trying to find a deal on a new one
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FWIW I plug my tube integrated 50W PP amp into ExactPower EP15A. It sounds very good to my ears. Comparing to plugging into the wall, EP15A does lower the noise floor (blacker background) and voltage is rock-steady @ 120V and offers surge protection as well. Enjoy your Torus. |
Tling58, you will not be sorry. The unit you are looking at looks to be real winner. |
Kinross,
I also have a Niagara 7000 which is great! I also have a whole house surge protector.
But, when I'm home and there is a lightning storm I still turn off the breakers and unplug.
ozzy
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@erik_squires , thanks!! Good to hear from you again.
Yes, this comment is giving me "religion." I had mis-appreciated the risks. I have a question, if you might know: A local friend, some time back, sold some company's proprietary device to reduce power bills by smoothing minor fluctuations. The box was sealed, but I always imagined that it was simply a large capacitor, installed into the lines somehow. Supposedly, it was most effective where there were multiple motor-type devices involved. Any idea what type of device might offer such "savings"?
And just to ask again what you've already stated, either whole-house, or at-meter, both of these shouldn't diminish sound quality downstream? |
hi @Donzi Yes, it’s called power factor correction. It’s widely available. Furman is one of the few conditioner vendors I know of who include it in some models since it helps with current delivery a tad. The idea (my memory is rusty) with PF correction is that motors may draw current out of phase with voltage, which may make your meter read more power than you are actually drawing. Install a corrector, and your meter reading will get more accurate, and the bills will drop. You can read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factorThere are industrial series mode surge protectors available, but I don’t know of anyone installing them in their homes. All the other tech I know of is shunt/parallel and are inactive until the surge arrives. BTW, for this reason having an excessively good power conduction from your meter to your amp is a bad idea. You are going to be closer to the surge when it hits. A little reactance in the way will blunt it and give the whole house devices time to work. OTOH, that same reactance makes typical MOV based suppressor strips a bad idea, as the voltage during the surge will be greater when they short. For this reason I recommend: - Whole house suppressors at the panel
- Normal wiring
- Series mode suppressors at the delicate electronics.
Best, E |
It doesn’t take a lot to address the noise on the Household AC lines. Anything that uses a transformer will simply deteriorate the sound quality. We’ve simplified what goes in the box so you get more out of your sound system.
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I tried running my Pass 150.8 into a Bryston BIT 20 power conditioner and got a continuous slight constant hum out of the Bryston so I moved it to a regular Isotek surge supressor and the hum disappeared. The Bryston is essentially (I believe) just a big isolation transformer and Bryston encourages you to plug your power amps and sources both into one. I still power my sources through the Bryston isolation transformer but the Pass goes direct via a surge supressor.
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I'm currently running my 2 PS Audio M700 mono blocks into a Furman E15i with Power Factor technology.
The Schiit Freya Preamp is is plugged into the wall..
Both are on separate dedicated circuits with Oyaide AC Recepticle's (all flavors)..
Works great !!
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Stanley , I've read a few
a big deal is no piggie
back surge protection Stay clear of it . witch means first plug is the Best then get worse down the line. Stay away from that style The people in here mostly have that one PS Audio most likely thay do mid fi. jump back 1 |
I
recently had an Integrated Amp fail and it occurred to me that it was
the only component in my 2.1 audio system that didn’t have any
surge suppression. I've always kept it plugged directly into the wall
outlet since I experienced slight sound degradation (bass &
dynamics) when plugged into various line filters/surge suppressors.
Wanting better equipment protection, I looked into available
protection methods and decided that a good series-mode surge
suppressor was more than up to the task. After reading numerous
reviews, I decided to give the Zero Surge 8R15W a try. Very nice
people to deal with and their discount for military personnel and
veterans made for an easy decision.
I received the unit
and installed it in my system. Am happy to report that there was no
degradation in sound quality when the Integrated Amp was plugged into
the Zero Surge suppressor versus plugging directly into the wall
outlet. I then decided to also plug the subwoofer into the Zero Surge
and found no measurable (SPL) difference in sub performance. At that
point, I sat down and listened to various recordings and noticed that
the sound seemed to be smoother and better integrated. Perhaps having
a common ground point and power feed for all the components is
responsible for the improvement. Also knowing that everything is well
protected is comforting.
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for all front end equipment I use a Core Power 1800, expecting a Deep Core any day
Amp was also plugged in, but loses a good bit of speed, so direct to wall, which is a 20 amp dedicated line
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Tweak1...if you mean EquiCore 1800, then +1.
I'm using the same power setup and experiencing a very low noise floor.
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I have my Gryphon Colosseum running into an AudioQuest Niagara 5000 and I’m happy with how it sounds. I hope it gives my gear some protection from lightning strikes. When I’m home, I still unplug everything when the weather app on my iPhone says there was a lightning strike nearby. Thank goodness for weather radar systems.
I had a Tesla Powerwall installed in my mom’s house as a battery backup system. About $8k. She loses power out in the suburbs quite regularly when a power line goes down somewhere. One battery can give two days of power, depending on draw.
You can’t put the battery in a living space and it weighs about 500lbs, if I recall correctly. It can go outside. I suppose it would be cool to have it power a stereo and with a couple of batteries and solar, you could live off grid. |
