R2R Ladder DACs or All in One Streamer Solutions

I have been down this road when I had to replace my hybrid amp. I bought a Schitt  headphone amp/tube buffer. It was too much going directly into the new amp but worked well in my phone stage. I bought an RME ADI-2 and was able to just slightly tone down the treble and got what what I wanted. Tubes are great but tricky and each tube family has a sound.

Yes having two outputs on a source can be beneficial. Like adding a headphone amp to a speaker based system.

+1 on MHDT Labs Orchid. Love NOS & love that DAC. 

In fact, it makes me curious what the other MHDT models sound like. 

BTW, Linear Tube Audio, the U.S. distributor for MHDT Labs, was kind enough to add a 2nd RCA output pair on the back of my unit (reasonable cost). I find it incredibly helpful to have dual DAC outputs in my complicated desktop system. This is another reason I like my Orchid.

i'll toss out one that no one will think of. Schiit Audio upper end DAC's are multi bit (r2r) the Gungnir Multi bit dac is $1299 i have one and am quite pleased.  They have a really good deal on the  YGGDRASIL GS $1599 the normal version is $2499 so that could be a smoking deal for the sound you get. 

https://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil-gs

I had a Moodlab "Concept" dac years ago. As far as I know this used a simple R2R dac, and it had no oversampling and no output filter. I bought it out of curiosity, to see just how bad it would sound. I thought it sounded fine. Nothing special, nothing that particularly stood out to me compared to my CD player or DVD player. I thought I perceived some slight difference with it being ever so slightly brighter and lighter sounding, but couldn't say that for sure, and definitely couldn't say if it was better or worse.

I don't have any first hand experience with them but Cocktail Audio makes all in one streamer/ripper/storage devices. 

@chorus Lumin streamers don't rip and store. For that you'd need to use a computer (Lumin sells an L1 NAS, but any computer or NAS will work).

Aurender and Innuos both have a few models that include a CD drive for ripping and internal drives for storage. But you're going to be paying more than if you ripped and stored your music on your existing computer. The least expensive ripper + streamer option is probably the Bluesound VAULT 2i.

...he’s still going and using I think an R2R d/a conversion still, the one AMR also uses in their DP-777 dac the TDA1305 which was originally made by Philips for Discman use!!!!

Looks as though you've confused UDA1305 with TDA1305. The former is most likely a re-marking of TDA1545 (or something similar like TDA1387). An earlier design than TDA1305 which has some lack-lustre opamps on-board. TDA1305 is definitely not R2R (oversampled design) but UDA1305 probably would qualify as that.

And look at that, he’s still going and using I think an R2R d/a conversion still, the one AMR also uses in their DP-777 dac the TDA1305 which was originally made by Philips for Discman use!!!! for it’s low power consumption I believe.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-kit-TDA1305-TDA1315-Multi-input-USB-Optical-Coaxial/322891865956?hash=i...

Cheers George

Actually abraxalito you just jogged the memory, it was a ’raindrop_hui’ one, ok it had very low order filtering and their was a touch of noise on the output the way he liked it, but it punished the the MF A3/24 musically using the same transport.

Cheers George

By using the comment "cheap no name Chinese DAC" you are showing yourself to be the real racist

False - rather racism is shown by projecting it onto others in the absence of evidence. Which @georgehifi did do in this case so my conclusion is the same as yours.

Even "cheap" no name Chinese DACs.  There was never anything remotely racist in what I said. Stop dog whistling to hide you lie. By using the comment "cheap no name Chinese DAC" you are showing yourself to be the real racist. I will go out on a limb and say I have far far more experience dealing with Chinese companies that you ever will. 你说的任何语言都不诚实

Get off your racist pulpit sunshine, of course the Chinese are extremely capable, just like anyone, just look at a few these days Holo Denafrips, etc etc

T'aint racist to critique Taobao DAC offerings - I've bought plenty and implementations in general are poor. You did specifically say 'no name' and now you've introduced names. I would agree that the named guys do a much better job than the el-cheapo Taobao DACs designed by spare-timers. Early on there was one called 'raindrop_hui' but that was the name of his reseller - he was relatively clueless as regards EE but that didn't stop him selling tons of TDA1541 DACs.

If you must know one of the no name Chinese was a nude TDA1541 complete made board from ebay for around $100 all it needed is a power supply added, the owner mounted it all on a block of wood!

And it was probably a $200 CD player too.

 ...I point out that it was not too long ago that DACs based on the 1541 were not considered good, but suddenly they are again.

Have you noticed that implementations of the 1541 have changed in the intervening time? My first CD player used LM833 as I/V and filter stage. Seen any recent designs going that route?

even cheap no name ones from China Why do people make up stories?

Really, call all you like, do you think Chinese can’t put a dac together, your so wrong buddy. You have your head in the sand. https://ibb.co/BjRSjp5

Ya I am calling that one out ... even cheap no name ones from China huh?  Sure.

Why do people make up stories?  Ask any DAC designer (good ones) and they will tell you the implementation, i.e. output stages, power supply, clocks, etc. matter far more than the DAC architecture. Cheap ones from China ... if you are going to tell tales, at least keep them remotely believable.

The PCM1738 is a segmented DAC

Musical Fidelity used the PCM1738 Delta Sigma dac in 2002 in their A3/24 this was the start of the "new wave" because it was way to expensive to produce R2R chips with the multitude of laser trimmed resistors in them like in the TDA1541 and PCM1702 and 04 and more.
We A/B’d the that MF A3/24 which was mine against R2R dacs, even no name ones from China, which used the TDA1541 and PCM1702/4, and on RedBook CD using the same transport, the R2R chip’ed dacs reined supreme.
And today the "Discrete R2R" like my MSB, my friends Total are even better again than those old "chip based" R2R d/a converters.

Cheers George

I can be passionate about technical details, but please understand I absolutely think personal preference (our ears) are the most important. It does not matter what I think or link, it matters what you like. However, I think it is important not to get caught up in the flavor of the month and let the "masses", or perhaps it is the "crowd" decide what currently you should "like".  That is why I point out that it was not too long ago that DACs based on the 1541 were not considered good, but suddenly they are again. Which is not to say you don't love your DAC, because you obviously do.  If I had to guess, it has little to do with the 1541, and a lot to do with the overall design, warts and all. Warts are good in audio.  We are working very hard to add warts to recorded music these days. People like warts.

jbmac7594 posts11-08-2020 8:52pmOk, do not know now? Was kind of liking my tubed MHDT Orchid. Maybe I should like? Maybe I should not? My ears are still deciding, for 4 months now. So far it is one of my favorites. My ears will decide. Enjoy!

Interesting piece of info posted by @decooney..."Formed in 2002: Music Heaven Development Team (MHDT)". Wondered what that acronym was. 

Ok, do not know now? Was kind of liking my tubed MHDT Orchid. Maybe I should like? Maybe I should not? My ears are still deciding, for 4 months now. So far it is one of my favorites. My ears will decide. Enjoy!

Correct, RedBook, 16/44, 24/96, or DXD, done with R2R Multibit and done right is "Bit Perfect", where DS (Delta Sigma, 1-Bit, Bit-Stream, Single Bit), is just a facsimile. But it does do DSD, but then there a few discrete R2R Multibit dacs out now that can also do DSD now.

They absolutely are not bit-perfect. They have non-linearities, settling time issues, flicker noise, etc.  They are just simpler to understand than sigma-delta. At the end of the day, all that matters is that the analog waveform that comes out looks like the one that went in.  Getting hung up on data converter architecture is silly unless you specifically want the artifacts that come with that technology.

To me the best Delta Sigma dac chip I’ve heard doing RedBook, was one that used a Delta Sigma Burr Brown dac chip in a YBA Dac and Shanling CD , but it was a Hybrid, having the first 4 bits as multibit but the rest taken over with Delta Sigma, that was the Burr Brown PCM1794 or 94 or 98?

It seems to me that TI (Texas Instruments/Burr Brown) with their later dacs "are coming about face" to R2R again and doing these 4 bit Hybrids, instead of their full Delta Sigma PCM1738 etc, as to do full R2R (eg PCM1702/1704etc) is going back to very high costs again because of the manufacturing of them eg: laser trimming all those R2R resistors.) Where doing 4 bit is not too expensive but gives increased sound quality.

The PCM1738 is a segmented DAC (TI Advanced Segment DAC) as has been probably almost every single IC based sigma delta converter for audio in the last 20 years. Using a multi-bit modulator allows for much better practical implementations of SD audio DACs.

Actually those classic cars do get trounced by modern designs in virtually every aspect. Acceleration, handling, top speed, fuel economy, rel world handling over uneven surfaces. You name it. It's not even close.

A classic car does not get "trounced" by a modern piece of junk. Indeed, it becomes "classic" not just because people are sentimental but because of design.

Look at something as simple as  Tesla Model-3 Dual Motor Performance. There isn't a standard production 911 pre-2010 that can beat it 0-60 or in the quarter mile. Those are relatively modern 911's, never mind Classic. Nothing front engine production even comes close due to lack of traction.

Modern performance production road cars are pushing 1.2g on road rated tires. In 1990, barely old enough to be a classic, the best production car hit 0.94g.

Today's base Mustang with the little 2.3 Ecoboost runs a 5.1 0-60, and with typical incentives that's off the lot for $25K + taxes.  In 2000, only the SVT Cobra could beat it and that was $55000 then, a lot more in today's dollars.

I can't think any measure that cars in the past were superior, except ease of repair, which was good, because you did that a whole lot more.

More bits isn’t always better.

Correct, RedBook, 16/44, 24/96, or DXD, done with R2R Multibit and done right is "Bit Perfect", where DS (Delta Sigma, 1-Bit, Bit-Stream, Single Bit), is just a facsimile. But it does do DSD, but then there a few discrete R2R Multibit dacs out now that can also do DSD now.

To me the best Delta Sigma dac chip I’ve heard doing RedBook, was one that used a Delta Sigma Burr Brown dac chip in a YBA Dac and Shanling CD , but it was a Hybrid, having the first 4 bits as multibit but the rest taken over with Delta Sigma, that was the Burr Brown PCM1794 or 94 or 98?

It seems to me that TI (Texas Instruments/Burr Brown) with their later dacs "are coming about face" to R2R again and doing these 4 bit Hybrids, instead of their full Delta Sigma PCM1738 etc, as to do full R2R (eg PCM1702/1704etc) is going back to very high costs again because of the manufacturing of them eg: laser trimming all those R2R resistors.) Where doing 4 bit is not too expensive but gives increased sound quality.

Cheers George

Formed in 2002: Music Heaven Development Team (MHDT):

ABOUT THE BRAND, old article. Still in business in 2020.

The gang of four founded Mhdt Lab in 2002 and are known as: ‘"Music Heaven Development Team".

They had decided to begin designing DACs to bring the feeling and fun back to digital. Motivated by the shortcomings of most DACs to faithfully convey, with spirit, varying styles of music, they have successfully created affordable great sounding and flexible little gems. Asynchronous and synchronous inputs, BNC, USB, RCA, and Toslink. The best of R-2R Burr-Brown PCM56P-J DACs, and a single NOS GE5670 vacuum tube buffered output stage in its circuit design brings the soul into the digital realm.

“‘Less is more’ is still the major rule we follow in our designs. By using the PCM56P, and due to its current output, we can omit the use of amplification (the op-amp), which provides a purer signal than can be achieved with a more complicated circuit.”

Along with Burr-Brown PCM chips, the Philips TDA1541 series chips were imbedded into the mhdt designs as being another 16-bit chip that produced a very musical and enjoyable result. More bits isn't always better. 

Dacs are probably the least important part of the reconstruction chain. Any modern 24 or 32 bit DS dac implemented by a competent design team is all you need. Actually I haven’t the faintest idea what DAC chip I’m using other than I know it’s DS and frankly don’t care. I hear no distortion or noise in the quiet parts of classical music nor the banging of rock. R2R chips can be implemented to be indistinguishable from mediocre newer chips and I doubt I could hear a difference but it seems that isn’t the goal of these types of DACs they want a sound signature not a transparent reproduction of the source. To answer the OP question get a all in one and quit worrying about what DAC chip it has.

How much less? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpVpIaC6QrM&ab_channel=JohnCleese

I bought my MHDT Labs Orchid because I'm all about the flavor of the month.  I could care less how it sounds, I just want to be one of the cool kids.  So yeah, I got rid of my Auralic Vega (much newer and a lot more features, but no cool factor) and kept the Orchid.  What are these chip things you guys are talking about anyways?  My Orchid runs on NOS, like my Honda Accord.

At this point I recommend one with volume control as you request. A big rotary pot with level indicator display.. All play apps have software (remote) volume ctrl. It also includes 4 digital inputs for source pass through selection, headphone amp and DSP with calibrated mic. mini DSP SHD Studio. I power one with an UltraCap 1.2 but a Teddy Pardo would be a fine choice instead down the road. I will say that the 1.2  @  12 volts runs 140°  and I put a AC Infinity mini fan on it.
I still believe that a cheap Topping DAC will exceed the Oppo but if you want a sweet spot look at a RME ADI-2 DAC.
It has EQ, a remote and enough features to keep you busy for months.
These are just suggestions, good luck finding a perfect fit.

The owner of MHDT, Jiun, reportedly started buying up as many of these chips as possible and they became the foundation of an enormously popular model of DAC. Clearly it's not "functionally obsolete." You can read around to see others on this chip. A classic car does not get "trounced" by a modern piece of junk. Indeed, it becomes "classic" not just because people are sentimental but because of design. That's why the reference to Frank Lloyd Wright is in my post, too. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. Over and out.

They DACs they enabled sounded bad 30 years ago.

Do you have examples to share where the bad sound was the fault of the DAC chip?

Classic cars are nice to look at. Put it on the track with something modern and it gets trounced.


Those who claim classic cars are "better" than modern cars are using the same congitive dissonance of those claiming that the TDA1541 magically enabled better DACs 30 years after it became functionally obsolete.

I am making the argument that there is nothing inherently "good" about TDA1541 DACs just that they are the flavor of the month for a subset of the audiophile community.  They DACs they enabled sounded bad 30 years ago. Their performance hasn't changed .... the audiophiles who support them ...

Surely if there are classic cars, classic homes, classic amps, there can be classic chips. Occasionally, people know WTF they’re doing and they implement things beautifully. "Oh, that old Frank Lloyd Wright house? Who’d want to live in that?" Um, me.

Oh, and: http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/TDA1541%20corner/TDA1541.html

The point is simple: one can dispute that this chip sounds good or assert that there's a better chip which has come along, but resting one's argument on the fact that something is old is facile.

How did a DAC that was way behind the times 30 years ago (TDA1541) magically become good?

I’m no believer in ’magic’ but seems to me that times changed in the direction of better numbers (THD, SNR) and not in the direction of better sound. So ’behind the times’ is just a piece of propaganda - in fact TDA1541A is the best measuring 16bit DAC chip out there.

@jjss49 
Got it. Thanks. 

-------

yeah, I avoid oversampled echo-chamber unnatural sound.

The TDA1541 was in acclaimed CD players in 1987. It's 2020. Those are the same players considered out of date and poor sounding by the 90s. That DAC was in many of the players that gave digital a bad name. Now it's awesome?

Maybe the Orchid is the fake one compared to the 24 bit. The 24 bit likely sounds much closer to the source. That does not mean you will prefer it. Most people prefer "fake".

Wow it will take some effort to lose that vision!

You may want to consider the new Modwright modification of the Cambridge CXN v2 digital swiss army knife.  Under the Modwright forum there is discussion on this unit and the after market tube modification....

+1 @decooney on orchid. It’s fantastic. 

@audio2design
How did a DAC that was way behind the times 30 years ago (TDA1541) magically become good?

As we know, the Philips TDA1541 and TDA1540 "16-bit" d/a chips were used in hundreds of different acclaimed CD players. It’s sonic signature is still considered to be "musical" to many. Some DAC designers went back to it, and so did a few diehards buying up the old CD players.

Last year I demo’d a topic shelf 24 bit perfect re-clocked studio DAC at 3x the cost, installed +high end coupling caps in my 16-bit MHDT Orchid (stock TDA1541a chip), +a really good tube.  It wiped the floor in terms of enjoyability and musicality in my system. Same thing with a 16-bit Audio Note DAC.  Could not listen to the highly acclaimed 24-bit perfect DAC for very long. Found it to be dry, boring, fake sounding, not engaging, YMMV.  

George- I did not know about tube buffers. I Want the volume control as well. I Will investigate that.

Jimmy/Neko- The Aires ll day was on my list. Does the Lumin rip and store as well as stream?

Fuzz- I am very open to spending less in these two fast changing arenas.
But if the DAC is not better than what the Oppo has it is of no use.
I will investigate these options, thanks.

Melvin- I will be staying away from the Orchard products until they
offer some protection to my other gear. I will look into Sonore and Pagoda-Thanks.

How did a DAC that was way behind the times 30 years ago (TDA1541) magically become good?

Another option .. the MHDT Lab Orchid (TDA1541) is seeing a lot of love as of late and seems to be the darling of their line right now. I have the Pagoda (PCM1704) and couldn’t be happier with the sound quality. Have you checked out Sonore's Rendu line? Might be just what you're looking for in a streamer/renderer.

USBridge and D10s
https://darko.audio/2020/06/allos-usbridge-signature-review/
Unless you like spending $$$.

I was also going to suggest a Lumin U1 Mini plus either something from Denafrips or Soekris. Use a tube buffer or tube preamp if you want to add a little color.

How about a Lumin U1 mini and a Denefrips pontus.

chorus
I like the R2R ladder sound and want a tube inside for a little balance with the Solid State gear.

If you worried about that, don't get a tube R2R dac or that's what your stuck with.
Get a good solid state R2R dac one that has digital domain volume, just incase you want to use it direct into a power amp down the line.
And if you feel you need a tube somewhere, then just purchase a tube buffer stage separate to go after the R2R dac.

Cheers George