ACPONA should be fun. But trying to gauge how good an amp is within a noisy setting of a show and in the context of a completely unfamiliar system and room will not be possible.
The $8,000 budget is enough to play on a used market and try a couple of integrated amps but you will have to buy and sell. Unless you hit a bullseye on your first attempt which is possible if you have done your research.
Retirement integrated amp for a “fiscal conservative”…..Part 1: I have a plan
Again, I want to thank the many many members who provided their thoughts and insights to my original post on this subject!! The problem is (and its a good problem) you all provided a LOT of advice and recommendations; many diverse, some corroborating, and some conflicting options. I did a lot of reading on several of the integrateds y’all suggested and PM’d a few of you to better understand your thoughts. There are a lot of really smart people who support this Agon forum!! I have a lot more knowledge now, thank you
Which leads to the Plan:
1. Before spending up to $8,000 (my not yet wife approved budget) I need to confirm I can actually hear the sound qualities I’m missing in my current system. Having a 68 year old hearing system with tinnitus, this is a real question for me.
2. I’ve booked a room at the Schaumburg Hyatt for the upcoming AXPONA; a 9hr drive from Huntsville AL.
3. I’ve never attended an audio show, but its been on my bucket list for the past 5 years, so I’ll kill 2 birds with one stone (roadtrip)!
4. I realize that audio shows aren't the optimum listening environment, but if I can hear the sound qualities I’m missing there at the show; then game on identifying an integrated amp that will bring me closer in my system which will be Part 2 of the Plan 😀
5. I’ll start Part 2 there at the show listening to as many systems with integrateds in my price range (I’m fine with buying used and will factor that in to which amps I listen to). Yes, the associated equipment in the chain and the environment will be different than mine, but it will be a great place to start!!
And that’s part of the fun of this hobby/obsession (at least for me); planning and starting the next journey!
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Driving to AXPONA….That’s a good plan even though the room conditions aren’t always ideal. Listening to variety of components within your budget will help narrow your choices. Many exhibitors have private sessions after show hours, try to attend those for more intimate listening. |
Amps are a bit harder to audition under show conditions, however I think that your plan is solid. I attended AXPONA last year and while the easiest thing to audition at a show is speakers, there were some component manufacturers that stood out. Audia Flight, Audionet and Vinnie Rossi (Brama) all stood out to me. AXPONA is a lot of fun, regardless of whether you find your dream amp, it will not be a wasted trip. |
Great plan. I am sure you understand the limitations of noisy environments. But you are doing exactly the right thing and should move you logically towards your goal.
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@ezstreams Why go through all this "rigmarole" on a forum like this? This is the age of high tech with a vast global market and information (new and used) at your disposal via the internet that you can utilize to do your own research. In addition to searching the internet, search your local audio shops for auditions. Attending audio shows is a good thing as well. I was in your same shoes about four years ago when I too was in the market for an integrated amp. It's like me asking others which speakers would be the best choice for me. It's a waist of time. Go do the research yourself. You're the one that has to live with your decision. Search to see which integrated amps are out there within your price range (new and used). Go audition and then make a decision. I ended up with a Hegel H590 integrated amp which is my end-game amp. Happy listening. |
Given your speakers and that you’re looking for better bass control I’d be cautious choosing a pure tube integrated and is why I recommended Unison Unico and Pathos hybrid integrateds in your prior thread. I believe Unison will be in the Top Shelf rooms 1402 or 1404 but didn’t see Pathos. One of the Fidelity Imports rooms may also have Unison amps but couldn’t find any specifics so maybe give them a call if interested. Happy hunting! |
Thanks guys! @audphile1, @lalitk @zlone I agree, AXPONA won’t be the best critical listening venue, but it will be a fun check on my bucket list and will provide an opportunity to listen contrast and compare equipment and talk with vendors. |
Did you had a chance to visit @gestalt in Nashville. I recommend checking out his room at AXPONA. |
Good plan, never visited an audio show, but an excellent idea. You can put together a very nice system for $8k. I’ve built 6 systems for 6 different rooms in two homes over the last four years ranging from $1k to $15k. Some new gear, some used stuff. They all sound “good”. In each room for their intended purposes, e,g., main room, bedroom, office, home gym, etc. #1 rig @$15k actually sounds pretty amazing. You’re in a good spot, enjoy the journey. |
Go to many audio shows that you can. Tampa has 1 in a couple of weeks. I used to go to CES/the show/rmaf and others every year and now just the Tampa show. Most equipment you will be seeing will be way over your $8000 budget. Your goal is to see if you can hear a difference in setups, doesn’t matter if they are $10k systems or $200k systems. If you can’t hear any difference then I would spend a dime on an integrated and I would look at the Kef LS60 or Kef LS50 wireless 2 setups. These are active systems where all you need is an Ethernet cable and power. You just need a streaming service or Roon and you are done. If you can’t hear any hear a difference, then I’d still look at the Kef speakers above but I’d also start evaluating as any integrated amps you can. When you go to an audio show and you find something you like, ask for a personal audition which they will give you after the show closes for the day or before it opens the next day. If done that many times and it’s only you in the room. Go to Atlanta and check out a few audio places there. |
Do you still have Joseph Audio Perspective speakers? Read the stereophile review where the reviewer makes a few comments that can help you as a general direction for selecting the new integrated. To him the speakers worked best with Pass XA60.5 amps and were unforgiving when it came to less than perfect recordings. |
@lalitk @singere thank you for the hifi shop recommendations. Looking at the Product lines listed on their websites, it appears they carry extremely high end $$$$ manufacturers. @roadcykler you may well be right; I’m praying you’re not (my wife is probably praying you are). Either way I win as going to a high end audio show is on my life bucket list (I suspect the Agon community can appreciate that). |
From someone in your age group (a couple of years older) and dealing with tinnitus and hearing loss (old age sucks!), I've found a Luxman class-A integrated to be my "end game" component. At your budget, you can probably get any of their gear, at least used if not new, and you'll have the capability to use tone controls to deal with the deficiencies of your hearing and/or source material. |
Unless you’re completely def you should be able to hear differences between amplifiers but visiting the show will confirm or disprove this. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650180311-pass-labs-int-250/ |
You have a great plan. I recently upgraded over a 2 year period planning for my retirement.
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I’m not sure you mentioned it, but what speakers do you have and what kinds of music do you listen to and at what volumes do you generally listen? If Hegel, Luxman or PS Audio are there be sure to check them out. My 68 year old ears have both Hegel H390, which is quiet as a mouse, with a very slight amount of warmth and can pretty much power any speaker and the PS Audio, BHK preamp and BHK 300 mono blocks that have a great deal of punch, but without any ear fatigue. All the best. |
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AXPONA - great choice. For Sonics that you like, take notes of audio chain components- source, electronics, speakers so you can sift through them later to narrow down your preferences/choices. Maybe you’ll get lucky and find out your ideal electronics. Found a sonically subjectively ideal choice at an audio show -Gryphon Commander+APEX, but is way out of my budget so still searching. Will try to demo Westminster REI. Maybe bring some CDs to demo. AXPONA is very large so pace yourself to make sure you have enough time to evaluate gear 2022 was last time I visited audio shows, purchased my speakers from AXPONA 2022 demo. Getting itch, plan to go to AXPONA 2025. Hoping to demo Songer S1x field coil driver |
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@mdalton thanks for the Atelier 13 Nashville hifi shop suggestion. I see the have an Audio Hungary Qualiton X200 on sale for $4,390, well within my price range. Anyone have any experience with AH amps? @audphile1 thanks for the heads up on the PL INT250 listing. I’m going to listen before I buy even if its with other equipment in different environments to at least get a sense (pun intended) of 1. My hearing capabilities and 2. As you, @kennyc, @daniel25 and others have said; try to distill what I hear from those experiences down to 1 or 2 amps to try out in my system at home @jsalerno277 I plan to keep my phono stage and DAC/streamer so I’m hunting for a traditional integrated amp. @curiousjim I have the 83.6 dB sensitive non-graphene Joseph Audio Perspective speakers. I mainly listen to jazz trios and quartets, but my music tastes and listening cover most genres except symphonic or large orchestra/bands which can overwhelm my speakers.
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“I have the 83.6 dB sensitive non-graphene Joseph Audio Perspective speakers”@ezstreams JA Perspective’s loves watts. Almost every demo I’ve attended at audio shows (last 7 years), his speakers were paired with Jeff Rowland’s amps or Integrated. And they sound phenomenal together. There is a Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 Integrated on sale here and it’s within your budget. If you call Jeff Joseph, he would very likely recommend Continuum S2 as well. |
@daniel25 I don’t see your post that @ghdprentice referred to. Did the site moderators delete it for some reason? @mdalton what is the AH you are referring to? Sorry gentlemen, maybe I not fully functional yet, having just poured my 1st cup of the coffee this morning😳 |
At 68, do you want a heavy product or smaller, lighter but with good SQ you are looking for? I downsized and went with a V/A CA-1 and it suffices, more than I could get unless I spend double if not more. Might be different but for transparency and still sounding musical, it's good. Used, there are alot of options, and at over 60, I don't want a heavy, bulky amp nor do I need one. Set some constraints to see if you can just focus on the important specifics. So much out there today and people sell great products used not because of insufficient performance but because they can, just to experience other products.
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@coltrane1 I hear you. But, that’s part of the fun, reading, talking to experts who may have similar experiences willing to share thoughts and advice, seeking and listening to equipment. That’s part of what makes this a community, right?! BTW, I worked with rocket scientists the first 18 years of my career and being detailed, compulsiveand overthinking everything is normal and essential in that line of work 😀 |
I'm also OLD. I've been in heavy civil work for 45+ years....extremely loud job sites with no hearing protection, ever. I've ridden, and continue to ride, race and performance motorcycles since I was a kid. I have some hearing loss, as you'd expect. however, I find Klipsch LaScala's driven by a Luxman MQ300B to be great at all volumes, and, Klipsch/Ojas driven by a Mac MA12000 to be similarly awesome at all levels. Sure, they both project power when given the beans, but they are remarkably adept at finesse during low volume listening. |
I am also OLD, 69. But not that old. I still rock out. Yes I have tinnitus. Yes I can hear the differences in equipment. Used is always the best way to get a better system for the money. I got a big system that adds up to about $60K retail for maybe half that. At $8,000 to spend I could build a pretty good system. The big thing is to match your speakers and power amp requirements. If you like high sensitivity speakers like 89dB you can get a reasonable low powered tube amp that sounds great. Primaluna is a great product for that and the tube sound is very good. In my big system I have 450 WPC for power hungry speakers that will rip the roof off the house. I just love this hobby. |
I recommend PrimaLuna or Pass Labs. You can get a Pass INT 25 for less than $8K and be happy for the rest of your life (provided you don’t need to pre-amp or use a sub). Or, you can get PrimaLuna integrated and have as much fun with tubes as you want. I have both in my home; a PrimaLuna EVO 400 preamp with Pass XA 60.8’s in the main system, and a little PL EVO 100 integrated in my second system. The build quality of these components is the best I’ve seen, and I’ve seen a LOT over the past 40 years. And, most importantly, they pass the all-day listening test with flying colors. Check ‘em out! You’ll be glad you did. |
My thinking is that perhaps you should consider reposting your impresssions on what you're looking for AFTER AXPONA. Also, for clarification:
Much to think about. I feel that Axpona provides a wealth of exposure, perhaps overwhelming at times, on the best on what's out there. But seriously, the prices are also overwhelming for many.. Yet, the experience provides a better perspective when going into the used market for your shopping, even for the budget shopper. Good luck and perhaps we'll bump into each other unknowingly!! |
@jlopes89 thank you for very thought provoking post! If Agon’s metrics are accurate, I’m honored that you chose this topic for your 1st post during 7+ years of membership! To answer your questions, yes my $8K budget is for a plain (no DAC phono pre which I have both). Also, yes I would consider separates, but I suspect I’ll get more musicality (at least what I’m looking for) for the buck with an integrated. But I have an open mind. I’m happy to share my thoughts after attending AXPONA if folks are interested in them. As I said in my original post in December and again in this one, I’m seeing out and really do appreciate the decades of expertise and variety of thoughts and recommendations from this community. |
Always glad to help another retiree out who has a budget. I do not post because everyone feels they have it "right" and proud of what they have, everyone feels they have made the right choices and make recommendations that are well-intentioned based on their experiences, etc. When you see fairly popular reviewers on youtube getting nasty with their peers, one wonders if it's worthwhile offering their views but I'm sure somewhere in there, there's a profit motive. So............................ here are a couple of more things to consider: 1. Everyone's has an opinion of how their amp sounds - warm, clean, etc. However, what is the function of a preamp and/or power amp? Perhaps you'll agree with me that the answer is to accurate reproduce the source? Assuming your source is an accurate reproduction of original live material for example, shouldn't the best amp and pre-amp's functions be to provide "uncoloured" gain or attenuation. In the chain of devices, there's already too much potential for coloration (so-called mastered source material, component/renderer, DAC, pre-amp, power amp, and most important speakers) that makes one wonder which piece of equipment is actually the cause for that pleasing or awful music you're hearing. My belief is that if what I am hearing should sound like the live performance of the performer(s), If that, then the combination of equipment I am using is optimal. Yet how many of us have the luxury of that experience to make those comparisons. Without that luxury, one has to hope that the "source" is accurate (after going through all the digitization/adjustments/etc.) and the components that follow do what they are supposed to do. 2. My recommendation: I've always purchased what I am fairly certain will not result in an astronomical loss should I become disappointed and have to sell it off. Given your budget, great deals in the used market may cushion some of that when you want to unload it as you may not have to bear the brunt of new equipment depreciation. Alternatively, the shop or mfg you are dealing with has a good return policy. Perhaps more thoughts later. This is my 2nd post now :).
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I highly recommend the McIntosh MA8950 integrated amp. It is beautiful to look at with the iconic blue meters, it’s has fantastic sound, 5 band equalizer so you can adjust for your room or bad recordings, it has the DA2 dac module in the back- if they come out with better dac technology some day you can replace just the module and keep it up to date. 200 solid Watts of power with 3.1DB headroom should be more than enough for most speakers and rooms. I went from separates (C52 and MC452) to this all in one excellent integrated. I have a pair of Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 2 speakers connected and the sound is fantastic. I too have tinitus at 57 yrs old. This integrated is $9000, but some dealers will take some money off the top or you could go with used. (try Audio Classics) it weighs 75lbs. |