I have a experience of experiencing quite a lot of equipment in use across quite a few different systems, but must admit today, commercial orientated systems where a system is built to create sales are not listened to much, very infrequently will be a fair explanation since Covid Times and infrequently will be a fair explanation for a good period of time prior to Covid.
I can't Speak for all, but have even received reports from individuals I trust in heavily in relation to Audio Equipment, who on return from Event such as the High End Munich, have felt the Demo's encountered overall were uninspiring.
There is not a generic formula for Math, that is able to be used that will win over all with the End Sound Produced. Is this not another fact worth pointing out.
Foot Work, Experiencing and assessing impression made of an End Sound Produced, is my methodology. It has served me very very well, not much that has been bought has been replaced or resold. Those who have tried to convince me of the Math, are usually informed to leave that for the Mathematicians or Wannabe Mathematicians. During my time and limited encounters, my real trust count in individuals with a Mathematical prowess, that has slowly developed into trust over many years of encounters, is limited to reliance on a number of trusted individuals that amounts to less than the digits on one hand.
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@pindac WTF are you talking about? It seems you just babble about everything that you have heard, at places other than your own. 98% of the time I don't bother reading your posts anymore. Is it just me? I think not.
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Pindac, Not all high end component designers are EEs, although ideally one would like to think so. Many/most are just intelligent guys with no degree related to EE who use math, and yes also their own personal biases, to design equipment. Which is why there is no agreement on what is "best". There is no general consensus even on something as fundamental as whether a phono stage should be balanced or single-ended, tube or solid state, transformer coupled or direct coupled, and on and on. BUT one can only hope that a given commercial design makes sense mathematically, else for example the RIAA correction is apt to be very inaccurate. So, go ahead and follow your ears and your heart in choosing your own gear, but verify that the theory is sound. What I am saying is that there are many many ways to get the design right, but they all depend upon the same mathematical formulae for calculating parts value, in order to get a good result.
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“I thought the Monbrisson phono stage did not have sufficient gain for a LOMC cartridge”
@lewm
I didn’t perceive anything lacking with the soundstage when I played Hana Umami Red through Monbrison onboard phono. Others may have used a SUT as personal preference. I believe the latest revision of Monbrison don’t have MC phono option.
In any case, I am very close to finalizing a tube MM phono. The plinth is finally here (phew).
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If my posts at anytime are addressed @rsf507 it would not be any care of mine if it was read by yourself or any other. It is known within this forum, I add Posts for the ’looker in’ who does not post or posts very infrequently, as well as for a future visitors looking to see if a broad range of notions and proposals are able to be discovered.
I have made no secret in the past, I periodically receive PM’s from individuals who are not regular posters, or who are regular posters. Where inquiries are made wanting to receive further information about the content they have seen. This is an encouragement and one that keeps myself active.
Additionally, I also receive the occasional PM that thanks me for a content added to a Thread, another unexpected encouragement and one that keeps myself active in this forum.
What is contradictory is you state you don’t read my Posts, but do make the time for reading 2% ? Is it not better to just SKIP the Post ?
With 2% of content being meticulously studied, you are fluent and able to offer up a reasonable interpretation about the content. Is this 2% across all Subjects I offer a supporting commentary on, or limited to the Analogue Subject only ?
I am glad you are absorbing the supplied info, about what I class as the most valuable asset to my Audio Experience. Which is my making it known I do not shut myself away in a Room as a lone listener to recorded music with the sole audio experience being from using the homes dedicated audio system. With the end result being I am Kidding myself I have created a great playback system. That stupidity from being very Insular in relation to recorded music replays on audio equipment was ended a long long time in the past.
For many many years the Bulk of my experiences are from a approach where Social Activity is the fundamental. Where experiencing Audio Systems and different devices as demo’s in such systems are the basic theme to create a reason for a Meeting. The real value is friends getting together, sharing Banter, sharing Lunch and enjoying New Music Tracks and few Old Faithful Tracks to get an ear in to the end sound on offer.
I whole heartedly encourage others to see if they can find a way to have very similar experiences on a regular basis, there is potential to learn vast amounts, through the broad range of individuals who can start to show up.
I make no secret on this forum that the bulk of my main audio system is packed away for storage, as there is a Home Overhaul being planned to occur.
I make no secret on this forum, that much of my musical experiences had in my own home are with my Wife and supplied by using her Amazon Alexa, which in my own opinion are as enjoyable as a musical encounter as any had anywhere at any time, just not as refined as a dedicated audio system can create as a end sound. The Grandchildren totally enjoy the interaction as well, one song being danced to is Alice Cooper the next from Horrid Henry 
If an individual can’t accept another’s chosen methodology for sharing on audio related experiences, that is their beef not mine. Life is way way too short.
Over a decade, a growing number of Members of a Local Audio Club, have evolved to host events throughout a year, taking place in the homes of Members, or where Members have Pooled Equipment to be taken to and used at Public attended Audio Enthusiast Events. 12 Members > 12 Systems of which Three systems are the regularly used ones, but over 18 Months - 2 years all systems will have been used for a Meeting. I can usually attends 4-6 meetings a year.
What’s not to like, what is needed to be criticised ?
@lewm stated " Not all high end component designers are EEs, although ideally one would like to think so. Many/most are just intelligent guys with no degree related to EE who use math, and yes also their own personal biases, to design equipment. "
I am very very familiar with this outlook and have friendships with a Group of individuals from both categories of EE Skills, as well being very familiar with the need to have accuracy in mechanical designs for use in audio, where I also have friendships with very adept producers of audio related equipment who use Lathes for machining, even producing Micro Parts, as well as using CNC’s.
Hence my statement, "During my time and limited encounters, my real trust count in individuals with a Mathematical prowess, that has slowly developed into trust over many years of encounters, is limited to reliance on a number of trusted individuals that amounts to less than the digits on one hand ".
Do I have any regrets to date, more of a want I would say, I would have liked to have been able to have had the available time to attend more get togethers, and had been able to visit all who have been met, who have impressed me with their discussed Skill Sets. To experience their work applied to their systems, is usually a indelible experience and one that inspires way beyond that, which is on offer from a commonly used methods to experience audio related equipment.
A very adept EE put on a event recently that I attended where a 3 Watt output Amp’ Prototype was being Demo'd ( not carried out on my own system ). This experience of this Amp' has blown me completely of track and has myself rethinking a lot about an End Sound that is able to be produced. The expectation that a 300b follow Up Amp was going to show the shortcomings of a 3 Watt Amp did not become realised. There are many questions now needing to be asked and answered to get the full grip on what was experienced and the impression that was made.
Within this Thread I have only shared with the OP my experiences had, my assessments of those experiences had and in relation to being investigative. I have shared, it is of value to have a open mind, with an intent to create a list that contains a broad range of devices to be experienced. Which suggests the investigation may become one that is a long haul with a few devices Superseded as the collateral damages, as I have experienced, or a few devices discovered to be used in conjunction, as I have also experienced and maintain to this date.
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@lalitk if u want the best SQ for your setup it is. if close enough is fine and u like jfets, opamps and switches for versatility youre good. some really good phono amps have SUT on board along with impedance matching.
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@cey
Appreciate your advise. I keeping an open mind about this and will continue to explore my options in upcoming months. For starters, I am leaning towards a custom SUT’s plus MM tube phono setup.
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cant beat it, @lalitk
Appreciate your advise. I keeping an open mind about this and will continue to explore my options in upcoming months. For starters, I am leaning towards a custom SUT’s plus MM tube phono setup.
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Dear @lalitk : " I would like to take things to the next level. Which brings me to mating low output cart with a SUT..."
Well it’s clear that for you it’s the next step however for MUSIC is several back steps.
I can see too that through the whole tread all gentlemans ( MUSIC lovers? ) posted about system hardware and no one " touched " MUSIC that for me is the main target in any room/system in home reproduction.
In a live event almost does not exist anithing but air between MUSIC ( sources ) and we and that’s the whole and biggest diference against LP reproduced MUSIC.
It’s from there where comes that fast transient response and from here is developed the rythm and power dynamics than only live MUSIC achieves.
Recording and playback proccess makes a huge MUSIC degradation through all those " thousands " of steps/interruptions where the MUSIC signal must pass through and at each step is developed and accumulation of MUSIC severe degradation, distortions of everykind and higher noise levels.
So as lower the signal steps as better MUSIC quality levels and now you are thinking to add additional steps against MUSIC. Here what one of your OP electronics alternatives says about its main unit design ( Tron. ):
and for very good reasons due that we need to try to preserve that sensible cartridge signal integrity but in this hardware’s party with the Sut you are adding a longer cartridge signal path than in your today SS Accuphase because you are separating preamp from phono and then Sut and those mean input/output additional metal blend connectors, several solder joints, transformers, not 2cms. of wire but over 1 m. along all the cartridge signal interactions down there.
All those can’t in anyway be an improvement/enhance or better quality sound reproduction but the other way around: only deep degradations with higher developed distortions at any single added step. Again:
VERY SHORT SIGNAL PATH
always is the way to go, less is more and not the " dance " of this party.
You want to " take things to the next level " then you can change the Accuphase for a better SS phonolinepreamp as Gryphon, Boulder, CH or even Dartzeel. In all these units you are not adding nothing but better quality designs that really can improve the MUSIC quality sound. Other alternative is to go not for the Etsuro but for the Lyra Etna Lambda SL.
Those are " next levels " for your system. Obviously that you can follow with the thread’s party.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Lalitk, My point was that your good opinion of the Monbrisson led me to look for some reviews. One was by Art Dudley published in Stereophile. Dudley was an avowed admirer of Ken Shindo, and so was predisposed to love his works. And indeed he did wax poetic about the Monbrisson, but the impression I got is that the built in phono stage only supplies MM levels of phono gain, i.e., ca 40db. He mentioned that the difference in cost between the Monbrisson and a more costly Shindo design was likely that the latter included built in SUTs that service the MC phono inputs on that other unit, whereas the Monbrisson lacked MC capability. So, based only on that information (sadly, the S’phile review did not include a tech description of the Monbrisson or any measurements), I would have guessed that the unit would require an outboard SUT in order to work well with the Hana Umami Red or any other LOMC cartridge. OTOH, it’s possible that one could have ordered up an upgrade to the Monbrisson that would include a built in SUT and MC inputs.
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@rauliruegas
I appreciate the recommendation for Integrated but I am not looking to upgrade my Integrated. Accuphase Integrated is not going anywhere! On my last shootout with T+A and Dartzeel, I preferred the synergy between the Accuphase and Tannoy’s.
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To suggest the use of a Off Board SUT / Head Amp' is a detriment to a produced end sound, as a result of the usage extending the routing for a Signal Path, along with being dependent on adding other parts to enable the function, does require a little extra analysis to fully understand the full extent of where the real world concerns can be found.
In the case of a SUT, for the entirety of a design to be enabled to function, will incorporate a Transformer. The Transformer will introduce a increased Length of a Wire in the Signal Path, as well as the likelihood Different Wire Types are used in required Umbilical Cables and Different Metals for Connectors are being used on Cables and at the Input / Output on the device.
In the case of the Head Amp' for the entirety of a design to enable function, will incorporate an increased number of components in the Signal Path, as well as the likelihood Different Wires Types are used in required Umbilical Cables and Different Connectors metals for Connectors are being used on Cables and at the Input / Output on the device.
I propose one other consideration not too often seen being put on the table for discussion, is the end users unique choice for the Topology of the added devices, such as the Placement in relation to the Tonearm > Phon' and the Lengths of Umbilical Cables adopted ? Certainly worthwhile learning more and optimising.
Additionally there are other materials selected for use in the Signal Path, which are to be found used at critical interfaces along the Signal Path, i.e, Cart' Lead Out Pin's being Brass, Copper or another metal - Tag Wire Type? - Tag Wire Connectors being Brass, Copper or another metal - Connectors at the Tonearm Wire Interface being Brass, Copper or another metal - Tonearm Wire Type? - Connectors used within a Tonearm at another Interface being Brass, Copper or another metal - Connectors on Tonearm Phono Cable at either end being Brass, Copper or another metal.
Alternatively a selected Wire used as a continuous Wire, which is run from Cart' Lead Out Pins to Phono Connectors at the wires opposite end, which leaves the question about the Wire Connectors at either end being Brass, Copper or another metal.
Not creating a route for the Signal Path that is to its absolute benefit, is one that through experiences had and assessments made, one which is compromised and will diminish the end sound in achieving its full potential. Making changes to this Signal Path will create a perception that a less diminished end sound is being structured.
On certain Phons', mainly with a MC Input, a version of either of the above descriptions are most likely to be found incorporated within the Phon' as a design for the Phon's Circuit and will be given a specific Topology.
When using Outboard/Standalone Devices for the purpose of Amplifying a Signal, strongly suggests the fundamental affect on what can be classed as being able to diminish the end sound ,is the Input / Output Connectors and the Output Cable. y.
When considering what is very commonly encountered as the Signal Path between a Cart's produced electrical signal to the first stage of Signal Amplification.
The notion that a few additional connectors and a Cable Length used on an Off Board Amplification Device is a real cause for concern does seem to be a little OTT.
Removal of the Upstream Logs seems to be much better a place to focus on to improve the flow, rather than a few branches further down the stream.
It is each to their own, in relation to how they address the Signal Path.
As for myself, In relation to the Signal Path. I go to Pure Copper frequently, Pure Silver infrequently, avoid Brass unless no choice but to have it. Also reducing connections has been the choice in relation to Cart' > Phon' for quite few years.
In relation to the 333 Integrated, the design is seemingly showing the fundamental is to have a very short Signal Path, the design selected being the anti-thesis of a Separates System.
Is the introduction to this Amp' coming from the notion, all Systems made up from Separate Devices and connected with Umbilical Cables are no longer necessary ?
Or is the notion behind introducing the 333, that to use a SUT / Head Amp can be bettered by adopting this type of Amp' Design?
As for my interpretation of the 333 in relation to it being a concept with a Scandinavian Philosophy, as well as being a very new model. I have assessed how the design fits into a modern ethic about production and the environmental impact.
1, Does it as a design depend on less Electrical Power Consumption than a comparative Separates System ?
2, Does it require a lot less real estate ? i.e, Less than the usual Packaging for Shipping when considering alternatives ? Less Support/Rack Equipment is needed when considering alternatives ?
3, Does it as design fit in more comfortably with a modern ethic on reducing the impact on the environment resulting from methodologies typically used for commercial ventures production ?
With the design coming from Scandinavia and knowing the Countries ethics on Conservation / Preservation, 2, looks like a ticked box. 1 and 3 are by myself requiring further investigation to be proven.
4, Does it as a design produce a must have end sound ? There will be advocates who wear this products sonic attributes on their sleeves.
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interesting, @br3098 . users of both often state this in their preference for SUT. what headamp does such for hana ML?
"a really good head amp had an airiness and delicacy that SUTs can't match. You need to test."
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Does anyone have a direct experience with Thöress ‘Phono Enhancer’. I was reading late last night about it and kinda digging its design and features. A purely active phono circuit – no step-up transformers – that uses three NOS (new-old-stock) tubes – one PCC88 and two 6J5GT.
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@lalitk I'm running the Thoress, reason I purchased was the unique design and features. Don't have a great deal of experience with phono stages, but Thoress plays at a different level than my ModWright SWP9.0SE and prior custom build tube stage with step up trans.
I'm at point where I exclusively use only point to point wiring, short signal paths in all components, Thoress fits my preferences. I also believe performance could be raised further still with cap and resistor mods I'm contemplating. Thoress pretty much unknown in US, overlooked by many. In researching my purchase the Thoress competes against some much more expensive phono stages.
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I am making no value judgement, but be aware that Thoress uses a JFET in addition to tubes in order to develop sufficient gain with LOMC cartridges. Not that there’s anything wrong with that; the Steelhead does it too. What’s the big deal about the 6J5? It’s equal to one half (one section) of a 6SN7, which is a great medium mu tube and easier to find. I’d advise against choosing gear based on content of seemingly exotic parts.
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@lalitk
You have inspired me to finally pull the trigger on a new SUT for my Koetsu - have been Hamlet-ing the decision for almost a year and a half now. So thank you. I went with the Swissonor, will report back.
Re SUT vs. active stage, I had a great discussion (email) with Andrew Rothwell before I bought one of his units several years ago. Here’s a portion of his thoughts:
“Hi Steve. Yes, noise is indeed a potential problem with headamps - but noise is a potential problem with any audio electronics. Actually, there are various types of noise and various ways it can infest an audio signal. The type of noise most likely to plague a headamp is Johnson noise, aka thermal noise, which is a hissing sound. With a step-up transformer you're unlikely to have any hiss problems, but you're more likely to have hum problems. Anyway, without getting too deep into the topic of noise, let me assure you the Headspace has very low noise - way below vinyl surface noise. I leave the choice between headamp and SUT to the customer, but with your system being valve-based the transformer option seems more fitting - no transistors :-). Btw, no the battery doesn't address the issue of Johnson noise at all. It addresses the issue of mains-borne noise and potential ground loops. Regards. Andrew”
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@sns Good to hear from you and thank you for your feedback. Like I said, I am digging the features and it’s been compared favorably with big dogs. One of my favorites is Air Tight ATE-3011…wish I can afford it. Let’s see where I land…it’s all very exciting, the process and the pursuit.
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@mdalton I have tried 4 SUT's with my diamond Koetsu: lower cost Sowter (OK), Koetsu (a bit dull), Audio Note (expensive), and Lundahl 1931 AG (best transformer overall).
My Mayajima hums when feeding the phono stage directly, so I use the 1931's for that - but otherwise I have a slight preference for direct amplification. The 1933AG might be better than the 1931AG here.
Best sound of all is my big Grado, which needs no help.
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Sorry, missed the line about the Swissonor.
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@terry9
Interesting. The price of 2 1931s go from $500 to $2000 when you go from copper to silver. Do you have any experience of just listening to that difference?
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Dear @lalitk : Good news from you and for you to know that your Accuphase fulfill better your room/system reproduction targets than the Dartzeel.
Now, I linked those integrated units to compare apples with apples and Accuphase is tour " apple ", good.
Now, when I posted degradation word this means too something we can’t forget and is that added units/items means losting MUSIC information that we can’t recovery and no audio unit can do it. Added tubes in your system chain means ( normally ) higher noise levels vs SS units.
Btw, you and other gentleman posted the word " magic/magical " in reference to quality units performance and those words are audiophile adjectives only. MUSIC is not magic but beauty as sculpture or paints by Rembrandt and the like.
Enjoy your system and good luck.
R.
" so I use the 1931's for that - but otherwise I have a slight preference for direct amplification. "
Coming that statement from @terry9 means a lot for any one.
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"MUSIC is not magic"
@rauliruegas
I did not say Music is Magic. My exact words, "Mid-range is simply magical" which IMHO translates to, something beautiful or delightful in such a way that it draws or transports you into state of bliss.
Enjoy the Music and IGNORE the adjectives :-)
@mdalton
Congratulations! I am looking forward to hearing your impressions on Swissoner SUT. And appreciate you for sharing the insight on noise from one of the brilliant minds in the industry.
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@lalitk
Happy to share whatever modicum of knowledge I have. Regarding adjectives, don’t you think life would be dull without them?
“My wife is so beautiful.”
“This scotch has just the right amount of peatiness and smoke.”
“That sunset has a gorgeous combination of orange, purple and pink.”
”Life is good.”
lol! Will definitely report back on the new Swissonor!
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@lalitk : It's weird but no one ask so I would like to ask you:
what do you don't like in your AD-50.What's wrong down there about its quality level reproduction performance?
Thank's.
R.
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@rauliruegas
The phono board option in Accuphase Integrated is pretty decent. But given my investment in Carts (north of $10K), I thought it would be worth exploring improvements over the phono board. I will be comparing the external phono’s with AD50 before committing to a purchase.
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@cey what headamp does such for hana ML?
I can't say, I haven't owned a Hana cartridge since they were first introduced. I may have tried a Hana LV cartridge with a headamp but I don't specifically remember.
But in general, SUTs add some "flavor" to the mix. I think @pindac nailed it when he described what SUTs add as "richness of tone." Not that this is unpleasant; quite the opposite. I love that quality when a good MC cartridge is perfectly mated to an SUT and the rest of the downstream components. Think one of the really special Ortofon SPUs paired with an ST-80SE, A123 or one of the great FR units. Vibrant, high butterfat cream. A really good headamp can't match that, IMO. But it can shine in terms of speed and truthful fidelity.
Did I answer your question?
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I did not read the whole thread but it points out that the options are pretty much endless. Make your life simple... Contact Dave Slagle at Emia.Tell him what you have and what you want to do and he can wind you an SUT that is perfect for your situation, copper or silver but in my limited experience you want silver. I believe he will let you audition a pair before you buy.
https://myemia.com/
Disclaimer:: not affiliated other than a happy customer
Buy the phono stage too if you can afford it... phenomenal. End game stuff
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as an owner of an Emia phono and silver SUT, I recommend saving yourself a lot grief. Just go ahead and get the silver SUT. Contact Dave Slagle, tell him what you have and what you want, and he will custom wind you the ideal solution. You will have an end game solution you will not regret
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@br3098 the point of a good SUT that pairs up well with your MC id it brings out the best of your cartridge.
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A short signal path is, of course, a desirable thing. But let us not lose sight of the alternative here: a complex signal path full of components in a head amp or in the MC amplification stage of the pre-amp. Compared to that, an extra pair of interconnects and a pair of transformers are relatively simple and straightforward.
My phono stage isn't as grand as many, but there is no question in my mind that using its MM input with an SUT is better than using its MC input.
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I don’t think you can fairly make a case for SUT over high gain phono on the basis of simplicity. A high gain stage may consist of one gain device at the input of what otherwise is an MM stage. No extra ICs, no outboard chassis, much shorter connections.
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I recently bought a dedicated tube phono preamp, the Pro-ject Tube Box DS2, for my Koetsus. It gets run through a line stage in my Beard P505. It’s just what I needed.
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@lalitk
If it hasn't already been pointed out: the fact that you enjoy Tannoy Canterbury as your main speakers, and have stuck with them for years (like me) - I think makes it more likely you'll prefer the SUT + MM approach.
The cartridges you cite (Umami, Etsuro, Fuuga) are electrically a good match for SUT. There are so many nice premium SUT options and new contenders today, many of which I haven't tried, e.g. Consolidated Audio, EMIA, Sculpture A. Over time I've settled on using my EAR MC-3 and MC-4 the most. If the newer options go beyond that, it's quite a bonus.
Used a SUT with tube MM stages for years because it felt like the "natural fit", and indeed it's hard to even find a bad match there. VAC, Herron, Audio Research, Hagerman - all wonderful results with the EAR SUT's, which I generally preferred to the built-in MC options, sometimes by a lot. Of them all, the Hagerman Trumpet Reference actually made it a close call in some scenarios - and even won out in cases where I needed a little more air & zip on top to balance things out (depends on the system). And the VAC itself uses Lundahl LL1931 SUT for its built-in MC stage - but Lundahls are my least favorite SUT!
Now that I've also got a Meridian 502 w/ MM stage I'm playing with in a 2nd system, I can confirm solid state MM's work great with SUT too! In fact that's a quirky little "sounds better than it should" MM stage. Its balanced line-stage is reasonably transparent, but I prefer a tube line stage over it for many of the same reasons I prefer a SUT.
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"Richness of Tone" is a term I use, that I have experienced being perceived, depending on device used, rhat has variance in how the presence is substantiated.
I like to detect a presence, but it will need to be subtle to get my vote.
Another may find that a much more weighty and what ai class as ovetbearing is to be detected to get their vote.
Another may class any detection of a Richness of Tone from a add on device, as being iadding a unnecessary noise. Where they.
would prefer to add a Richness of Tone through considering other options.
What really matters, where an End Sound is being sought by an individual, that is unique to the individuals preferences, is that the different perceptions that are able to be created, are experienced and that the individual makes their choice for what is most attractive and wanting to be maintained.
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Dear @lewm : " I don’t think you can fairly make a case for SUT over high gain phono on the basis of simplicity. A high gain stage may consist of one gain device at the input of what otherwise is an MM stage. No extra ICs, no outboard chassis, much shorter connections. "
I agree with you and the problem is that exist to many tube owners and ( with all respect ) a high technical ignorance levels ( manufacturers know that but they are doing the bussiness. Taking advantage of the $$$$$ market. ) along that several of us in reality can't appreciate the real MUSIC and almost all go for what they like no matter what even that if what they are listen it is wrong against the active high gain stage. These problems makes that gentlemans as mulveling and all the ones in this thread are happy with SUTs. Even they don't try to help the OP and they do not like to analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium.
After my post where I mentioned the facts about what the OP want to do no one of these SUT advocates gentlemans makes any single comment: dead silence and I can infere from that that they has to arguments against all those facts other that our famous: " I like it " that is a end of a dialogue. Really pity but such is audio life.
@lalitk Grado Epoch.
R.
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@rauliruegas
? Didn’t realize we were in a competition, lol! But if so, I’m sticking with Andrew Rothwell’s view - choose whichever you like best. They each have their advantages (and disadvantages).
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@lalitk : " given my investment in Carts (north of $10K), "
Then do it a favor and don't " walk " with back steps. Don't lost MUSIC information and don't add more signal degradations that your beloved cartridges pick-up during its very hard/tremendous effort on LP playback.
R.
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@mulveling
Appreciate your feedback based on your extensive experience. I am also leaning towards Tube MM phono + SUT. With a SS system, if one place I can possibly insert a tube component; this would be IT. I am trying to line up few auditions and let’s see which pairing of phono + SUT I end up preferring.
@herman ..EMIA is on my list :-)
Those advocating simplicity or short signal path, I have already experienced that in my previous analog setup. I may end up adopting a phono that does it all in a single chassis but not until I tryout a MM phono + SUT pairing in my system.
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@lalitk
I concur with comments made that the most direct path, with least material and equipment, can give optimum sound closer to sensation of live music.
One example worked well in my set-up: wiring tonearm cable direct to valve phono board, bypassing RCA plug, socket, and wire, resulted in notably more dynamic sound.
For MC use, there are very satisfied users of Abbas SUT’s, so I just ordered a new valve phono from him with switchable (MM-MC) SUT’s on board ( Abbas Hephaestus RIAA ). It is dual mono design with Mullard Ef37 valves (used in Colossus computer from WW2) and other large Octals. I have one of his EL84 RIAA’s and music sounds highly dynamic, big, and rich, on some LP’s, shockingly real. (I took out of my system a valve preamp in favour of a TVC for more transparency). I placed a photo from Abbas of each unit side by side at bottom of my system page.
So I will have flexibility for low output carts (I want to try Mono Miyajima, which sounds wonderful in a friend’s system) with Abbas Hephaestus RIAA, and will soon work out whether I have the same finding as another writer’s comment :
“Best sound of all is my big Grado, which needs no help”.
Similar to Grado, I use Decca MI’s. These cartridges direct into Abbas EL84 RIAA stage sound closest to live music, to my ears, “with no need of help”.
Good luck with your experiment.
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I have been an SUT fan for 40+ years, Even the EAR pre-amps I've used have SUTs built in. Only my Benz Ruby 3 didn't really like a perfectly matched SUT and would have preferred an head amp instead. My Dynavectors LOVE SUTs and I now have (purchased at a discount) Zesto Allesso SUT, 40 settings (4 gains/10 impedances).
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@psf4972 Your Statement " One example worked well in my set-up: wiring tonearm cable direct to valve phono board, bypassing RCA plug, socket, and wire, resulted in notably more dynamic sound"
is one I fully get the attraction to, it is a idea discussed with Tonearm Designer / Builder who are friends. Recent experiences had and the impression made strongly suggested this type of Signal Path Interface was worthy of consideration.
I have also been following Covid successful in encouraging a Catt' Technician to bypass the Cart's Lead Out Pins and offer a Continuous Wand Wire from the Cart's Coils or a alternate interface for the Wand Wire Cart' Coils, if convenience of use wins over.
Is it excessive as a method, this depends if one wants Gold Plated Brass Pins as the Signal Path Interface from Cart' Coils / Wand Wire.
Due to War Zones and Sanctions this design is on hold until the World shows more kindness towards each other.
In relation to AVC or TVC, the ones I have experienced have added a Richness of Tone, but no where near as a impression certain experienced Valve Pre's have been able to present.
My AVC is out on loan with other owned VC's to a EE producing a 3 Watt Output Amp', there use of the AVC has been able to substantially alter my assessments made in the past. The 3 Watt Amp' has created a Head Scratching / Chin Rubbing response, I am rethinking everything I have learnt about an Amp's influence on an End Sound.
@lalitk if the Valve Phonostage is selected, with a Valve Input / Output - MM only Design, you will be adopting Phon' Type that I use, which has been a Bespoke Build and in the end Voiced to my own preference for the End Sound.
Note: With such a design there is so much more available through Tube Rolling, this simplistic method to create option for the Circuit and Signal Path is for myself extremely attractive.
Fortunately, it took a lot less exposure to Valves as it did SUT's to find my keeper Valves.
Note: Such a suggestion to go Valve > SUT in the assessment of some, will no longer suggest your plan is a Step Backwards, more likely be a suggestion that you are not an Audiophile but just another Stupid OP based on voiced choices being considered/made.
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Great discussion above my pay grade since I'll likely keep using MM carts most of my life now that I stream music about 80% of the time, but I wanted to mention that in May, Steve Gutenberg went down the rabbit hole of getting out some of his vintage SUTs and comparing them to his "reference" Parasound phono stage. The results were interesting to say the least, mirroring some of your experiences.
HOW TO get the BEST SOUND from MC CARTRIDGES! - YouTube
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Problem is that the Parasound does not qualify as a “reference”, certainly not as a high gain phono stage. A classic “straw man” situation. My advice is keep an open mind, experiment as much as you can afford, then do what you like. Verbal arguments are worthless in this case.
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...several of us in reality can't appreciate the real MUSIC and almost all go for what they like no matter what...
You know, if you follow that argument to it's conclusion you can see we should all listen to our music through equipment that we do not like. I am familiar enough with live music, especially opera, that I know what I experience at home is going to be somewhat different to the real thing. And if it isn't going to be the same, at least it should be pleasing to me. I'm not going to apologise for taking that stance: I listen for pleasure and I'll maximise that pleasure if I can.
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+1, @lewm @dogberry
Keeping an open mind and experimenting is the key to ‘sound’ you prefer. There isn’t anything more gratifying than that!
You know what they say…All roads lead to Rome!
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