Where's the next weak link in my analog chain?

Why not upgrade to the MoFi Silver or UltraGold cartridges?

Why not upgrade to the MoFi Silver or UltraGold cartridges?

That is 100% on the list, along with the Hana ML and Art9xi as other strong contenders. I was thinking that might be the next low hanging fruit, but I have been considering the cables as a potential bottle neck for some time. 

I have the same table set up (among other tables) looks pretty good, I am a source 1st guy BUT to improve on that table will take some cake, better cart would be a good choice, cables are always a crap shoot and it depends on how much you are willing to spend, better cart might be the best bang for the buck here.

I'd save up and do the table. It is true you will get a bump with a better cartridge. I guess it depends on your personality. I would rather make big moves as opposed to frittering away money doing small incremental moves. Moving up a level will net a better table / tonearm and cartridge. My rule of thumb is always make moves 2x in investment. If you do your research then it's going to be a big sonic gain. 

I’d save up and do the table. It is true you will get a bump with a better cartridge. I guess it depends on your personality. I would rather make big moves as opposed to frittering away money doing small incremental moves. Moving up a level will net a better table / tonearm and cartridge. My rule of thumb is always make moves 2x in investment. If you do your research then it’s going to be a big sonic gain.

This is traditionally how I’ve approached things. Wait for bigger upgrades and shoot for 2x for a meaningful impact. But now the impacts are getting larger, lol.

If I did go up in table I would probably wait until I could go 1200G with an MC cart in the $1500ish range. I’d want to demo other tables before committing (VPI, P8), but I’m very drawn to the seemingly simple ownership experience of the 1200G. I also believe a 1200G2 may be coming down the line with the updated power supply, but I’d imagine that would likely push the price to $4500. Not a deal breaker, but more time to be patient to get there. But could be just a year give/take if I can stay focused. I did just make some updates in the chain that would carry over to a new table as well.

I’d like to get a new streamer/dac at some point too, but I’ve been very focused on the analog end lately. I have decided I'm going to wait until SWAF comes to Dallas so I can have some cash in hand if anything strikes me there as well. Fingers crossed I can see/hear some of this more affordable gear there. 

Great rig! I'd buy some more records, kick back, and enjoy.

I would want a tonearm with removable headshell, to pre-mount a few cartridges, including Mono. Arm height adjustment is important.

Or, if you find yourself with a lot of Jazz, probably a good bit of Mono LPs, two arms, one with removable headshell and easy arm height change.

Luxman PD444 is a terrific TT, track and sliding plates for 2 tonearms

This shows the Luxman PD444 well

I helped my friend put two Micro Seiki 505 arms on his

same design, single arm version PD-441

I have this, totally awesome arm, members here told me about it, then found one for sale for me

Acos Lustre GST-801

Mounted in the back of my JVC PL-2 two arm plinth (I squeezed a small Mission arm on the left for Mono ready to go)

I say go for a nice MC cartridge. It will still be viable when you make your move on a new turntable.

clarify what is included and what is optional, this SP15 Spinner has specs that rival todays technics models, the base accepts a few different arm wands, one is S arm with removable headshell

Technics SP15 System

see current, SP-15 and SP-25 specs in this database

I helped my friend install the B500 Base on the SP15 I gave him years ago, it is a wonderful way to have a compact system with flexibility.

get started with an SP-25 in the correct Base

SP-25 with arm with removable headshell

The cutout fits the B500 Base whenever you find one

same for the 3 speed SP-15, cutout fits B500 Base

Keep powder dry and accumulate more to make the bigger leap others have suggested….

Just my $.02

Art 9Xi and 1200G or G2 would be nice for you.

I would not buy an SP-15 ever. The MN6042 speed control chip has been out of production for decades and is a high failure part. At which time, you are harvesting another 50 year old MN6042 out of a parts unit, and hoping it will last, or scrapping it, as many have done. 

The real issue with this crap shoot is that, should you buy an SP15, it may last indefinitely, and is a worthwhile deck, with the fantastic bonus of a 78 speed, but at any moment it may turn to junk. Just Google SP15 off speed.

What is the rest of your system?  Do you use exclusively phono or also spend much time with a digital source?  If the answer is the latter, you should focus on the line stage, amp, interconnects, etc., which would benefit all your music playing.

What is missing from your musical enjoyment that you are looking to address?  Is the system lacking extension at the frequency extremes, mediocre resolution and detail, the sound is dimensionally flat, etc.?

My experience for nearly 30 years has shown time and time again that the most critical cable link in the system is the IC between line stage and amp.  I can dance cables around my system, but until I put every last ounce of performance at this link, all other cable expenditures make no sense.  You have a lot invested in the AQ Thunder PC, and driving the TT motor I assume.  Why?   Don't believe the nonsense that the "best" of anything must always go the earliest stage of the system.  Have you tried this PC into the phono stage or line stage? I see this AQ cable sells for $600-700 on the used market, or at least that is what they are listed for.  My suspicion is that you are far away from spending this kind of money on a single PC until you refine other parts of the system for the next several years.  I am a HUGE fan of putting a lot of $$$$ into PCs, and I have tried and owned some with great success and others quite embarrassing for their cost, but I would suggest you get rid of the AQ cable and put that money into other system refinements.  Before you lock into any more AQ purchases, when the time is right, do some serious listening to the competition; you will be quite surprised.  In the mean time, contact the Anti Cables guy and audition 3 or 4 of his PCs and drop them all into your system at once, listen many days.  And then one by one, replace with a stock PC and make note of any differences at each link.  If you have to strain to hear any benefits, you are not at a stage where thinking about PCs makes any sense.

If you're strapped for cash, and you want to try a mid-priced IC from line to amp and/or phono to line, keep your eyes out for the Cardas Golden Cross.  This too is an old old cable.  It lacks extension at the frequency extremes, and lacks low level resolution, BUT, its midrange colorations add a degree of musical enjoyment that you have to pay a lot more to get, but of course a boat load of refinements come along too with those higher-perf cables.  The NBS and Purist cables of that same time continued on with much more of the CGC magic, but they too lack much of the refinements offered by some of today's ICs.  I tried the top tier AQ ICs and they had good clarity but were dimensionally flat and thus, out they went.  I suspect the CGC could knock your socks off at an affordable price if you have not tried them before.  Absolutely, stay away from Mogami and Canare ICs; these are horribly dimensionally flat too.

As for phono cable benefit, from my experiences, this is the second most critical cable link.  But there are so many horrible cables in this category that you have to be very careful before you commit your money.  Keep your eyes out for the Silver Audio Silver Breeze phono cable.  This is an old old model but they have to be out there from time to time.  I had to spend nearly $2k for a Stealth cable to significantly beat the SASB cable.  I suspect that the cable you have now will suffice.

One final thing, don't pay much attention to the synergy nonsense as this is nothing more than bandaging one component/cable with tonal coherency issues with another of complimentary issues.

Keep your eyes out for a used Shinon Red 1mv MC cartridge.  I use one from time to time and these are amazing.

Good luck to you.

John

MC cart in the $1k+ range.

I would want a tonearm with removable headshell, to pre-mount a few cartridges, including Mono. Arm height adjustment is important.

@elliottbnewcombjr This is all for more involved than I ever plan to get. Multiple carts, multiple arms, etc etc. Not my style. I want one set up that I can pour all of my funds and focus into, and then enjoy for long periods of time. 

@jafox 

What is the rest of your system?  Do you use exclusively phono or also spend much time with a digital source?

I specifically focused on the analog side because we're in the analog forum, it's more used than my digital, and it's where I have the most interest in spending my cash. I have been considering other new components, but I've decided to focus on sources first starting at the analog side. I also have a much better idea of what I want for the other elements, so if I see a deal I can't pass up on a piece I know I want, I would make the jump and prolong the analog updates. But it would need to be exactly what I want. No need for us to chase down that rabbit hole in this thread, but I may do the same type of thread in the digital forum in a year or two. 

What is missing from your musical enjoyment that you are looking to address? 

I believe I can achieve more detail, and a little more bottom end impact. Top end extension and imaging are very satisfying currently. 

My experience for nearly 30 years has shown time and time again that the most critical cable link in the system is the IC between line stage and amp.

I've had some friends lend me cables to experiment with, and I don't disagree with you. It's on my radar. Maybe I should bump it up the list. 

You have a lot invested in the AQ Thunder PC, and driving the TT motor I assume.  Why?

I already had a AQ Hurricane on my streamer/dac. A friend suggested that I try it on the TT, and I expected to have zero impact. I was wrong, and it made a very significant improvement. I tested this several times both alone and with friends over a few months, because that really wasn't where I wanted to spend the cash. However, I couldn't deny the results but I decided I would see if the Thunder would get the job done. Found a deal on a Thunder, very satisfied with the results. 

Have you tried this PC into the phono stage or line stage?

Already have an AQ Hurricane on the integrated amp and the dac. I was lucky enough to have the luxury to try these items in my system before investing in them. I have not yet tried it on the phono because I just got the linear power supply for it. I plan to test that in the future once I'm more familiar with the impact from the LPS on it's own. 

keep your eyes out for the Cardas Golden Cross...

Silver Audio Silver Breeze phono cable

Thank you, I'll add these to the list of considerations. I've given Cardas special consideration for the TT to phono because I know the Mofi uses Cardas wiring in the tonearm already. 

Really appreciate the detailed and thoughtful response! 

@displayname - nice rig, shows careful choices.

As you’ve discovered, better cables would help.  Consider the new Shunyata Theta line - high performance/price - TAS 2025 Product if the Year.

It would take considerable funds to upgrade turntable + arm.  Maybe next best move is try another cartridge- can always use on next turntable.

Your phono preamp is a strong link- good enough for end game unless you want to explore a tube phono.

Good luck and happy spinning!

@kennyc 

Your phono preamp is a strong link- good enough for end game unless you want to explore a tube phono.

Funny you should say that. I was strongly considering selling the 20/20 to get a Chinook SE while they are on clearance. I haven’t even heard one before, but the curiosity almost got the best of me. 

While I can’t agree that cables are a major key to audio happiness, I do agree they make a difference, and a highly colored cable like Cardas GC is likely to take you in a direction you don’t want to go based on your responses. Also I think cable performance is to a large degree hinged to the particular nature of the output and input stages that are being linked. Hence it’s not a good idea to take advice from another audiophile unless you know his system components.

"I was strongly considering selling the 20/20 to get a Chinook SE while they are on clearance."

Your table/SS phonostage is solid.

A tube phonostage could be a more profound change than what been suggested.

Naturally, YMMV.

None of those wiring items will objectively change the sound so the obvious choice is the cartridge.

+1 for a better MC

Why?  Cartridges ware out eventually. You are already committed to buying one or retipping the one you currently have, so start there!

FYI - I am very happy with my Hanna ML, which is on your short-list (my system is posted).

Good luck with your decision.

Bang for buck? The new Hana SL MkII. For $850 it is hands down the best under $1000 cart on the market, and maybe even $2000. It carries a lot of features of their higher end Umami carts and leaves enough money in your wallet for cables, if you are so inclined. The move from even a great MM cart to a MC has always been a major improvement in my systems, starting with an upgrade from an Ortofon VMS20  to an MC-20 almost 50 years ago. Fast forward, and the Hanas shocked a lot of people, providing the SQ of multi-kilobuck MCs for a fraction of the price. 

I went from a Goldring 1042 MM cartridge paired with a Sutherland KC Vibe to a Hana ML moving coil cartridge and Sutherland TZ Vibe.  Huge difference.  Some of the improvement is likely from the phono stage upgrade.

The Goldring 1042 is a nice cartridge for the money. Perhaps comparable to what you have now. 

Also wanting that cart! On the fence about it, or getting a phono preamp. 

Cables are a tweak, not so much an upgrade. IMHO, lots of cost for minimum  return. Cart upgrade are usually much bigger steps. 

On the flip side, the more you spend on a cart, the most the needle replacement will cost! Got a new cart 6mo ago, a couple weeks into having it, was cleaning my TT, when finished caught the needle with the MF towel. Pulled the needle out!! Cost $500 to replace the needle. That really hurt! That's my dilemma with a $1k cart is the almost yearly needle replacement cost. 

What is the TT placed on?

This makes a difference in bass/balance/detail with my old Thorens and it uses a sprung suspension.

I use a specialty shelf that was discontinued ages ago (use one under the CD deck as well), but I’m not familiar with the MoFi (looks interesting though).

Anyway, aside from that I would try a different cartridge.

DeKay

@mswale 

That's my dilemma with a $1k cart is the almost yearly needle replacement cost. 

Yearly? How much are you spinning? Over 4 full albums per day? 

@dekay 

What is the TT placed on?

The Ultradeck comes stock with HRS feet which do a pretty good job, and I have the TT set on a VTI rack. 

Brother in law has my low hour Lyra Delos on same TT OP has, no shortage of detail or slam…. but i also have a lot of seat time with the Hana ML and as others have said it is a fantastic value.

Have fun !

OP you might be shocked w sonic improvements made w HRS Nimbus under…. everything…. You can see extensive deployment of HRS products in my virtual systems…. they seem to multiply like… Tribles…

HRS Nimbus

I do wonder how these would sound compared to the stock feet, which are also made by HRS. 

@displayname yeah, usually listen to 4-6 records a day. My system gets turned on when I wake up, stay on for most of the day.  I work from home, most of the time work from my. listing spot.

Spinning records and making dinner has become a problem. Try to stream now when cooking. 

@mswale I’m very jealous, but that would certainly make the cost of retipping a significant factor.

I finally did some upgrades to my headphone system at my desk for WFH days. Too much zoom to sit at the stereo all though unfortunately.