Adding tube sound to my SS system

BHK is not tube amplification, it’s hybrid. You have to try all tube before making ANY judgements. With efficient speakers to match.

If yours are below 92, give it up.

This is sacrilegious, but I’ve experimented lately with SS lines stages versus my tube line stages. What I’ve concluded is that good SS line stages (Phison PD2 SE, Meridian 808v5) are highly transparent. When I add a good SS line stage in front of a tube line stage, the resulting sound is 99% that of the tube line stage alone.

That said, when I run the SS line stage on it own - directly driving power amp - it’s missing that "breath of life" in the midrange. It sounds "very good" to be sure, but I absolutely CANNOT enjoy music like that, long-term. I’ve tried. My favorite tube line stages also don’t cause any constriction to sound stage; in fact they enhance it. They add engagement factor in spades.

This is definitely anti-purist. However, I find value-add in the conveniences of the SS line stages - particularly the superior remote volume control (pots and stepped attenuators suck here) and the Left / Right balance control. Even slight channel imbalances drive me CRAZY, and many systems have one to some degree.

So am I using these expensive tube stages (VAC Master, Rogue Hera, ARC Reference 6) just as a fancy "coloring box"? Maybe. Do I care? No. I think of my eyeglasses, which from a technical standpoint are horrible little distortion generators: they add geometric distortions, chromatic aberrations, reflections, impose on the fringes of the image with their frames etc. However, they work with my own flawed eyes to allow me to perceive and enjoy much more detail than I could otherwise. I feel the same is happening with tube preamps, on some level - whatever psychoacoustics are going on between our ears and brain, the tube preamp transmits more of the musical message in a way I can enjoy it. "Ultimate transparency" be damned.

@fuzztone that is not accurate unless you are using a Flea-watt Tube amplifier. Many PP Tube Integrated and Amplifiers on the market that will power inefficient speakers. AR, Unison, Jadis,  Rogue, AH, Octave just to name a few. I have speakers with 88 db sensitivity and my Octave V110SE  drives them spectacularly and sounds heavenly. 

Budget is not too much more than my current gear and willing to buy used.

So how much is that exactly?

@fuzztone that is not accurate unless you are using a Flea-watt Tube amplifier. Many PP Tube Integrated and Amplifiers on the market that will power inefficient speakers. AR, Unison, Jadis,  Rogue, AH, Octave just to name a few. I have speakers with 88 db sensitivity and my Octave V110SE  drives them spectacularly and sounds heavenly. 

@tkrtrb125 think he meant that the BHK preamp uses both tubes and transistors as amplification devices, and that OP should try a preamp that is pure tube. Power amp is not in play, at least according to OP's provided context. 

@mulveling guess I am not good at reading between the lines. 

BHK is not tube amplification, it’s hybrid. You have to try all tube before making ANY judgements. With efficient speakers to match.

If yours are below 92, give it up.

@tkrtrb125 oh my bad lol. You are right; I scanned too fast. It's extra confusing because they make both BHK preamp and power amp units, and I think both are hybrids.

Yep ithe BHK is a hybrid tube/SS. Budget $5-10k for everything but the speakers. 

If you’re using the loudness feature on the Luxman 100% of the time then that’s an issue IMO, and I doubt the ESS DAC in the Lumin is doing you any favors either.  In fact, I’d suggest doing a trial of the new LTA Aero DAC as that could potentially be transformative on its own, and their trial option makes it easy.  Past that, maybe a hybrid integrated like a Unison Research Unico would be a good option as it’ll likely put more flesh on the bone musically, and you can roll input tubes to tailor the sound to your liking.  Just a couple ideas FWIW, and best of luck. 

I like the idea of the LTA Aero DAC a lot, but the no digital volume control through Roon or Tidal via my iPhone is a deal breaker for me. I know digital volume control isn’t ideal, but supposedly the Leedh on the LUMIN is pretty solid. 

I find the topic very interesting . Myself grew up on vacuum tube amps and was not until the 80s where SS amps started to sound respectable ,for most had great detail but on the cold side . Also one always are or where in the mindset that you need a 80lb amplifier Huge transformer and 100s thousands of UF capacitance .

I have had a big Coda amp , Now I have on trial a small  GanFet amplifier,

or monoblocks  with totally proprietary custom made modules, and also a unique power supply ,instead of a Big LPS power supply and many inductors and loaded with capacitance to keep up with the power supply ,this PS automatically adjusts  with frequency response at a faster rate and much smaller ,think of a stun gun ,it maybe small but packs a heck of a punch .I am giving them 2 weeks of runin time to complement  one of my New dacs . Now the Mrs is starting to except the concept I can now get some new Audio toys !!

I have migrated slowly over the decades to all tubes. Seduced one component at a time. I now have all Audio Research equipment. I find Luxman to be overly trebly with a bit of a bass kick and very lean midrange. The missing midrange takes away the rhythm and pace… the seductive musical part while delivering imaging and transparency.

I find Audio Research gives the musical natural midrange and the detailed / transparency. Listen to an Audio Research I-50. I instantly fall into the music listening to the I-50. Your speakers are efficient enough (90) to be well powered by the 50. Tubes sound much more powerful than solid state. Even if you choose to go up on the ARC line up the I-50 will give you a taste.

If you choose to go one component at a time do preamp first then amp. 

https://tmraudio.com/components/preamplifiers/modwright-analog-bridge-tube-buffer/

I have both the BHK Signature preamp and the BHK300 mono blocks and I love the ability to change tubes on either of them. In the preamp I’ve tried 5-6 different tubes and have been using NOS, RCA clear tops for the last couple of months.  On the amps, I have had NOS Mullard 7308’s in for about six months and am very happy with the sound.

I was running a Rogue RP-7 tube preamp into a highly-regarded Rogue tube power amp, the power amp replacing a SS amp driving my Fyne Audio F-702 speakers that were made in Scotland.  I felt it resulted in degraded tonal qualities of instruments, reduced definition, and slightly reduced soundstage.  I replaced the tube power amp—but kept the tube preamp—with a pair of Odyssey SS monobloc amps, and I have regained what I lost plus gained better imaging and depth and lateral dispersion of soundstage.  This may be partly a result of the Odyssey amps having twice the output of the tube power amp, but the reversion to the previous qualities with a SS amp tells me that much of the improvement is from going back to solid state amps. I am very pleased with the results and suspect— on-scientifically—that it may have been a case of “too much of the good tube thing.”  But, then, it really is all about how the music sounds.  Simply my experience and perceptions.

PS Audio BHK is a hybrid preamp 

it is not a tube preamp, @trentgordon 

how much do you want to spend?
do you want a more modern tube sound or a more classic tube sound?

@mike4597 +1: Tube amps have a weak link with their output transformers. Distortion and phase issues/frequency response are difficult to reduce/eliminate. 

I've tried several different preamps in my system including the Luxman c900 which there top of the line.

I ended up with and Aric Audio Motherload XL tube in my system.

Esoteric N01 XD SE > Aric audio Motherload XL > M10X or Aric audio 300B PSET.

This feeds both my Luxman M10X and 300b PSET amps.

I have been leaning to acoustic type music in multiple genres so I was looking for the sounds like you stumbled on as well. I had a Luxman integrated with the loudness feature a few years ago and used it on low level listening. I simulate that in the Roon if listening at low levels now and want to use.

If the tubes are coloring the sound I like it.

You might want to look at something different than your T2. I had one for a bit and loved 8 out of 10 tracks but really got tiresome after a bit. The Cary 600 or 700 will sound much better or a Bricasti M3 w/network card will sound much fuller sound and larger soundstage. You may miss a little top end energy at first but when you get used to it you will love the ease in which the music plays. Sabre dacs can be ruthless on a system. 
All the above mentioned streamer/dacs are under 3,500 on the used market so you  won’t be putting a lot dough out of your pocket. 
 

@curiousjim

I also have the BHK Signature preamp followed by 
Pass Labs X260.8 Mono Amplifiers (2)
Martin Logan Expression ESL 13A Electrostatic Speakers.

I understand it has two 12AU7 dual-triodes tubes.
The original tubes have many hours on them;  I use the preamp daily for Home Theater and 2-channel sound.
Questions:
1) What would I hear when the tubes need to be replaced?  In other words, how do I know that I need to replace the tubes?  Everything sounds fine to me now.  This is my first tube anything.
2) There seems to be a lot of 12AU7 tubes available by many manufacturers.  Which manufacturer would you suggest?
3) You stated  “In the preamp I’ve tried 5-6 different tubes and have been using NOS, RCA clear tops for the last couple of months.”  Can you give me ideas of what you heard with the different tubes you tried?   
4) Does using the unit in the home theater bypass cause any wear and tear on the tubes or are they not involved in the action?  The preamp is on doing home theatre duty the majority of the time.  I do not get much time to listen exclusively to the 2 channel stereo. 

Thank you for your help

This is not very High End Audio of me, but let me offer another solution that is cheap and fun: The Joilda (Fosgate-designed) Foz SSX. I bought one for use with headphones when I had a job that would take me away from home for two months every year. 

It can go between your preamp and power amp. It does three things: it is a tube buffer, and changing its single 12au7 tube has great and fun effects on sound. It has a bass control that I think of as a thickening agent, as it increases the bass, and also thickens the lower midrange just a little. And it has a crossfeed circuit (that's the Sound Stage Expander, or SSX portion) that lets you play with the width of your soundstage. 

Again, I used it for headphones so I could have some control over the soundstage of my phones, while adding or subtracting bass. And to warm up my good, but somewhat cool headphone amp.

Recently, I have tried it with an inexpensive solid state amp, and I can't get over how much it improved the musical enjoyment, and at a relatively low cost to fidelity. Might be fun for folks to try. We can't be purists all of the time... 

I jumped into to tubes in 2007 with a Primaluna Prologue II.  Slowly added more tubes-phono stage, tuner, DAC.

I now use a 4 watt Decware Mini Torii with the same speakers I used with the 35wpc Primalune: Reference 3A de Capos 92db.  Plenty loud if you still want to keep your hearing. 

My CDP is not tube but my DAC is an MHDT Stockholm, very sweet musical sound.  My phono stage is a Hagerman Cornet II.  easy to maintain  fantastic to listen to.  Also had a second tube system with Klipsch Quartets run with a 6 watt Grommes.  Again musical.

https://tmraudio.com/components/preamplifiers/modwright-analog-bridge-tube-buffer/

@jbuhl  Yep - the "Analog Bridge" by ModWright is a fantastic suggestion for OP that shouldn't get buried. And Dan Wright is truly a great guy. I almost picked up one myself, but I'm such a gear hoarder and already have so many tube components - I'm not sure I have a use case for it yet. Seems perfect for OP to try. 

A lot of tube preamps use something like an Alps RK27 pot (aka "Blue Velvet", or its motorized version), which always audibly penalizes sound quality (even if slightly) whenever I've compared it to other alternatives. Even up to very high MSRP's, you see that ubiquitous blue plastic pot all too often. I hate it! I absolutely hate the Alps Blue. I can't understate that. In general, the volume control is often a weak point of the tube preamp. The Bridge avoids that issue.

I was running a Rogue RP-7 tube preamp into a highly-regarded Rogue tube power amp, the power amp replacing a SS amp driving my Fyne Audio F-702 speakers that were made in Scotland.  I felt it resulted in degraded tonal qualities of instruments, reduced definition, and slightly reduced soundstage.  I replaced the tube power amp—but kept the tube preamp—with a pair of Odyssey SS monobloc amps, and I have regained what I lost plus gained better imaging and depth and lateral dispersion of soundstage. 

@mike4597 Most of the Rogue power amps (I had Apollo Darks) do not sound like traditional tubes. And the RP-9 didn't sound even *slightly* like a tube preamp to me (like the RP-7, it's actually a hybrid). I've had Solid State amps that are actually "sweeter" sounding. Glad you found what works in your system! Nice speakers.

I agree with @soix and others about maybe changing up the DAC.  I know this is a different direction than going down the tube path but a ladder DAC (R2R) might get you moving towards the sound you're looking for.  There are lots of options that would pair with the level of equipment you are running.  I would research which of the R2R DACs have the warmest presentation since that's what you're chasing.  Good luck and cheers.

I was going to suggest a Foz SSX but @dtorc beat me to it. This little gizmo definitely has an effect on the sound. I use one in my desktop system and the stereo width and bass features are very nice. I've hooked it up into my main system (Krell/Thiel) and I decided that I preferred the sound without it.

The other thing I've tried is the Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer. I have this in the tape loop of my main system which is a great way to compare the sound with it and without it. It makes a very subtle difference in my system but YMMV.

Both of these units are relatively inexpensive and can be a low cost way to test the effect of tubes in your electronics chain.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and thoughts!  Seems like changing the DAC or trying the Modwright tube buffer are great options without starting from scratch. On the search now for a tube or r2r dac that allows me to control volume from within Roon but not having much luck.  Might be asking too much here...  

I know the Rockna Waelight is going to have a bluetooth based volume control you can run off your phone.  I am not sure if it integrates within Roon but it may.  I am one of the Rockna dealers in the US.  I have wavedreams open right now but not the wavelight.  

Love or Hate the following proposal, there is substantiation to the post now I have recently been demo'd DHT Pre's in a system that is very familiar to myself.

In another Thread I stated: 

"I put a few friends onto the Douk E6, and one of the models purchased, is after a period of trial, now is seriously considering to be a replacement for the owners  Django TVC. This was unexpected, as I thought of the E6 as a very affordable methods for dipping of ones toes into a DHT type Pre Amp.

The E6 was only presented to the group of friends, as another friend in the group, who is a very competent EE, has investigated and invested quite a few £000's in another UK based EE's DHT Pre Amp Design, that was getting good appraisals during the  Honeymoon Period of its use". 

Since this Post I have been demo'd DHT Pre Amp's and am left jaw droppingly amazed from what can be attained.

To give another avenue of thought about the Douk E6 one owner of the E6 and the owner of the system I received demo's of DHT Pre Amp's. In the past was selecting Pre Amp's to use with their Source being a SP10R > Glanz 1200S > Miyajima Cart' and  EAR Power Amplification.

A Relevant Model EAR Pre Amp' was used in  line up of a selection of Pre-Amps, of which the selection were ranging in value to quite a few £0000's in Total.

The Pre Amp' that was selected, is now used in conjunction with the Douk E6 'that has received the few recommended modifications that have been discovered to transform it and elevate the presentation'. The systems owner is totally satisfied with how the E6 influences to end sound of certain genre of music replayed on their system.

This is a very very cost effective way to create a experience being investigated.

Best sounding $10K tube preamp for $4K....Audio GD HE-1 XLR....awesomely Musical.

@rick_n

Absolutely - a good "ladder DAC" makes a great improvement to most any system.  And... they're very reasonably priced.  The Schitt Yggy produces amazing sound with the qualities the OP is seeking...

Personally, I didn’t find the Yggdrasil to bring me anywhere near to what I expect from "tube sound". It was a very good DAC to be sure, but still rather SS sounding. The Meridian DACs (566, 808 series) are not even R2R and get me closer to the sound I wanted than Yggy did - but DAC rolling in general is no substitute for a tube component downstream, if that’s what one craves IMO. I used Yggy most with tube amps, and liked it better that way than paired to SS amps.

For context - I had the OG Yggy Analog 1 and later the Analog 2. Haven’t heard the recent ones. The USB implementations back then (USB 3 and then USB 5) sounded awful to me (bright, lean, fatiguing) - had to feed it coax to be happy.

OP could look at tube DACs, but they’re simply a DAC box with a tube output buffer built in. Modwright’s bridge will be much higher quality and more flexible.

How is the Yiggy an R2R DAC? It uses a DAC chip. Unless I am missing the meaning of an R2R.

How is the Yiggy an R2R DAC? It uses a DAC chip. Unless I am missing the meaning of an R2R.

A chip is just a package. It doesn’t disqualify R2R / ladder conversion. The Yggy (OG versions, at least) were an R2R DAC based on a chip that was (IIRC) manufactured for medical devices, and re-purposed by Schiit’s digital engineer. BurrBrown made an R2R chip that was popular for a long time - the 1704.

Now if you restricted your query to discrete R2R, then chips would be disqualified :) 

Tube insertion along the Signal path influences mid and upper range frequencies very favorably due to increased harmonic influences. Solid state amplification is best for lower frequencies. So rather than go back-and-forth along the teeter totter of audio frustration I decided to biamplify using a tube amp for the upper ranges and a solid-state amp for the lower freqs, all with plenty of power.

Now I don’t struggle with being critical about what I’m hearing from my system. My concerns now Focus on the quality of the actual recording and there’s no way to resolve these types of problems. And of course dealing with potential speaker changes which are a pain in the neck.

And if everything fails I’ll buy a puppy.

@mulveling  Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your response, as I was not aware there were chip based R2R', but it does make sense to me now.

I’m learning a lot here much appreciated. I’m thinking of going with one of the two options below into my Luxman 509 integrated. Any thoughts on which would be better? Both about $4k  

- new LTA Aero r2r tube DAC into the luxman integrated

- used r2r dac like an Yggy into a tube preamp like the Audio GD HE-1 XLR then into the luxman 509 integrated. This would mean two preamps in the same chain one being tube and the luxman SS. 

I found the Yggdrasil to sound very good for the money but nowhere as good as a good quality $5K or higher DAC… it’s treble is unrefined and overall the sound is thin. But, it’s good for a budget DAC. 

@ghdprentice

I guess it just depends on your range of experience with various DAC’s. I relied on the opinions of all these experts with a wide range of experience - to select the Yggy, which I’ve found to be everything they reported it to be...

https://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

It seems to have a "magical," rich, warm, yet detailed, resolved sound and soundstage (an almost analog sound) - that I don’t find in many DAC’s, other than pehaps, some of the better "ladder DAC’s."

But then... I was using the MC2 Zen ASU/EBU Digital cable (which is the best type of digital interface) into the ARC Ref 5se Tube Preamp - which may make a difference!

I have an Aesthetics Signature line preamp as well as an Aesthetics Signature phono preamp.  They are both tube preamps.  They feed into a couple of large Krell SS amps.You get that smooth warm sound of tubes and the great unlimited dynamic sound of the SS amps.

I am more of a novice on these things. I like using a tube preamp with a SS class A amp.

Now I am using a McIntosh 110z  preamp with a first watt j2 class A amp, spinning records on a thorns 124.. 

A very musical presence and quite a kick in the low ends.

If you need more power try a Threshold 400 A.

I suggest the OP could use a few more direct thoughts on what he experienced, which was that a switch in preamps provided engaging midrange but a lack of bass and soundstage...perhaps that means HF detail to pinpoint stereo image?

Keep in mind this may have nothing to do with tubes at all. Much of the sound quality of a component system comes from the relationship and synergy of the components.  

This is nowhere more true than the match between preamp and amp.  Impedance, how hot the signal is...very relevant stuff.  

Additionally, if the OP always has loudness on with his preamp, then either (1) he isn't actually that fond of its sound or (2) he listens at low volumes.

My suggestion:  try different preamps until you get an amp match (or I suppose vice versa - but I'm presuming the amp and speakers are a good match to eliminate variables). 

For example - you use the Lumin to control volume...try that directly to the power amp.  Not my jam -- I have found I strongly prefer an actual active preamp in my system -- but it is worth it to get a sense of what needs effort. 

See if you can borrow a couple other preamps. Or do the math and find one that matches the power amp. 

Finally, I have found that tube buffers are a bit more of a novelty than anything else - one thing to actual use tubes in the necessary circuitry, but a tube buffer really cannot do more than coloration.  At least the ones I am aware of - perhaps some help with component matching or similar (in which case put it b/w the pre- and the power amp). 

My bottom line is that being somewhat analytical about upgrade paths is going to help you get to your objectives faster than just pulling out the wallet or taking gear recommendations from posters with different systems, different rooms, and different ears. 

To me, matching gear is at least equally important to some perceived "gear quality" based on price or similar factors. Secondarily, people are constantly surprised at how toe-in (or not) on speakers, and adjusting front and rear feet on them, can make a massive difference. 

I don't have the space for a full tube preamp. But a tube buffer is another matter. In my big desktop system (SS headphone amp/preamp [Violectric V281], class D amps [Bel Canto 600Ms], speakers [Harbeth 30.1s] and sub [JLAudio e110], I use a DAC that combines old-school Philips chips + a tube output buffer: the MHDT Labs Orchid. I have the best NOS buffer tube plus adapter that I could find.

The results are subtle and all positive. There is obviously real synergy in this collection of components. When I switch in a "better," more expensive NOS DAC, the Metrum Onyx, the sound via speakers is not quite the same. Yet in a different, headphone-only system also using the Violectric V281, the Only easily betters the Orchid.

(synergy)

For just a touch of tube sound with SS amplification I’d stick with an Audio Research pre-amp. Just make sure the input impedance of the SS amp is a good match to avoid flabby bass and distortion in that most tube pre amps have higher output impedance than SS. . 60kohm SS amp input impedance with most tube pre amps is probably a safe bet but 100kohm or even higher won’t hurt. I’d go with a fully balanced XLR connection if possible.

A few years ago I had a Musical Fidelity tube buffer stage that you could put between pre amp and amp or into a tape loop, etc.  I personally did not care for it, but it or something similar may be an easy easy and inexpensive way to add a little tube sound into your current set up.  Got rid of my Mac tube amplifiers also.  Guess I'm a SS guy all the way.

Reporting back after a ton of research and experimenting. 

I've been demoing the LTA Aero and Mojo Mystique Y in my system this last week and thought I'd share my early impressions.  While waiting about a month for these to arrive, I also tried some other speaker cables.  Supra 3.4, Mogami w3104, Oyaide Tunami v2, and Neotech 3001.  I had some excessive brightness/harsh treble that made some tracks hard to listen to.  Speaker cables made a huge difference surprisingly and each of those upgrades provided noticeable improvements! 

System now is Roon Nuc - Ifi Zen Stream w/ elite LPS - DAC - Luxman l509x - Spendor D9.2.

I previously had a Lumin T2.  I don't think it synergized well with the spendor Ds and luxman.  It was too detailed and analytical for me for speakers which already lean a touch that direction for my tastes.  

Both of these DACs completely changed the system for me.  Albums I previously thought were poor recordings revealed by my revealing system are now enjoyable.  There is more weight, organic richness, tone and life to the music.  I could happily live with either one.  Its going to be difficult to decide.

I swapped tubes in the Aero to the Ray Tubes Reserve 6sn7.  That changed the character of the Aero and made me realize how tube rolling can influence the sound.  The 6sn7 toned down some of the incisive zippy nature of the Aero and gave more tonal richness, lifelike insight into the music.  I've also been trying a Cary SLP-05 tube preamp into the separates input on the luxman which is pure magic.  The Aero with stock tubes straight into the Luxman gave perhaps 30% of the tube magic vs including the Cary in the chain. The Ray Tubes Reserve 6sn7 gets me 70% of the tube magic while retaining more of the drive and solidity of the Luxman preamp.  The aero with the 6sn7s into the luxman I would describe as spacious, detailed, insightful, organic, rich, airy and alive.  The band sounds in my room vs listening to a great recording.  Acoustic and jazz shines.

The Mojo also sounds fantastic and swapping back and forth between the Aero and also including the Cary preamp it's difficult to nail down a clear winner.  The Mojo is smooth, dense, very composed and clear.  The soundstage is a touch narrower but more dense.  It is even handed.  It also has similar giddieup to the Aero with the 6sn7 tubes (although not as much as the stock tubes which want to boogie).  I seemed to like the Mojo best relative in comparison to the Aero with more produced music like Abbey Road or an Eryka Badu album. 

At this point I'm leaning towards the Aero with the upgraded tubes and sticking with the Luxman vs going tube pre / ss power amp.  It gives me some of the tube magic while keeping the setup simpler and it sounds fantastic.  Its a tough call though, the Mojo also is a lovely DAC.  The Cary is special.  I have more listening to do.  Thanks to all the folks on this forum sharing their experience.  Really happy with how things are sounding over here.

Wow. Thanks for the detailed report. really appreciated. Lots of work on your side! Good for you.

But a question… I know you are doing this in a really short time… is all this equipment fully broken in? … as having 150 - 200 hours of play time before analysis and comparison. Or, if used and already broken in, an additional 20 hours to settle down. New equipment tends to be trebly and thin and often a bit noisy… then settles down and becomes more relaxed and natural sounding when you are over 150 to 200 hours. My Audio Research gear needs 600 hours to fully open up… granted after 200 the difference is not night and day.

Cary is definitely special… and if not broken in fully will just sound better and better.

Great question! The Cary is used and plenty broken in and includes ultimate upgrade. Mojo is a demo unit and LTA does 100 hours of burn in I think before they ship