DAC shopping - Trying to sift through the Hype. Can I trust the reviews these days ??

If it's any help, I posted my review of the Denafrips Pontus Gen 15 here (under the Digital heading) on 11/13. I'm aware that this DAC presents differently from its predecessor, the Pontus 12th (based on what I've read, having never actually heard one). However, taken on its own terms, I'm really pleased with the Gen 15. Of course, it's all about personal preference, that is, whether this particular presentation appeals to your own taste. It certainly appeals to mine!

The refurbished PS Audio Direct stream MkI for $1599 is a screaming deal. I got one via TMR and also an Airlens. Very happy with the combo.

SNS

For me (I use the Denafrips Iris DDC with a TXCO temperature controlled crystal oscillator), the combo of the DDC and the use of I2S from it to the Pontus II was definitely a 1 + 1 = 3 situation. The Supra 2.1 HDMI cable is terrific for the $60 it costs, but the Audioquest Vodka 48 8k/10k is extraordinary.....and I am NOT an Audioquest fan; but that particular cable is the best I2S cable I've ever tried

I'd suggest anyone with I2S capable dac to procure a ddc or I2S capable streamer with OXCO clock, slave/sync this clock to dac. You will get greater resolution/transparency and possibly even more important a much more analog like presentation vs any present input being used. Greater resolution/transparency due to I2S being the native signal path within dacs, dac no longer has to convert other schemes to I2S, also doesn't have to extract data from clock. More analog like presentation due to superior OXCO clocking. Over the many years I've been streaming have tried various clocking schemes, this via usb,with more precise clocking heard direct correlation to a less digital presentation, the long known effects of jitter became manifest. Move on to I2S via Denafrips Gaia with it's OXCO clock, immediately and easily heard presentation that flows much like my pretty nice vinyl setup, far superior to clocking improvements via usb.

Bottom line, for this decades long, somewhat jaded audiophile, the conversion to I2S rates in the very top tier of upgrades, very meaningful.

@calvinandhobbes @vthokie83 It seems like the performance of the Pontas ii can't be denied.

 I can get a used one at a reasonable price. Do a comparison and see where I'm at. Cheap experiment that might yield new results.

@bunkertoy you’ve got an awesome streamer / server!  I confused your set up with someone else’s in this thread who piggybacked off your initial question.  Have fun with the DAC search!  You have a great system that will highlight the differences. 

@marquis4099 what streamer / server do you have paired with the McIntosh DAC in your pre?  I haven’t heard the DAC in your Pre but have read posts by others who own Mac gear and have very positive thing to say about the DAC.  I’d get the HiFi Rose 130b which is a streamer only but an outstanding streamer.  Buy it from a dealer with a return / trail period.  If you feel like you want to upgrade the DAC and streamer you can exchange for one of HiFi Roses DAC / Streaming combos.  If you get the 130 you’ll be set up to upgrade your DAC down the road.  Have fun, good luck.

I am also searching for a DAC/Streamer. I have been looking at the HiFi Rose the model 150 and the model 250A. My equipment is a McIntosh MA 462 power amplifier and a C55 Preamplifier. My C55 has a built in DAC. How good is the DAC in my Preamplifier compared to the HIfi Rose or other DACs? I am open to recommendations, viewpoints, and critical evaluations.

An anecdote about how much I like the sound of the Pontus II. I decided to listen to much more expensive DACs over the past two years, because I was curious to figure out what spending a LOT more money in a DAC could get me.

Note as context for my impressions: I listen to a lot of acoustic and vocal music (jazz, classical) so an organic tonal quality is important to me. Detail and resolution is important as well, but secondary to tonal quality and a sound that conveys air and space well.

I listened to the dCS Bartok APEX, dCS Puccini Apex, and the Linn Organik DAC in their Klimax DSM. Of these three network music players that I heard, the only one that I would want to replace the Pontus II regardless of price was the Linn.

1. dCS Bartok APEX, $14.5k: Not only did this not clearly sound better than the Pontus, my impression is that I liked the Pontus for the music I prefer.
2. dCS Puccini APEX, $32k: Really good from an "objective" standpoint on your typical audiophile measures, but didn’t seem to engage me. The tonal quality of the sound also seemed a bit synthetic.
3. Linn Organik DAC in the Linn Klimax DSM: $40k (but Organik DAC is also available in the Selekt DSM unit starting around $20k): Definitely better in all ways than my Pro-ject streamer/ Pontus II DAC, but the improvement in resolution (and tonal quality to a lesser degree) is only a marginal gain.

The Denafrips Pontus II DAC is not hype nor a promotion. It is most likely one of the best selling DACs for at least 3 years, with hundreds and hundreds of positive reviews. I've had mine for 3 years, and it has held it's own as I've upgraded the rest of my system a couple of times (new amps, preamps, speakers, cables, power input, CD tranpsorts, etc.

The Pontus II is one of those special products that hit a grand slam upon release and remains one of the most musical, enjoyable, listenable, and fun DACs I've heard....at an amazing price of $2,000 for the 15th for the current release.....I think I paid $1,450 for mine when I bought it.

It is not the most detailed, the quickest, and is of course not perfect. I will replace mine next year, and move the Pontus II to a second system.....as my system now is good enough for a better DAC. Yes I2S does make a difference, it's the best way to drive the Pontus II (and I'd suspect any DAC that supports it)

I'm all about analog. low fatigue sounds. full sound with timbre, holographic,tubey,warm.

@bunkertoy The Pontus II is great at conveying timbre and sounding warm. Is it better than your Bel Canto? The only way to tell is to have it in your system and try it out. Perhaps get a used Pontus II so you can resell it if it's not an improvement. One suggestion for the Pontus II is that it sounded best to me with a Supra LoRad power cable at about US $91. I've tried 11 power cables on the Pontus ranging from $15 to $1400 and the LoRad is the one that sounded best to my ears.

@freediver @tkrtrb125 You're both misunderstanding the effect of noise (EMI or RFI) on a digital component. You won't hear noise as audible static or hash. Instead, it affects how music is reproduced. Noise makes digital music sound more edgy and less smooth. Some people perceive this as not sounding as smooth as analog reproduction via a turntable or R2R tape deck. Others "hear" noise only when they listen to the same recording with noise filtered out.

@bunkertoy ...You know how this stupid hobby is... It sounds great, but maybe I can change it up. What’s the deal with R2R...? everyone is talking about it. :).

When comparing a good delta sigma dac to an equivalent quality R2R resistor-ladder dac, some people tend to focus on these topics. Sharing a few of my own notes, and I learned not all R2R dacs are created equal. There are other members here on Agon who’ve tried far more dacs than I have, and they will likely chime in more. Sharing some of my prior Industry notes and comments collected fwiw:

The preference for R2R (Resistor-to-Resistor) DACs over Delta-Sigma DACs often comes down to sound quality and personal preference. There are a few reasons why some people favor R2R DACs:

Sound Signature: Many audiophiles feel that R2R DACs produce a more natural and musical sound. They often describe Delta-Sigma DACs as sounding a bit more clinical or sterile in comparison.

Linearity: R2R DACs are known for their high linearity, which means they can reproduce audio signals with less distortion.

Simplicity: R2R DACs have a simpler design compared to Delta-Sigma DACs, which use complex algorithms and filtering. This simplicity can translate to a more straightforward and transparent sound.

Resolution: Some listeners believe that R2R DACs offer better resolution and detail, especially in the midrange frequencies.

@decooney Seems many people are saying the same about my Bel Canto 3.7. I did blow $1500 in upgrades last year. It's non-fatiguing and at times warm.

You know how this stupid hobby is... It sounds great, but maybe I can change it up. What's the deal with R2R...? everyone is talking about it. :).

@audiotroy The Antipodes is a great server/streamer. The reason I started this chat is because I'm using the Spdif output, not the USB. USB is what Antipodes suggest to use.

From the Streamer an AES/EBU cable is used into the Weiss DAC and then XLR or RCA form the Weiss goes to the Pre or intreated AMP.  A wise man told me that AES/EBU is where the magic happens having something to do with how the DAC takes over???? Anyway hope you get to try one. They come up used.

All DACs sound different, how different depends on system resolution,testing methodology, and listening acumen.

the best way we have found play a 20 sec snippet of music note the volume level on a SPL meter then switch Dacs repeat and note what changes.

as per USB this OP has a superb Antipodes server, so its USB output will sound great.

What matters is the servers design.

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect NJ

@gryphongryph As I mentioned in my earlier post, I am really interested in the Audial DAC S5b. When you get it, please let me know how you like it and what qualities it has. It is a real intriguing DAC. I'm sort of stuck until I get something sold. 

@bunkertoy I know you are getting a bunch of suggestions. Just remember to look at all of the specs on them. Some don't do DSD. Some do not oversample (if that is something you want). Some don't have many digital inputs. I am pretty much committed for my new DAC to have an i2s input so I can use the DDC to the full potential. Some DACs use i2s as their native language so it would seem to make sense to use that input if it is available.

Right now, for me, it is basically looking like either the Pontus 15th or the Audial DAC S5b although some others merit consideration such as the refurbished PS Audio Direct Stream or the Audio-gd R-7HE Mk 2 or 3. Also if a used La Scala showed up at a good price or a Holo May, I would jump at those. 

Anyhow, I still suggest you try a DDC first and possibly save yourself a bunch of money if you think your DAC is good but want to try different inputs.

@bunkertoy going slightly in a different direction from some responses here, I’d share your BelCanto 3.7 is quite nice as-is. You might have to spend quite a bit more $ than some of the lower cost R2R dacs mentioned to beat what you have now = which is known to be smooth sounding dac with nice presentation.

Having also tried some of the lower cost R2Rs myself just for fun, and compared against my own prior dacs. designed and built around that exact same BB TI/PM1792 chipset, I enjoyed those dacs too. If you have a chance, go for a top shelf R2R true resistor ladder dacs to make it a more helpful and compelling comparison, ime. Interested to see what you end up trying, testing, comparing if you do proceed. If not, enjoy what you have now which is very nice too 

For accuracy, I have an RME ADI FS 2. It has USB, Toslink, and coax inputs. Among the half dozen digital filters is NOS. And a five-band parametric equalizer if you are into that.
"I'm all about analog. low fatigue sounds. full sound with timbre, holographic,tubey,warm." To get that, I run the RME output through a tube preamp. It also helps to have appropriate speakers for that sound.

Yep, all dacs sound the same, all cables sound the same, all amps sound the same, all preamps sound the same, usb is the best interface, on and on with all the audio myths.

Huge difference in sq, huge difference in chips/non-chip dacs (I only get fpga based dacs), and usb is the worst interface to a dac. If it was so good, why the hundreds of reclockers, cable splitting the power/data runs, femto clocks, offramp devices, on and on. The better streamers/dacs don’t even have usb, my streamer doesn’t.

Remember the special interfaces between cd/sacd players and their preamps? Look at Esoteric products, they use i2s.

99% of audio people will never try/audition i2s or Ethernet interfaces because the cheaper dacs don’t include them. So before anybody has an opinion on i2s or Ethernet, verify that they has actually used this or disqualify it right away.

My dac includes all interfaces and I have tested usb vs Ethernet vs i2s. Last place is usb, second place is Ethernet and 1st place is i2s.

Pontus II lacks true NOS mode, while the Cyan 2 operates exclusively in NOS. It seems the Laiv is a well-rounded DAC option for a 'purist' but also want to have an option of filtering for some genres of music.

The Harmony DAC is a real surprise, fights way above its weight only negative is it's a little not tube sounding. Also the biggest change in audio quality to me hasn't been cables or components but the switch to the Is2 connection much better than USB and it's easy to tell. 

@Bunkertoy, if you’re interested in R2R dacs and would like to sample the technology without spending a lot of money, you may want to consider the older Audio By Van Alstine dacs. A few years back I purchased a 2008 AVA Insight multibit dac for about $300. It’s really quite good and has me wondering what the logic is in spending thousands of dollars on a dac. However, that’s just my subjective opinion and as such should be taken with a grain of salt.

Best of luck in your search for a new dac and most of all enjoy the journey! 😊

@mm1tt77 Some great info there. I'm very curious about the new LTA dac. I've always dreamed of owning one of their Preamps, but out of my price range. LTA is a solid company.

I do like that my DAC has a separate power supply, it's always best to get the power in it's own chassis. With my Antipodes streamer I also use a Sbooster. As far as streamers go... I like Antipodes or Innuos, because they both support SqueezeLite. That's my ecosystem of choice. Both companies make solid Streamer/Servers.

So how many dac suggestions do we have here on this thread alone? Anyone shopping for a dac should be confused.

My overall take on dacs, this based on countless reviews, opinions and my own listening, is that digital as it pertains to A to D and D to A conversion has finally become a mature technology and industry. Not that difficult to achieve relatively high levels of resolution, transparency in  dacs, presentation is where the greatest differences will be found. And I'm not saying there are NOT meaningful differences in the realm of resolving, transparency, only that even at lower price levels dacs may provide all the resolution many systems are capable of. 

Streaming setups is where the real action is, innovation coming fast and furious. One can't even begin to know what their dac capable of without first attending to the entire streaming chain.

Tons of great responses.

@jimmyblues1959 Totally agree about the marketing aspect. My speakers are Revival Atalante 3. They are a new speaker company, based in France. The engineer is from Dynaudio. I'm so happy with these. I found them through discussions on a forum.

Point being there have been many DACs mentioned in this thread which I would never have looked up, so many thanks for expanding my search. Totally spending hours reading and searching reviews, while I listen to music. Not a bad way to spend a day.

@dz13 @mitch2 @trivema I really like to try the idea of a DDC. could be an interesting experiment, with low cost.

@bunkertoy I wouldn’t blindly subscribe to all DAC’s in a $ 1,000-3,000 sound the same, even if they share similar designs.  I’ve been able or lucky enough to be able to compare DAC’s in my system, have had Node 2i, Lumin D2 w/Sbooster, MHDT Pagota Balanced and the DAC in a Krell Illusuons ii Pre.  I was able to swap between the DAC’s and also use either the Node 2i and Lumin D2 as a streamer only.  I then sold the D2 and bought an AURALiC G2 as a stand alone streamer.  I still had the Node, MHDT and Krell and would switch between them.  They all sounded noticeably different.  With all of the DAC’s using the stand alone streamer was a noticeable step up.  Synergy was also a big part of the equation.  Choosing the input and output’s also played a key role.  I moved on to a Lumin P1 and then to a Lumin U2 mini w/Sbooster feeding a PS Audio Direct Stream MKii.  So, I’ve had R2R, various Chip designs, FPGA designed DAC’s and they all sound different in my system, noticeably.  I can also hear differences when changing inputs / outputs.  
 

Finding either a streamer that’s versatile and can play well many DAC’s and various outputs or getting a Streamer that is known, designed to have a special connection to a DAC like say the PS Audio Airlens and MKii using the I2s are keys.  
 

You have a really nice DAC already, I don’t know that in this price range you’ll beat it, more likely you’ll find something that sounds different.  I like the advice you got around picking a versatile streamer, enjoying the DAC you have and then upgrading the DAC down the road.  If you do roll with a new DAC and want North American made or European made and want to go the R2R route, Linear Tube Audio (LTA) just launched their first DAC, it’s R2R and has a Tube stage.  It’s getting a lot of love and they are known for making outstanding gear with high quality parts usually not found in gear at the price ranges they sell at.  Schit also has a crazy ratio, value relative to price.  If you venture into Asian made products, MHDT offers some really well implemented R2R tube stage DAC’s.  If you went with an all in 1 box, a Lumin T3 used would be a nice step up but then you are a little more limited, not as flexible as having separates.  Used will give you a nice bang for your buck.  Another highly regarded R2R Tube DAC made in the U.S. is the Audio Mirror Tubador has gotten a lot of love in the past but haven’t heard much recently. 
 

Synergy is key, the streamer and how well it plays with the DAC matters, how well the DAC matches the Pre / Amp also play a big role.  The technology is always evolving from DAC standpoint but a well implemented power supply and output stages along with the overall design of the DAC are way more important than the latest chip.  Out of all the DAC’s I’ve had, the MHDT Pagoda balanced was my favorite.  Next to the Node 2i, was the cheapest, the design was old school, R2R with a tube stage.  At some point I’m going to either buy this DAC again or a similar design, something like the LTA or Tubador to compare to the PS Audio.  
 

Good Luck! 
 

After thinking about a new dac for over a year I have decided on the Audial DAC S5b. Why you could ask? It uses a very old chip.

But that is one of the reasons, these chips were abandoned because they were very expensive to manufacture. Also in my opinion the implementation is the all important aspect of a dac. Pedja has spent years optimizing this design.

The dac I have been using for last many years is a Primare dac30 which is still going strong and will be doing service in my second system, for this new dac I wanted something different than sigma delta variations.

Should get it in time for the holidays, am really looking forward to hearing it in my system.

I have the TotalDac d1 entry level model and couldn't be happier. I also invested in a higher quality streamer (Baets Revoltion) 

I started my digital quest with RME then Bryston

It was night and day difference between the 2 systems.

If your single source for music is streaming I would suggest you focus on maximizing that part.

A DAC with external power supply

And a dedicated streamer with external power supply

AES INPUT OR Is2

Good luck

@bunkertoy I had Bel Canto DAC3. Used it with USB from Mac Mini and tried it with CD transport as well. Not a bad DAC but modern DACs in the same MSRP price range are better for the most part. 
 

If you want to try an R2R DAC I’d recommend stretching it out to Denafrips Terminator or Holo May. At this point these two are established and have service centers in the USA. I would skip LAiV - it is too new and there are reports of boards going bad. Besides, it’s overhyped. Giant killers are extremely rare in the world of DACs.

Also, in the $3000 price range you have vety high quality delta sigma or FPGA DACs on a used market. In example Chord Higo TT2, Bricasti M3, Bryston BDA3, etc. Lots of non Chi-Fi choices…

I really don't take any of the YT audiophile "reviewers" seriously.

My observation is the YouTube reviewers never give a negative review.  However if you’re spending $2k plus on most any piece of modern electronic kit, you’ll get something good, maybe not “great,” but certainly very good. System synergy is also important, as is room acoustics and speaker placement along with good, but not necessarily expensive interconnects and cables. 

That being said, I am very impressed with my Pontus II 12th fed by an IRIS DDC. Now that Denafrips is putting out 15th anniversary editions, you should be able to pick up the combo used for $2k. USB your streamer source to the IRIS then I2S to the Pontus II NOS, you’ll love the smooth detail and huge soundstage! 

I trust written and video reviews at least as much as I do anonymous postings on message boards and forums. I do research using a number of different sources, including written and video reviewers, and forums, to reach a conclusion. That said, I've had a Holo May KTE DAC for about 3 years and am very happy with it. 

I have a Bryston DAC3.  It was the first DAC that I encountered where usb was not a compromise.  You should be able to pick up a used one in your budget range.

  I get the point about wanting to audition in your system and the difficulty of doing this with used.  Is there a bricks and mortar dealer by you that will allow for a short home audition on the stuff that they have accepted in trade from other customers?

I have the Weiss 501 MK2, wonderful DAC.Comes with room corrections and different settings if needed. Had the chance to audition many DACs dealers telling me you should try and would never trade in my Weiss. Music is played as if you’re in the studio, never bright, not coloured and extremely detailed and clear sound.We all have different tastes and different hearing but for me after many trial and error’s with my sound system, my present setup is best and most rewarding to my taste. 

Unfortunately, most audio reviews are based on the hype a company can generate through paid advertising revenue to the magazines their equipment is reviewed in. 

Not only is this a conflict of interest,  it also means that in all likelihood unless you're advertising in an audio magazine (which is usually expensive) you won't be able to get your audio gear reviewed.  

Years ago I spoke with the owner of a company that designed and manufactured a fine line of digital to analogue converters, one of which I owned.  When I asked him why I had never seen any other reviews of his gear he lamented that he could not compete with larger companies like Mark Levinson, because they had much larger advertising budgets which ensured that not only would their gear get reviewed, but that the reviews would always be positive;  since the magazines would never give up their advertising revenue. 

As such,  those who seek to purchase audio gear must rely on their own ears and when possible travel to an audio store that carries the equipment they are interested in purchasing.  It's also a good idea to find a store that will allow you to demo the gear in your own home system so that you'll know whether or not you will be satisfied with the equipment you are thinking of buying, once you hear it in your own system. 

To thine own ears be true. 😉

The Border Patrol R2R Dacs are on sale, for around $1473 to $1975 based on the number of inputs. The GSII Schiit Yggdrasil OG is $1699. Both of these sound great and are made in the USA. 

NO you cannot trust anybody on PooTube!

They don’t even have the experience to review anything 2 channel except headphones! That’s all I can trust them to listen to.

At your budget nothing is going to make you happy just use your DAC now and love your amazing system.

USB out from M1 MacBook Pro to Teac nt-505 to Yamaha a-s2000 to La Scalas…sounds great to me…also enjoy SMSL m400 and Topping d90…

There are a lot of videos for  DACs.  I have had good experiences with the recommendations from Hans B. And New Record Day for DACs along with Erin and Audioholics for speakers etc. 

 I’ve tried 10 DACs including the ones built into my Rotel preamp and CD player.  My budget is $2K US.  The best to my ears in my system is the Holo Audio Cyan 2, which is what I’m using in my main system.  It is only a DAC so you need a separate streamer.  I’m using the Innuos Zen Mk3 connected with a Pine Tree Audio USB cable.  It was about $1300 delivered US.  The May is supposedly even better but beyond my budget.  
 

I know it can be overwhelming but my suggestion is to enjoy the journey, trust your ears and stay within your budget.  Upgrading, tweaking and trying different components is a great part of this hobby for me.  Good luck and please let us know what you decide to do. 

Lampizator or Merason DAC1 second hand even if not R2R.

To the point made by @dz13, there is a used (slightly modified) Singxer SU-6 DDC on USAM now for $325.  That would give you the (potential) benefit of reducing jitter while allowing you to use any type of input format into whichever DAC you end up with.  At your budget, you might consider making sure your server/streamer set-up is optimized first (maybe try an optical connection as mentioned previously) and then save for a DAC at a slightly higher price point of at least $4K where you could add the LTA Aero and Mojo Audio Mystique Y DACs to your list (both available with generous trial options).

You might add the Gustard R26 or a Mojo Audio to your list. 

@bunkertoy

Sorry-- I assumed you were located in US.

You might ask TMR whether there are complications regarding shipping to Canada.

Reputedly, the Pontus 12th has more meat on the bones than the new Pontus 15th.

At the end of the day, in answering your original query...

No.

Different rooms, with equipment different than yours....and the wrong pair of ears on the sides of a different skull.....

Best guess at best;  yours is the final arbiter...

*L*  You're poisoned, go find your remedy..... ;)  Good luck and listening, J

Try this one on a home demo. It does need a lot of break-in so play it 24 x7 before rendering judgement. It also has a terrific USB input which I stream into using a Sonore OpticalRendu. That is fibre optic converted to USB.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Made in USA

The LIM is the one you want for the warmth. It is an excellent DAC for that type of sound. I am going to convert my LIM to the MIB also on that link. I now want a more neutral DAC.

BTW - if you want to move up to a better DAC at a lower price check out the Yggi+. My $2.8k Yggii+ OG (no longer available) replaced a $15k DAC and the Yggi+ is so much better than it. Do not assume more money makes for better gear.

If you want to go up to a more expensive Dac give Mikey at 11stereo a call…he is very honest and won’t sell you something you do not need..

Weiss not bright. I have it paired w/ a Grimm MU1. Weiss has gobs of adjustments too. I tried many but don’t use. 

What speakers do you have?

with your budget you won’t hear a difference….