dCS Bartok Apex vs McIntosh DA2 - Trouble Hearing the Difference

you have two issues Mcintosh is not as resolving as other brands and transparent tends to be a bit rolled off, t/ry a set of Wireworld or Nordost 

second how are you testing try playing 20 sec of a track note volume and swap the Dac and note what changes.

Dave and Troy

Audio Intellect NJ

jasonbourne71

So why do you scoff at $20k for "nuance and finesse"?  Do you not believe that an expensive DAC MIGHT sound better than a Qutest, OR can YOU not afford to spend ridiculous money on hifi components?  I've got a friend who put over $300k into building a race car.  No one laughs.  I spent well over $250k on my 2-ch stereo rig that I enjoy very much.  So are ya still LOL-ing?  Why?

Most geniuses I know who laugh at audiophile systems do so, perhaps, because they never learned HOW TO LISTEN.  OK, I'll acknowledge right up front that there are many clowns with more money than brains who have no legitimate idea why they spent 6 figures on a home audio system....we'll just kick those guys to the curb right up front.  However, to your apparent surprise, "nuance and finesse", while it might be better defined more specifically in technical musical terms, is something that audio pros (ie, Kevin Gray, Bernie Grundman, etc) have developed in their listening skill set, and some audiophile types have made it their business to FURTHER DEVELOP their listening skills to the extent they truly CAN appreciate the "nuance and finesse" they can hear in a particular music playback system.   DON'T LAUGH AT WHAT WE SPEND WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW HOW WE HAVE JUSTIFIED THE EXPENSE.  

Lastly, we all choose to spend our money differently.  Some guys spend money on fast cars, motorcycles, luxury jewelry/gold medallions, 50cal rifles, and maybe even great drugs and clean hookers and others spend the big $$$ on "boring audio".   

@verdantaudio  - Good suggestion, but the Bartok is actually serving as both streamer (through Tidal Direct) as well as DAC. So it’s really Wiim & DA2 vs Bartok. 

Well, you could pack up the Bartok, ship it back to Bartok's maker within the return window and get your 20k back.

Tell him....."It's not you, it's me....I need a li'l time, a li'l space just to find myself y'know..."

Possibly Mahler. I think the OP would be wise to read GoldenSound's review for further insights.

@rwwear 

there was a long thread devoted to the dCS tactics here very rebut I couldn’t find it just now.  Perhaps dCS threatened Agon and got it removed 

dCs got a negative review and threatened a lawsuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3QwCSqWsBU

I’m setting up my high end system this weekend and trying to get it to work w the furniture (ugh) in the room. I know not context of your string but your room looks so cool, that I thought I’d ask. 
 

Q what is distance between your Focal speakers and what is distance to where you sit?
 

Q Did you move either around or out of room for that set up?

Q Is it adventagous to not have furniture in corners?  I’ve got a chair in each for extra sitting. 
 

thx. 
 

tom Y

@mdalton 

I like HiFi News, but the typical issue contains pages of glossy dCS advertisements.  They also tend to give extra love to UK audio companies

I agree the DA2 is incredibly good. I have a C53 and it took sonore optical streaming and Ayre qx5 to beat it

Look at the $7400 T+A 200 dac that is pretty much the standard under $12k 

land personally think it sounds more natural then the Bartok Apex which I heard side by side ,Yes better the the Holo springs  May dac,,as well as Terminator+ 

and mola mola. That’s how good it is and even has a very good Analog resistive 

ladder preamp. The T+A200 dac is a Best Buy , check out the Many reviews 

then get  a dealer to send you one ,and you can get close to $1k off if you shop around ,and Has HQ player built into the architecture.

There is something wrong with your cables or not using the same cables exactly 

It s not even close McIntosh has Never done digital well Ever 

ams, preamps Yes .

@jeffreyw I wouldn’t doubt you for a second. However I’ve owned preamps and amps of various degrees of transparency and I’ve heard it first hand how an amp or preamp can diminish the differences between changes in upstream components or cables. Anything is possible in this hobby. All part of the fun!

@jastralfu 

pretty sure my theory is right (it’s the DAC spec).  look at Mcintosh-provided specs on MA252, which doesn’t have a DAC.  There, for “SNR -Power Amp Input” they show an “N/A”.  Regardless, you don’t really need - or want - to reconcile the two.  As i said, a reliable 3rd party allows you to compare across brands, and is probably more likely to be accurate, for obvious reasons.

@mdalton thats certainly an impressive resume. I don’t discount his findings I just don’t know how to reconcile his measurements with the specs from McIntosh. They might not be the same thing. I certainly don’t have the background nor have I read enough on my own to know any differences.  Thanks for the link though it was an interesting read.  And sorry OP for hijacking your thread.

@jastralfu 

here’s a link that gives some insight into the testing regime at HiFi News:

PM bio

@audphile1 

Interesting observation! My DA2 is in my C2700. I also have an Aries Cerat Helene DAC in the mix. The AC is leaps and bounds better than the DA2, but I wouldn't have sought much more if I had never heard the AC in the system. I know this sounds paradoxical, but the DA2 is just that good!

@ripordaff

I love your room. Do you allow people to bring red wine into this room?

I like amplifiers from McIntosh but don’t like any of their processors. They don’t like selling tube line stages without phono stage for some reason. They cram so much stuff into these processors and integrated components. You don’t know what you’re getting..

If you’re playing around with an expensive Bartok component I would consider getting a nice line stage preamp to use within your system. And then you can do all kinds of component comparisons without worrying about contamination from some crazy integrated processor. I use an av processor from nad with a line stage added on top of it for 2 Channel listening.

Also the streamer being used may not be the greatest in the scheme of things and I saw a comment up top it could be a serious bottleneck basically negating anything of quality that gets involved with it. Although streamer may be perfectly great I don’t know. I use a lumin X 1 streamer dac which I find ideal because I hate dealing with separate dacs all the connectivity issues that goes along with it.  lumin does a great job incorporating these things together and it's got a separate power box which always is a turn on

Paul Miller of HiFi News is one of the most respected people in the industry.  Has been doing measurements on gear on his custom modified test equipment for years.  His stuff is by far the most reliable and consistent in my experience.  You should reach out to him if you want to understand better.  I am not an expert, but I wonder if the manufacturer publishing the SNR “at input” isn’t actually giving you their estimate of the DAC SNR.  Regardless, when comparing across different brands, always best to use reliable 3rd party estimates so you’re seeing apples to apples.  

@mdalton I saw that in the review but I don’t see those numbers reflected in McIntosh’s specs, I see 114db for the amp.  Just not sure where the reviewers are getting their numbers.

@jastralfu 

lab reports section, reads wtd S/N ratio (DAC/Amp, 0dBW) 111.0dB / 87.4dB

 @mdalton having just read that review I’m not sure where that amp SNR is coming from.  The MA9500 specs read as 114db for the amp SNR. What am I missing?

If you think about signal-to-noise ratio as a proxy for how resolving a piece of equipment is - recognizing that this may be an oversimplification, but useful nonetheless - then the attached HiFi News review might provide insight:

McIntosh MA 9500

Notice in the lab reports section that while the A-weighted SNR of the DAC2 is 111 db, the SNR of the amp is only 87.4 db.  So while the SNR of the Bartok Apex is about 117 db, I think, consistent with what some others have suggested, the Amp may not be sufficiently resolving for you to hear much of a difference.  For the record, I do not believe all you need to know about a DAC or amp is SNR - don’t want to get flamed! - but it is a very helpful data point, particularly when we talk about low noise floors, highly resolving dacs and amps, etc.

I've never heard anything from DCS, But I have a C2700 preamp with the DAC2 board in it feeding Mac mono blocks. I also have/had a Chord Dave in my system. What I can say is the Mac DAC2 is better then many may think for the money. It punches well up into the much more expensive DAC range. But the Dave did show its limitations quite easily. The Dave has much better resolution, separation of instruments and bigger, wider, deeper sound stage. Its quite apparent when switching between the two. doesn't take an audiophile to notice.

If the DCS is not apparent from the start its just not that good IMO. Regardless of price at the levels we are talking if its not immediately apparent send the DSC back its just not worth what they are asking IMO. DCS has fallen back on their laurels in recent years from what I read, in my limited opinion of course. 

Last note; new mac sound is not old mac sound, its not warm and mushy as people seem to think, and have commented on.  

anleysenvorst

1 posts

08-06-2024 at 02:50am 

I have got the MolaMola Tambaqui and the Meitner MA3. I have sold them both when I heard the DA2 in a (now my) C2700.
 

Either the DA2 module is just simply phenomenal or McIntosh preamps and integrated amps homogenize the sound due to lack of transparency to such degree that all DACs connected to the McIntosh components sound the same. I’m starting to suspect it’s the latter. If your preference is for this kind of approach and you’re satisfied, good for you!

Good question @mahler123  😀

Has the OP been contacted by dCS legal department yet?

I have got the MolaMola Tambaqui and the Meitner MA3. I have sold them both when I heard the DA2 in a (now my) C2700.

I just added a SMSL SU-X to my ma352 today. It was only 1k and measures better than most other DACs so I said why not, if it’s a dud I didn’t risk too much money relatively speaking. Well, using the Node as a streamer, I got amazing performance out of it, and I say the sound quality increased at least over 20 percent than using the Node alone. I am running SF Olympica 2 speakers.

Also, I’m running XLR audio cables from Amazon, they made a significant improvement also. These no-name, cheap Chinese audio companies are seriously holding their own. This SMSL SU-X sounds better than a 4k Wandla set up , and the SU-X even has a tube mode. Using tube mode, with my integrated tube amp, and SF speakers, I am in total audio bliss now. So satisfied. Thank you SMSL for not ripping us off and giving us world class performance!

My Dad has a 8950 with DA2 card and it sounds great will USB, Coax, eArc...no need for optical in his setup.  

It's all in the implementation.  Look how many DACs use the ESS chip that is in many devices,  Mac uses 8 of them.   That DAC is no slouch.     

My Cyrus Amp uses the same chip and I think it sounds really good with its internal DAC, I sold my RME dac that I had planned on using with it.   The internal DAC is that good. 

The Eversolo A6 uses the same chip I believe or something really close.  Sounds good through it's XLR and RCA but sounded a lot better connected to the two amps mentioned above via digital.

@ripordaff awesome room man! With that said, those chairs blocking the speakers are a potential problem. That could be contributing to why you don’t hear the difference in DACs. But the main reason is you’re not giving yourself enough time to acclimate with dcs before you switch back to DA2.

Also, and this will probably ruffle some feathers, that McIntosh amp is not on the level of your speakers. You’re not realizing the full potential of the Focals. Amplifier is an extremely close second in contributing to the final presentation to the speakers, if not as equally important. 
 

@ripordaff 

I have the DA2 in my C2700. It is incredibly good for the money, and I do not doubt that it will give Bartok a run for it. I would try a different DAC since the Bartok is highly overrated. The Bartok originally sold in the US for $13K and then rose to around $17K with no improvement in hardware other than software updates. Then, they add an additional circuit board and charge $$$ for the same case. Brilliant marketing!! BTW, I don't care for DCS; it presents as very sterile and non-musical. 

Also, I must sat Mcintosh is a wonderful company to deal with. Actual employees who care will pick up the phone and give you straight answers in my experience. I am concerned about Dcs and their threat of suing a young YouTuber for giving a negative review - it shows a lot about what kind of company they are to even entertain doing something so incredibly asinine 

Similar to the experience of fishagedone, when in for service I  auditioned a dcs bartok with my heritage Mac system (2125 amp, C28 preamp, XR5 Mac speakers) it was very nice and detailed. However, I later purchased a Bluesound Node X and after the break in period it was an extremely close second.  As my dealer and others suggested the Node X punched way above its weight.  Not suggesting a Node X for you but saying that the extra dollars may bring a minimal improvement.  In my system it was finding the right room, having the correct speaker placement, as well as adding a Rel S510 subwoofer, that has made it as close to audio perfection for my ears as I desire.

I am not surprised, I auditioned DCS Bartok and compared to Hegel 590 internal DAC, and there was no improvement. I ended up getting Denafrips Terminator plus. And I am happy. My source is Bluesound. Bartok is not very good in my experience. Also a lot of glitches occurred when transitioning from one song to next one. I was not very pleased.

I think it's that crappy transparent  cable thats making it so you can't hear the difference, they use cheap OFC wire which is the worst wire for audio get some OCC single crystal wire It's far superior to anything OFC at any price.

@verdantaudio  - Good suggestion, but the Bartok is actually serving as both streamer (through Tidal Direct) as well as DAC. So it’s really Wiim & DA2 vs Bartok. 

You might consider the WiiM Pro a bottleneck.  It is a great value at $150 but I am just guessing it may not be up to the task of giving all the information required to get everything out of the Bartok Apex.  The WiiM is a great value and sounds great for what it is but it is not the be all end all in terms of sources

If you are going to pit the Mac DAC against something closer to the price budget, consider the new Linear Tube Audio DAC.  It is very reasonably priced and is winning accolades for value and quality. I believe that DAC would be a very different sound from your current setup. I have a much more expensive DAC setup but that would be a quick way to do an A/B comparison.  You will need a separate streamer and high-quality USB cable, like an Innuos Zenith, but you'll still come out way better than the dCS unit.

I have several amps that I play around with. I found that the Mcintosh MA352 is very particular to the source, or the streamer and DAC. For instance, running the wiim pro I almost gave up on the Mcintosh and it sounded as poorly as you described. With the Bluesound Node and an upgraded external DAC, it sounds amazing . It takes time to get the right synergy, but there are amps out there that will be more airy, detailed, holographic, better transient response; but at same time there will be a trade off in richness, warmth, rounded notes - and those hyperdetailed amps can be a little screechy at times on violins, with harsher treble causing hearing damage and ear ringing. The Mcintosh is an amazing amp and I will always keep one in rotation, right now the Ma352 is my primary amp for violin concertos and orchestral music. Don’t get me wrong I love hyperdetailed , holographic, fast amps, and addicted to that sound too, but I think it’s really a trade off and side moves after a certain spend.  Keep in mind, the amp is only a percentage of the sound signature, you can still make major adjustments with the source , DACs, cables, and of course speakers. So it's kind of hard to paint with a broad brush, everyone's system is different and can be made and tuned in ways that could be very specific to what you're looking for. 

I was a massive McIntosh fan for a really long time and owned a lot of Mac gear since 1998 or so…. I finally spent some time comparing McIntosh products to other hi end pre-amps and amps. I found Audio Research, Gryphon, Moon & Acuphase produced a sound that I much preferred. The Mac gear come out sluggish, thick, non-musical and lacking in almost all comparisons. Ask your dealer if you can take home a different integrated…? Maybe Acuphase or Moon or Gryphon….?? That’s where you’re gonna be blown away and start writing checks for outstanding gear that warrants the spend with dramatically different sound…. Not better….just different which sounds what you’re looking for.

have fun…!

Yeah, $20K for "nuance and finesse"! LOL!

Beautiful room and system! It looks as if the speakers are set-up for HT. Optimizing speaker placement for 2 channel is an entirely different ballgame. Very WAF and interior design unfriendly. Take a look at assorted Virtual Systems. Also, high-end components, such as the Bartok, offer nuance and finesse - not a completely different sound. Excellent feedback from posters above.

If you want to be even more surprised, order a Bluesound Node as your streamer. I was running a Wiim Pro into a MA352 and I found the Node was a lot more musical than the Wiim into the Mcintosh. On my Asian Class AB amp, the difference wasn't as drastic and both streamers performed admirable. 

You might try to avoid comparing them and spend some quality time (like days) listening to the music. If you are not really experience switching bake and forth and listening to the system instead of the music can be confusing. All the differences will reveal themselves in the music. 
 

One additional thing to note is that the dCs sound is pretty lean and detailed and can come off as very dry. You might want to audition something on the more natural side as well. But take your time. 
 

Strange. You say that there's not much difference, but then you mention three significant differences. Maybe you were looking for drastic differences.

Photos uploaded!

It could be that your McIntosh integrated is applying the McIntosh house sound to the Bartok.  I'd discuss that with the dealer.

There could be many other reasons why the Bartok doesn't sound better, but as long as it doesn't, there's no reason to spend 20k on one.  As long as your system sounds remarkable to you just enjoy it and keep your money.

Can you also post pictures of your setup in your virtual system page? It will add some more context. 

Room acoustics (untreated walls, tiled floors, etc.), overwhelming bass output (from subs or speakers) and speaker placement can affect how much difference you can perceive between components and cables. If room acoustics aren’t a concern, then..

When doing a comparison, based on my experience comparing DAC, don’t go flipping back and forth between inputs during one song. At a minimum listen to the entire song, make mental notes. Repeat the same with the other dac. 
Better yet, give yourself a whole day with dcs without listening to McIntosh inbuilt dac. Then switch over and listen to the same playlist. Give your brain more time to acclimate to one dac before switching. 
I heard a McIntosh DA1 dac and unless DA2 is some sort of a revelation, it can’t stand a chance against a better DAC, and it shouldn’t take dCS to beat it.