Does a record player make that much of a difference??

hi Josh,

there are levels of performance for turntable packages like you have, and also for the individual parts of the whole system; platter/plinths, arms, cartridges, phono cables, and even phono cables. there are not strict dollar values to these steps, as price and performance are not exactly linear, and also vintage choices blur the performance ranks further.

in a very general sense, if your package is around $2000, then the next general level might be a total of $4000-$5000. at that level you would find a more solid sound, lower noise, and more musical nuance.

but the biggest part of vinyl sound is the pressings. with turntables the media has a much larger part of what you hear than the hardware. you do need to get to a certain point where you get ’over the hump’ with hardware first, and maybe your current level is not quite there yet. but it’s better in the long run to focus on the best pressings, than on hardware. your collection should drive the hardware investment, not the other way around.

maybe look at the spinner + arm as the next big step for you. so not just the platter.

 

It really depends on the specific turntables in question, and how resolving the whole system is.  It shouldn't be as dramatic as a cartridge or speaker change, but TT differences can certainly be audible.  Whether those difference are better or not will be a matter of preference.  

I am a big fan of interchangeable headshells, to change my half dozen cartridges, to put a friend’s headshell/cartridge they may bring to hear their cartridge in my system, and in comparison to one of mine or another of theirs.

Spinner: I go for direct drive, heavy platter, to maintain speed and weight related to low frequencies.

Arm, I want very easy arm height adjustment, (various cartridges are different heights) like my Acos-Lustre GST801,

or my friends long and short Micro Seiki 505s.

Another friend has Technics wonderful epa-500 Base

 

here’s the full kit

Best bass I ever had was a Thorens TD124,

very heavy platter, very fine machining of bearing, combined with an SME tonearm; and Shure’s V15Vxmr Micro-Ridge with their no longer made beryllium cantilever. The stiffer the cantilever, the better the bass. The speed on the TD124 was a top controlled idler wheel, and a shield that moved, contrilling a magnetic force. Wait for it to warm up first, then, if a party, and more people changed the room temperature, re-adjust with built in strobe.

The bearing of the TD124 is very susceptible to vertical movement which is why I traded mine for ............

Next is the issue of a long arm, (check specs, some say 12" but may be 11-1/2" effective.

Next is two tonearms, say a MM on one, a MC on the other; or a Stereo on one, a Mono cartridge mounted/aligned ready to switch stereo to mono lp in a second.

I went nuts, too much time on my hands during covid, and ended uo with 3 arms

I can place all 3 arms while playing, no effective drag, and simply pick an arm/cartridge on my SUT with 3 inputs. You need to adjust volume when comparing.

..............................

Solidity, heavy platter, features make a big difference, that long arm is 12-1/2" effective. I wish it had a removable headshell.

The turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage, all make very large differences.

My general rule of thumb is the phono stage investment should be around the same as the Turntable and arm. These support getting the very best out of whatever cartridge you choose.

 

I was shocked over the decades as I kept upgrading my phono stage until it finally stopped giving disproportional benefits. 

Dear @joshindc : There are priorities/grades/item importance when " building " an audio system and for you can get good overall system alternatives to up-grade it you need to post which are the diferent system items you own and your MUSIC(sound preferences.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

My general rule of thumb is the phono stage investment should be around the same as the Turntable and arm. These support getting the very best out of whatever cartridge you choose.

 

This works for me too. My phono stage investment is a bit more than my TT/arm.

@joshindc What is Marantz TT16?

I got back into vinyl earlier this year.   I cleaned up an old Garrard Lab 80.    It was nostalgic at best....    but I enjoyed spinning records again.   I looked at a few tables around $1000 and I decided to bump my budget and bought a Sota Escape , Origin Live Silver Arm and Ortofon Bronze.      It is a great sounding table , worth every penny .

I am using Sutherland's entry level KC Vibe and am going to take advantage of my dealers trade up policy and buy a get the 20/20...   I'll put some more hours on my Bronze and eventually pick up a MC.  

I never really knew how good my records could sound until now.  I have a few crates of mint and NOS unopened records and after a long hiatus I finally have a decent analog rig.    Like a lot of us here I can't do it all at once but I am headed in the right direction hopefully. 

Phono stage most important. Turntable close second. Tonearm third. Cartridge last. IMO.

Once you hear air bearings, turntable or tonearm, there's no going back. DIY if your skills are up to it. Ditto for air gap caps in the RIAA circuit.

Good luck!

@joshindc

First of all, how committed are you to records. Do you have a large collection? The reason I ask is going to the next step is not cheap and if you do not go that far you will not appreciate much of a difference.

Turntables have to meet certain requirements to " disappear." You should never be listening to a turntable. A turntable must spin accurately at 33 1/3 rpm without adding any noise or resonance while isolating the record and cartridge from the outside world. The cartridge is a vibration measurement device and it does not care where the vibration comes from. Without a proper suspension a turntable can not isolate the cartridge from the outside world. 

The least expensive turntable that meets these requirements is the Thorens TD 1600. Up from there is the Sota Sapphire with your choice of arm. Then on to the more expensive Sotas, Basis, SME, Avid and Oracle turntables. The Dohmann Helix 1 is the cream of the crop. The difference sonically between all these turntables given the same arm and cartridge is really quite small. A few of them go out of their way to look flashy which adds to the cost. You will be thrilled to death with the Thorens. IMHO it is the best value in a high performance turntable on the market today. 

Thanks for all the interesting responses.
I feel I should expand a bit on my thinking for this thread. Turntables certainly look cool and are fun to handle. And they come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and you can pretty much spend as much as you want on one (although that’s true of all audio gear). With phono cartridges on the other hand, there really isn’t much to look at as they’re so small, and they’re also fragile. Phono pre amps also aren’t much to look at. But I would venture that the sonic differences/improvements to be had by upgrading one’s cart or preamp are far greater than those found from upgrading to a better turntable/arm. Could be wrong, but my point is, I think the reason record-loving audiophiles put so much more attention and money on record players vs carts and phonostages is because there is more to look at. Not that there is anything wrong with wanting a cool looking turntable… it’s just that for pure audio bang for the buck, I have a hunch that the other parts of the analogue chain (cart, phonostage, head amp) are more critical.

I imagine many of you would disagree :)

"Could be wrong, but my point is, I think the reason record-loving audiophiles put so much more attention and money on record players vs carts and phonostages is because there is more to look at."

What? How about because turntables cost much more, for commensurate quality, than either tonearms or cartridges?  That answers the "money" part of your hypothesis.  Whether audiophiles pay more "attention" to turntables than to other components of the vinyl chain is a matter of your opinion. Got some data to back that up?

You are speculating from your presumption. The turntable and its support is the foundation for everything further down the chain. While different cartridges may have wildly differing presentations, the turntable sets the fundamental characteristics of how well the transducer retrieves the music from the groove.

Volumes have been written…..my take is given competent speed, bearings, isolation and arm rigidity then the transducer is #1. Try changing one form of energy into another…. 

 

But…it’s a LOT of musical fun to go FAR beyond competent…..

my short answer:

the difference between an expertly made and engineered easily makes a big difference in performance over one thats not. 

among turntables that are expertrly designed engineered and manufactured the cartridge make an  immediate sonic difference and the table makes or can make  a much less noticeable difference. 
 

@elliottbnewcombjr great visuals and descriptions. 

Well I wil be able to tell you by the end of the week. I ordered a Mofi Ultradeck (should be here this Thursday). Coming from a ATLP120 USB, I did "upgrade" the platter mat to a Acrylic and stylus and cartridge to a ATML540 on the Audio Technica TT, the Anti skate never worked on it. I have a Outlaw Audio RR2160MKll for receiver and Dahli Zensor speakers with a Outlaw Audio Subwoofer. You can play frisbee with the AT platter, it's so light. I did order a set of AudioQuest Golden Gate cables for the Mofi deck. I have Champaign ears on a beer budget.

Everything makes a difference, unfortunately.

One big difference is isolation. I tired of tiptoeing around 40 years ago. Not interested in building a sandbox on a shelf.

It all matters.  I my opinion the cartridge has the highest point of diminishing returns, but you need to have balance among all the components.

My TT is the least expensive part of the system, though no slouch.  Phono Pre cost twice as much as the TT and the carts cost another 33% over that.  But there really can't be any weak link in the system from source to speakers and finding that balance and synergy is key.

 

Dear @joshindc  : " I think the reason record-loving audiophiles put so much more attention and money on record players vs carts and phonostages is because there is more to look at. Not that there is anything wrong with wanting a cool looking turntable… "

Obviously that you are totally wrong and with al respect you have no idea what you are talking about but in the other side is that's what you think your OP thread has no sense because you already have the answer  ! ! ! 

 

R.

Hi Rauliruegas. 

Thought the purpose of these threads was to have fun discussing our shared interest - audio. Or is it to prove how much smarter you are than everyone else?

Lighten up!

 

Well, Vinyl is my primary Source, so...

IMO: OP is correct: upgrade cartridge 1st.

Anyone wanting to get started with vinyl, I recommend this TT. (I had one for years). If they stick with vinyl, then move up. (what, in what order the OP asks)

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-lp120xusb

It now comes with a VM95 cartridge body, which accepts various interchangeable stylus including Microline or Shibata.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/line-series/at-vm95-series

The cartridge has a threaded body, only needs screws from top without nuts.

TT has a built-in optional Phono EQ, so it can go straight to any Line Level Input to start with any preamp with or without built-in Phono Stage.

Direct Drive, removable headshell, (useless speed control we are not DJs).

I definitely recommend buying the Microline Stylus, easily goes into the cartridge body, no re-alignment needed, no potential misalignment for a novice.

It has a lightweight platter, fuzzy platter mat, adjustable feet, nothing special there

......................................................

the VM95 cartridge body specs which relate to imaging are:

Channel Separation 23db; Channel Balance 1.5db. If you check MANY expensive cartridges, they do not have better separation or balance, and surprisingly MANY expensive cartridges are Elliptical.

Factory Aligned, Upgraded Stylus (no-realignment needed) this TT would sound very good, and I would expect the beginner would stick with Vinyl, IOW, not have a poor experience that Streaming is/was far better which happens to many novices.

.........................................

Now, time to move up:

1. Alignment Tools and Cartridge Alignment Skills MUST be acquired, by you, friend, nearby dealer before a cartridge body is changed (MM or MC)

2. The beauty of a cartridges’ sound is separate factor, subjective, but Imaging Capability involves comparable measurements.

I would first change the cartridge on this TT to get improved imaging, i.e. wider channel separation and tighter channel balance.

I always recommend this as a very good MM moving magnet cartridge to start with ($300). The cartridge/headshell combo gives you a spare headshell which will be advantageous later.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/vm540ml-h

Channel Separation is 28db; Channel Balance is 1.0db. The combination of wider/tighter makes quite a difference when listening to a superior recording. Again, MANY expensive cartridges do not produce as wide or tight imaging.

3. Move up to a Moving Coil Cartridge and Phono Stage for both MC/MM at the same time.

NOTE: Most people would upgrade the TT first, however, the sound will be improved to a greater extent by MC Cartridge/Phono Stage with MC/MM capability. Then the MC cartridge and Phono Stage can be used later with any new TT

3a. MC Cartridge: I recommend my choice, AT33PTG/2 as a MC start.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-coil/at33ptg-2

Channel Separation: 30db; Channel Balance: 0.5db. Combined with the advantages of MC technology.

I’ve compared it to my half-dozen cartridges, my friend’s cartridges played here, we all prefer it to the others. I’m never moving up to more expensive cartridges. I wore my stylus out, got another new AT33 at half price thru AT’s MC trade-in program.

3b. ANY PHONO STAGE: get return option, this is the most subjective move so far. Keeping it separate allows use with ANY change of equipment, and future upgrading a separate Phono Stage is independent of other equipment.

3c. OPTIONAL SETTINGS for future MC cartridges. Price definitely moves up, it might or might not be important, in my case, I had a MM Phono Stage I loved, so I added a SUT step up transformer with 4 MC optional x factors/impedances and PASS for MM use.

4. Finally: Better TT and Better Arm (OP’s Question).

4a. my recommendation: go for Direct Drive with a heavy base and heavy platter, superior isolation/leveling capability.

4b. Dust Cover. Surprisingly, many high end TT’s come with no dust cover. I cannot imagine having a superior machined Arm without a dust cover, keeps me up at night.

4c. Arm: go for a TT with an arm with removable headshell. This is difficult as so many upgrade TT’s come with Fixed Arms with pre-mounted cartridges (easy until you need to change the cartridge later).

4d.TT without arm, get/mount your own arm: this is beyond the scope of most, but a viable option if you or a friend or nearby dealer have the skills.

4d. Easy Arm Height Adjustment. Another good reason to get a TT without arm. Important IF you will have a few cartridges, their body height varies, a friend might bring a headshell with his cartridge, you might get into Mono LPs, ......

5. How you gonna keep/clean those LPs? New, Existing Used, new to you Used. Good luck with that, I stick with my manual scrub, frugal and quite successful.

@joshindc  : Well that's your porpose and cratinly no thread forum is to see who is more smarter.

For my understanding in analog we have LP's to listen through our ears not through our " eyes ".

I think that this forum is not just for FUN. Here already posted gentlemans that do not try to be " smarter " but truly experienced MUSIC lover(audiophiles trying in one way or the other to HELP not only to you but to any other audiophile intersted in the subject and nor mally  ( ate least me ) I post and read the thread post looking to learn and not for " fun " as is your target.

 

Only by " curiosity ": do you already took a " look " to the virtual systems of gentlemans that posted in your thread as: @mikelavigne ​​​@mijostyn ​@lewm ​@terry9   and others?

 

Well, just for FUN make you a favor and do it.

R.

Dear @joshindc  : " I just upgraded from a Grado Platinum MM to a Dynavector 20x2 ..."

 

It's obvious that as many of us you need to learn from other gentlemans that are not smarter that you but only have more experience than you.

 

Grado is not a MM cartridge. Try to find out by your self which kind of cartridge design has Grado. It's the way to learn.

 

R.

@joshindc 

Quite the contrary. A tonearm am cartridge can not perform at their best on a less than optimal turntable. Making any mechanical device "disappear" in the context of a very sensitive vibration measurement device is not a chore for the 1/2 hearted. 

Over the years I have managed to expel the the appearance devil out of my person having bought what turned out to be inferior devices that looked cool. I could care less what a piece of audio gear looks like as long as it is well crafted. The Thorens TD 1600 is a great example of that ethic. Thinking this way will save you a pile of money in the long run and most probably the result will be a much better system. 

Almost nothing I own and use (other than cartridges and tonearms) is in its OEM form. Therefore, most components have extra holes drilled in them, parts hanging out in various orientations, etc. If they were beautiful to begin with, they are no longer beautiful. Functional only. I could not care less. (Fear not, Raul, I have not messed around with the 3160.)

Another thing to consider is wear. TT do not wear out. Tonearms do not wear out, but they can be damaged. Cartridges wear out and they can be easily damaged.

So, you can buy a TT for life, a tonearm for decades, or a cartridge for a few years (or hours, if you are unlucky). A cartridge can only perform well if it is held in one exact position - and only a good tonearm can do that. I routinely adjust azimuth to 10 minutes of arc - and on a higher end Koetsu or Grado the differences are clear. Can a cheap tonearm do that? If it can’t, don’t bother with a high end cartridge.

IMO YMMV

Well I'm pretty sure some of these replies will have dissuaded the OP from posting again. Tough crowd.

dogberry i agree, some people try to make you feel inferior if you don't have a 10K or more system. 

Seeking out best pressings is more important than upgrading already good cartridge. The difference between pressings can be dramatic.

Of course, the table itself is more important than any other element of vinyl playback source, even more important than phono stage.

Tonearm cable is the most important cable in the entire system, don't forget to pay attention to it.

Michael Fremer did a comparison between two turntables using the same cartridge, the same tone arm, and the same phono pre-amp playing the same LP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdLbWQFdsPg

Have a listen to see if the differences are meaningful to you.

Lew - I initially blanched when J Carr suggested i remove the finger lift on the Triplaner….. we compromised and i put shrink sleeve on it with the heat gun….

@tomic601 I’ve been using a 4point11" & Safir tonearms without the finger lift and yes it sounds better. A bit nerve racking but worth it IMO. Please explain what you hear with the shrink wrapping on the lift vs no shrink wrapping?

Well - those are two great tonearms @sksos and as i recall Kuzma deleted the fingerlift off even the entry level unipivot for sonic reasons . I would say the lift damping via the shrink was more pronounced on my Lyra cartridge than w Kuzma…but i would describe it as less grain / haze and cleared decay.  - hope that helps.

i have significant seat time at a local dealer w 4 point and Safir….. just lovely execution and sonics….

Best to you

I added a finger lift to a few of the mounting plates of my Schroder CB. They are titanium wire and heat shrink. I can not hear a difference between modified and unmodified plates, but since I do not have two identical cartridges I can not do a direct AB comparison which is what is really needed. I do not use the lifter. I have a Little Fwend do the lifting at the end of the record and I cue the record manually. I use the lifter only as a block when I am working on the adjustments. To cue a record manually you have to have a finger lift. The physics of the situation are not that difficult. The cartridge is sitting on a suspension, the resonance frequency of that suspension is around 7 Hz. Nothing above about 20 Hz gets to the tonearm through the cartridge. Then there is airborne vibration. I use a dust cover during play that greatly attenuates the higher frequencies that might affect the finger lift. If the finger lift is stiff enough, it's resonance frequency will be above the audio range and will be damped by the heat shrink. A good test is, if you can bend the finger lift by hand it might be a problem, if you can not bend it by hand it will be OK. 

@tomic601 

"cleared decay." ?? I have hours of seat time with the Safir on a suspended CS Port. It sounded like the record to me. The turntable did not sound at all. For those of you considering a CS Port you have to take into account the very large around 14" platter which can make fitting a short tonearm a real party. I would not go below 10". The CS Port also has a very unique feature. The surface of the platter is ground concave. You can see it easily if you put a straight edge across it. The CS Port comes with a very heavy record weight. This presses the record into the concavity in a similar fashion as a reflex clamp. It also presents the record to the stylus at a slightly different angle. Azimuth should be adjusted to account for this. 

Mijo, you have a CS Port and Safir?

Tomic, I’ve used my TP without and with the fingerlift(s). I use the plural because Herb Papier ( the original inventor here in Wheaton, MD) used to supply two, one with and one without threaded holes. I find the former one to be indispensable for mounting cartridges that don’t have threaded holes. I’m using that one with a Nagaoka MP500 right now. I’ve never heard a difference with vs without the fingerlift, and adding heat shrink would only add mass at the headshell; I think the metal parts would still resonate if in fact I cared to worry. One reason I don’t worry is that the fingerlift is tightly coupled to both the headshell and the cartridge. Thus I think it resonates as part of the net effective mass of the ensemble and only alters the resonant frequency by virtue of the tiny added mass to the whole. But that’s just my way of thinking.

Just for any neophyte to know, there is a school of thought against spring suspensions and especially against the use of a dust cover during play. But you should experiment and decide for yourself. I definitely agree that TT isolation is important but not with springs.

 

I'd say it depends on the rest of your system. Somebody with a relatively inexpensive setup might not be able to tell the difference between TT's, but somebody with a more resolving one could hear a large difference. Same would go for carts, I'd think.

MM cartridges can be great - I've got a Clearaudio Charisma MM; it's not cheap at $2000 but it sure does sound excellent.... 

Clearer decay….clearly my observational powers don’t emphasize spelling… regrets.

I think a more appropriate model for the headshell block / fingerlift / armpipe interface is to think about it as two blocks with a tuning fork hanging off one block… damping the tuning fork vs the effects of adding mass probably better explain the increased effect on the Lyra vs Kuzma carts. The thing about models is they are wrong…but by how much ?

but these are subtle things…almost…ephemeral ?

Lew my TP 7 mk2 has a single screw that attach it to the cartridge block.

"Lew my TP 7 mk2 has a single screw that attach it to the cartridge block."

I will go to the TP webpage and hope for a photo of a modern TP, because I don't get a visual image from your sentence.  I bought mine from Herb himself back in the late 80s or early 90s. I happened to be in Herb's house one afternoon, during the period when Tri was visiting him to learn how to build the tonearm. I was there to have Herb re-wire my TP.  In any case, the nonremoveable headshell on my older TP is slotted as per usual.  Then one used either of the two fingerlifts such that it sits atop the headshell with the cartridge bolts extending from below up through the slots and then through the threaded or non-threaded holes in the headshell, depending upon whether the cartridge itself already sports threaded holes.  You almost have to use one of the two fingerlifts to get a nice sturdy mount.

cartridge>phono amp>tone arm>TT

Cartridge and tonearm should be viewed as a single unit. Tonearm makes a major contribution (or subtraction) in relation to the SQ perceived to be due to the cartridge alone. I’ve proved this over and over again in my home systems. So I would not insert “phono amp” between cartridge and tonearm in order of importance.

@lewm Tri is a gem. See California system photos, set screw attachment visible. 

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/7100

 

I found photos of the current headshell at Triplanar. The finger lift is set directly into the side of the cartridge mount, not on a separate piece that also receives the cartridge mount screws. I personally wouldn’t worry about that resonating except as part of the whole, but diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks. Seems the OEM construction is already damped with some sort of black sleeve, heat shrink or other.

@ossicle2brain @joshindc Ossicle nailed it though I put phono-pre- first. The TT is the least important piece by far - it is simply a rotating platter and if it is isolated decently that is all you need. TTs with built in great isolation do tend to have all the check boxes (SME, Sota) and great arms. I always recommend to focus on the phono pre-amp first - aside from speakers. When both the phono-pre and speakers of excellent quality that match your acoustic preferences give you a foundation to build upon. System pre-amp with a great volume control system is next. On the phono pre-amp the must have feature IMO is recording industry based equalization selection (RIAA, Columbia, Decca) - otherwise the record and the analog output stage aren’t using the same expected equalization and you can’t correct for it without an equalizer.

acmaier, Unless you are listening to LPs from the early to mid 50s, most of which will be mono recordings, the importance of having all those equalization curves built into the phono stage has been regarded as overrated by most.  Testimony from recording engineers who were active in that early LP era suggests that most companies adopted the RIAA standard early on. Thus, you could say it is nice to have that flexibility, but it adds a costly feature to the phono stage that may be superfluous, unless, again, your collection is heavily biased to the early days of LPs. Also, you can put the phono stage first if you want; my only point was and is that the tonearm and cartridge form a unit that together determine the ultimate sound quality that we usually perceive as due to the cartridge alone.