Well you guys are tapping into my insecurities big time,,my therapist says I may have audio nervosa and while she recommends more pills I can't stop thinking about the swarm and getting flat response down to 20Hz. It should boost my testosterone as well.
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@atmasphere wrote:
Which Classic Audio Loudspeaker model are you using - the T-1.5 Reference? If so then these main speakers of yours have what effectively is a built-in sub with an 18" down firing woofer per speaker, in addition to a front firing 15" ditto. They adhere to physics alright with size, high sensitivity and large displacement area, and so by adding the two spaced Swarm subs by Duke you have 4 bass sources with the predominant role of the dual Swarms to acoustically smooth out the response, much more so than pressurization anyway - a clever approach. Actually the Swarms don't need to extend to 20Hz flat to do that, but it certainly doesn't hurt either. What I'm saying is this: most don't come with a pair of main speakers that like yours have the kind of low end foundation they do, and so your speaker setup is hardly representative. Rather it's typically the inverse scenario where the subs need to do the pressurization and extension down low, but similarly to the approach by you they could the leave their main speakers running full-range (at least ~40Hz extension is needed) and space out the (ideally large) subs to make for a DBA and to have proper low end fill and smoothness. |
I use the Swarm subs as well and can also recommend them. That despite the fact my main speakers are flat to 20Hz. That meant I only needed a pair of the Swarm subs to do the job. What I like about them is they are designed to sit directly against the wall to take advantage of the room boundary effect, which allows them to be compact while flat to 20Hz and out of the way. |
If you decided to get subwoofers, maybe consider Audio Kinesis The Swarm as multiple subwoofers very beneficial to smoothing out room modes. |
@sounds_real_audio Standing waves can cause bass notes to be cancelled in your room. No amount of DSP or room treatment can fix it since the amplifier power is being cancelled by the standing wave. But if you have a sub and especially if you have more than one, you can break up standing waves. Since bass in most rooms is entirely reverberant, you can use a mono signal for the sub if its below about 80Hz or so. This is because the 80Hz waveform is 14 feet long and by the time your ears have figured out its there, its bounced all over the room. Many recordings these days have bass well below 40Hz. You can spend a lot of money on speakers that are flat to 20Hz (like mine) and still not have proper bass at the listening position due to standing waves. Its a problem I had to deal with. The ear has a sort of tone control built in. If bass is lacking, even though the rest of the frequencies are flat, the system will sound tilted towards the highs. If there is too much bass the highs can sound muffled. So if you get the bottom end right, an immediately audible effect is the system will sound more relaxed and realistic. That is why subs are so important. |
This whole debate is just like a runaway train. l have never had a problem integrating a sub into my various set ups with multiple changes of amps and floor/stand mount speakers. Maybe by just good luck, or the hand of fate in buying the right models that by mere chance worked for me. The first was a near bottom of the range Rel Quake in 2004 with a meagre 100watt power handling. The step up in quality and soundstage led to a second buy to make a stereo pair in 2006. They certainly punched anbove their weight. Onward to a Rel T7 200watt after one of the Quakes transformers failed after 15 years. Surprisingly the experiment with the second hand larger sub paid off and it blended in effortlessly. Today l run two Rel T9i’s in the same sized room and l’m as happy as a lark. I know it’s all been Rel on this journey, but if all this was a pure chance success thing to go by…. Buy a Rel or two and always wire through Hi Level Input for two channel. I never went down the room treatments path as l was content with just correct placement. It’s been the right choice for me, and l’m never thinking of, do l need to upgrade again all the time. One thing l have learnt with well integrated subs is how much lower volume l need to listen to music. Lots of people will say subs mean higher sound levels and annoying neighbours. Not true. Without subs many with inefficient speakers play music too loud to reproduce the base they are missing. |
"I guess if I get a sub or two my quest for a very good sound system will be over...thank god." @sounds_real_audio HaHaHa... I hope your right and not just wandering in another tunnel in your Rabbit Hole. BTW, I haven't gotten motivated enough to approach the sub placement or settings with an acoustic analyzer as I am very satisfied with just putting the subs where I want them in general and tweaking the crossover and input levels to MY TASTE. I think you should consider adding the subs, enjoy the improvement and recognize that doing the acoustic analysis and attempts at room correction as a separate tunnel for another day. |
@sounds_real_audio wrote:
Reassuring, isn’t it? Well, arguably one can’t need what one has yet to experience firsthand. It’s how I got into this sub venture of mine, having an experience with a sub augmented main speaker setup that was something else than other setups with subs I’d heard, and one that actually had me convinced of the merits of using subs. It turned out to be an inspiration that had me build upon it in a direction that eventually suited my particular needs, and yet the basic parameters of high efficiency, large size and air displacement were untouched. That, in addition to a high quality DSP, amplification and overall integration is paramount, because you want a sub-assisted main speaker setup to be both more compared to a stand-alone solution as well as being a seamless sounding presentation at large. To be in a position where this outcome can be achieved I find it necessary, from above mentioned outset, to high-pass the main speakers just as you would low-pass your subs to properly "meet" them, preferably via the same high quality DSP with intricate filter settings incl. delay, slope type and steepness, gain, filter notches etc. in an outboard all-active configuration, and preferably via an outboard power amp that shares the same topology, overall quality and brand as that or the ones used over your main speakers. In other words: treat it like you would a single, coherent, physically uninhibited and discrete loudspeaker system per channel. Most subs as bundled solutions are asked to do from a physically stunted outset what ideally needs a much larger and more efficient package to maintain energy linearity down low. So, It isn’t only about handling room modes, acoustically and/or digitally via Digital Room Correction, but as well (and not least) accommodating blunt physics and size/displacement requirements. This, i.e.: the physical requirements, is the less popular aspect in audiophilia, even less so than using DRC, and it also goes to show why the sealed sub design (which is also the least efficient) is the most widespread solution; not because of the more or less blindly claimed improvement in impulse response, but simply because sealed subs are smaller, and because their (U)LF extension can be modified from a given enclosure volume - insofar the driver and amp permits. Using a DBA sub setup with multiple bass sources from smaller sealed subs can partially alleviate the physical inhibition, and for many the summed capacity here may be all that is required. From my chair though - again, once you’ve experienced the difference it can do - there’s no way around properly intergrated, large and efficient subs. Moreover, to my ears an asymmetrically placed and mono’ed DBA sub setup sounds like "headphone bass." Impressive it may be in some respects, and the evenness of the freqeuncy response it can produce is also a positive takeaway, but natural sounding bass it isn’t - or at least I haven’t heard it yet. I’d go to great lengths to ensure a symmetrically to the mains placed dual sub setup from above "recipe" is properly integrated. |
my 02cents. it's all about the music. what you believe is right i.e. sounds what you think is correct, is the final answer. all who posted above are correct as to their opinion, in the end, how does it sound to you??
For me, I am a bass man. however, I hate too much bass, and I don't what to hear music that sounds thin. Thats why i run 2 x subs but not the large ones as they over pressurize the room again, what do you hear??? that is the answer. |
with all due respect to any answers and not meaning to be disrespectful to anyone.... but there is only one answer to this question as driven in to me by one of my earliest mentors in this endeavor...and i've been at this quite awhile now...and realize i don't really know all that much, so i just go by my experiences so take it all with that in mind...but regardless.... the laws of physics can be manipulated in various ways, but will never change... the only way to properly reproduce low frequencies is to have a separately enclosed and powered subwoofer driver in its proper enclosure....of course placement and acoustics will dictate if the investment is worthwhile, as with all of this equipment...but looking for any other solution to proper low frequency reproduction....including mega buck and/or bigger speakers that have great bass, still don't provide the low frequency reproduction and impact that a separately enclosed and powered driver crossed over correctly for the system and the room...easy to prove, listen to any system with and without and you'll see..that's why many high end speaker companies also offer separate subwoofers, even with their highest end models...albeit some at ridiculous prices that a comparable Rythmik will be very close to their equal at much much less!...strangely enough high quality powered subs, even with dual xlr inputs that allow for great mixed system flexibility, aren't that expensive for even very high quality ..please don't leave the separate subwoofer out of your system if at all possible....evaluating any speakers at any price for low frequency reproduction without subwoofers is a necessary evil for all involved, but any and all speaker setups, bookshelf or floorstanding of any size will be so much more enjoyable with a properly placed and matched powered subwoofer..and leaving it off, no matter how much u think your bass is great, will never result in the same accurate low frequency reproduction as a separately enclosed and powered driver...and your enjoyment of music with well reproduced low frequencies present will be elevated to another level as you'll just then realize what u have been missing....even with your 5 figure floorstanders with several large woofers.... as always, just one man's opinion...yours may vary, as this is a sensitive subject for many "audiophiles"....as most want to justify why they don't need subwoofers, or just can't find a way to place one, or two or more, which may or may not be better...but again, u want proper low frequency reproduction get a separate subwoofer, at any system level, .... just be realize that there is a lot of source material with weak, little, or mediocre low frequencies, so don't blame the equipment if and when that and/or room issues lessen the ability to properly reproduce them! and...opinoins vary... |
Bass speed not really. Woofer and midrange integration yes. Also, getting the time domain an phase correct is very important for sub integration. 😎 Here is a good article on the subject See link below: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm Subwoofer bass myths see here Mike |
If you listen to interments you should easily be able hear the distinct timbre of plucked bass, or bass guitar - telling them apart for one, but also the tonality of a particular instrument. |
sounds_real_audio OP, I hope you did not suffer too much with all the above. I attempted to explain that all rooms regardless of the speakers' size will benefit greatly from a pair of subs however it seems to have ruffled some feathers.Good luck in your quest. |
Oh dear. To address your apparent complete misunderstanding would take too long so I won't bother. You do you. I provided you with the names of some extremely well informed people to read up. If somebody writes their thesis on this subject then I think it's fair to assume they know what they are talking about. Have you read anything from those authors? No I didn't think so. I will not respond to anymore of posts. |
Before you criticize, make sure you know what you’re talking about. The “slowness” of a subwoofer does not refer to when the bass notes start (attack), but rather to when they stop. In fast passages, the bass note fails to stop in time before the next one begins — that’s the common understanding of subwoofer pace. Changing the phase, even discretely, does not affect or control when a note stops. I always prefer and use sealed-enclosure subs, but that alone doesn’t help much. I also use bass traps to reduce ringing from standing waves; this helps, but only slightly. Ultimately, control must come from the source. I also tap the signal directly from the main-speaker terminals to take advantage of the main amp’s high damping factor. Again, this helps, but there’s still much left to be desired. The only thing I still hope to try before concluding this journey is a servo-controlled subwoofer. So again, make sure you understand why there is no such thing as a truly ‘slow’ subwoofer. Do you really know what a slow sub sounds like? My colleague once complained that a large 12" sub was slow and swapped it for an 8" sub to address the issue. But until then, why would I even need a sub? If you feel you need a sub as a panacea to achieve a good soundstage, then either something is wrong with your main system, or you are not optimizing it properly. |
@jsalerno277 ”So quick to criticize” Not at all intended. l totally agree 100% with your due diligence findings. l will however apologise for causing a misunderstanding. I just observed the three postings as the way l used to act and think in my job about the need to constantly revisit the training of due diligence with my staff. It was meant for light parody the importance of due diligence. Protecting employees and the thousands of customers who entered my store each week. Your mention of the glitchy site is right up there with due diligence. Audiogon have done nothing to stop the glitches on here since the pop up adverts appeared last month. Freezing pages, booting off the site, pages jumping and general slowing down timing out problems. Come on Audiogon, let’s have some due diligence to put this right. Sub WOOF WOOF WOOF!
Again apologies to jsalerno from me and l understand his frustrations regarding the three duplicate posts. |
@mylogic So quick to criticize. ‘Twas not intentional to stress a point or to create stress for you. ‘‘Twas not accidental for I made no error. The website gave me pop-up error System Error messages four times. First, when I started typing and a spell check corrected to LOL. Then when I hit SEND 3 times more, never getting a SEND confirmation, and not seeing my post after sending. I received a send confirmation after fourth attempt. This morning I received the same system error message. You will not get an apology for a website system error. If something like this upsets you, it’s time to reevaluate your need for mediation techniques or medication dosing. |
@jsalerno277 “After due diligence, including without limitation” Not a criticism by me…. Just an observation @ 01.02am 01.03am & 01.04am . Publishing your post 3 times is really re-enforcing “due diligence” @sounds_real_audio ”l guess if l get a sub or two my quest for a very good sound system will be over…thank god” If anyone can’t see jsalerno277’s logical points of view now, God help them.
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+1 I have built my system based on science/physics but also with an eye (ear) toward what sounds best. I find sometimes that by going for the flattest frequency response or greatest reduction in a particular room mode, I just don't like the sound so there is always going to be that subjective aspect. But as everybody says, as long as you enjoy it, it doesn't really matter. However, I believe you're more likely to enjoy it if you follow the science. And the science says that using multiple subwoofers will not only extend your frequency, it will also reduce your room modes. This to me is the greatest benefit. No more boomy, or at least less. Room modes are a tough cookie and to my ear, far more onerous than a less than perfectly flat frequency response. |
@gournard couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo. People think physics can be waved away like a fly lol |
How do you know when you need a subwoofer? After due diligence, including without limitation:
After due diligence, if you are left wanting for more low bass detail, more accurate timbre, more dynamic impact, better reproduction of bass micro dynamics, or more precise imaging and staging, you need a subwoofer. If you believe you system sounds like live, acoustic bass response as it is, you do not need a subwoofer. This is strictly subjective and based on your own perception. There is only one axiom, if your speakers only go to 30-35hz +/- 3db, a subwoofer will open up the sound stage. All other bass SQ attributes are subjective and you need to determine the benefit /cost ratio yourself
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How do you know when you need a subwoofer? After due diligence, including without limitation:
After due diligence, if you are left wanting for more low bass detail, more accurate timbre, more dynamic impact, better reproduction of bass micro dynamics, or more precise imaging and staging, you need a subwoofer. If you believe you system sounds like live, acoustic bass response as it is, you do not need a subwoofer. This is strictly subjective and based on your own perception. There is only one axiom, if your speakers only go to 30-35hz +/- 3db, a subwoofer will open up the sound stage. All other bass SQ attributes are subjective and you need to determine the benefit /cost ratio yourself
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How do you know when you need a subwoofer? After due diligence, including without limitation:
After due diligence, if you are left wanting for more low bass detail, more accurate timbre, more dynamic impact, better reproduction of bass micro dynamics, or more precise imaging and staging, you need a subwoofer. If you believe you system sounds like live, acoustic bass response as it is, you do not need a subwoofer. This is strictly subjective and based on your own perception. There is only one axiom, if your speakers only go to 30-35hz +/- 3db, a subwoofer will open up the sound stage. All other bass SQ attributes are subjective and you need to determine the benefit /cost ratio yourself
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@soix, +1 @lanx0003, I think you need to wind you neck in, you do not know what you are talking about. @OP, it's simple. All rooms regardless of size or shape need subs. It's not a case of it depends on the room, depends on your speakers or depends on what you listen to. All rooms will have modes which means you have problems. This is an anavoidable scientific fact. Anyone who doubts this needs to do their homework. What can be done? Well lots. Install some room treament. Have a look @tcutter's room as a fine example. Even with the extensive treatment seen in the photos and the admirably smooth response including envious RT60 performance subs will be needed. I say again subs will be needed. There is no other way to avoid peaks and nulls. If you are serious about your sound you should embrace measurement and fix the fixable problems. Most people now know about REW the free download so spend the equivalent of a dinner for 2 and grab yourself a mic. The subs should not be ported nor have passive radiators. Get sealed subs and insist on having variable phase to make dial-in easier. REL subs do not have variable phase only 0-180 phase flip which renders them very difficult to locate and properly dial-in. If people have 0-180 phase flippers I often turn down the job. One of my subs is a REL and I have hauled this thing all over the room and finally found a spot that works reasonably well. Now add to that ports which are additional bass sources that resonate at only one frequency and can't be tuned and you are adding problem upon problem. Somebody here said their sub is too slow! No such thing as a slow, boomy or one-note-bass sub. It's your room acoustics and poorly set up sub/s If there are peaks 20dB louder than the average SPL then it will obviously take much longer to decay and guess what? You get to hear the complaints mentioned above. It is simple guys, try reading stuff by Welti, Dr. Earl Geddes who wrote his thesis on this very topic and Toole, though I don't agree with everything Toole says. Avoid mindless ill informed posts from the likes of lanx and his ilk if you wanna move forward. |
I have owned many speakers over the years. There were a few that did not benefit from subs, but they were also cheap, off the shelf, great for dorm parties, speakers. With quality speakers I believe most benefit. My full range Acoustat 1+1 speakers are really wonderful on their own with jazz, solo, and small ensemble performances. However, with orchestral, pop, or rock they are just OK. Add a pair of subs (originally Vandersteen, but now Rythmik) and the details explode. It seems to me that hard to drive speakers really open up with subs and become more musical when the bass duties are removed. I use an SPL Crossover (active) to limit the signal to the mains. I have heard some amazing full range speakers that do not have subs. Surprisingly, many of the owners of these great speakers frequently add subs and are amazed at how much better they are. Subs need to be properly dialed in to make a difference (in my opinion both low and high pass crossovers provide the best benefits). Ultimately though, the end user has the final say. We are really here just to enjoy the music... I hope. |
You don't need a subwoofer you need two. I have a pair, the input level and crossover are set so I don't notice them. However, if one sub is offline I immediately appreciate the sound as flat or less dimensional. I don't know why but to me the greatest benefit of the subs is the effect on the upper registers, smoothing and airing them out/ opening them up. I use a REL wireless set up, it really helps with placement not having to be tethered with speaker wire, but it does need AC to power and the SMPS on the transmitter needs to be replaced with a LPS. |
Asked another way…. How do l know what l need? In retail the worst thing is to have a buyer who doesn’t know what he/she wants. If there is a dishonest seller, he will convince them of what they think they need. If the retailer is honest, he may well have a head banging/nightmare experience.
The same thing can sadly apply in real life situations/relationships. |
buy this, enjoy it? DONE! Sleep well. Edgar usually plays Cello, but it’s two Upright Bass this time (and they both play a little piano). This, similar is almost 50 years older https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Bass_(album)
My friend has a situation where he often wonders if he needs a sub, especially after listening here, but I usually conclude after listening at his place that he really has enough in his listening space. I brought this LP to his place, we thoroughly enjoyed it, I’m sure he slept better that night. Sometimes, just because you can doesn’t mean you should, it’s a blessing to be happy with what you have. i.e. Spikes below speakers. I didn’t think I gained, and in fact lost the ability for alternate toe-in, I gave my spikes to the same friend many years ago, he still uses them, I wish we could alter the toe-in for two listeners like I do when he or others listen here. https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11516
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Congratulations! I admire your persistence. I’m guessing you added a pair of T/5s (33 Hz)? I tried to make a single T/5x work in both my larger living room and a moderately sized master bedroom. Yes, the experience was better than with SVS subs in terms of coherence, pace, and texture. The sense of spatial cues was impressive, and I even told a colleague I wouldn’t go back to the pre-subwoofer era. Nevertheless, when the pace of the music picked up, the sub couldn’t quite keep up with the beat. My Buchardt S400 MkII, in a moderate space, delivered more articulate bass notes down to 35 Hz (-3 dB) effortlessly, even more so than with the subs. The Linton’s bass notes were even more nimble and agile. Of course, the definition of ‘coherence’ is subjective and varies from person to person. I enjoyed the augmented soundstage, but the trade-off in pace / texture held me back. At this point, with an enhanced soundstage from upgrading my digital front end—including streamer, DAC, and cabling—I honestly don’t miss the subwoofers. I feel I’ve already achieved what they offered. The extra reverberation and lingering decay from subs no longer appeal to me; I now prefer a similar soundstage with pinpoint instrument separation and clearly defined imaging. Well, to sub or not to sub—that’s the question with no definite answer. I can see why many people prefer having one(s), but I also understand others, myself included, who feel no real need for it. The last thing you should do in this civilized community is castigate people for having legitimate differences of opinion. You probably know who I am talking about.
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