Needing DAC Advice

I used to own the Freya+ and always found the passive stage a bit lifeless. While I liked to the tube stage, I did not use it often and generally used the buffered stage. I am not suggesting that is the solution, but it may help a bit. As for a DAC, I used to run a Gungnir MB and that was a good sound. I have recently upgraded to a Merason Reuss and it is the definition of musical. The Benchmark gear measures well, but has a tendency to be analytical. I am not sure of your budget, but read through mitch2’s excellent Six DAC comparison thread. Even if those DAC’s are not in your budget it will give you some ideas. 

What’s your budget, and are you looking for new or used?  Besides being more musical, what specific sound characteristics are most important to you?  More info = better recommendations here. 

I don't stream  ...  I'm vehemently opposed to paying a provider who profits by paying artists virtually nothing for their content. When I can, I buy physical media directly from the artists I want to hear. 

+ 1000

I have a Holoaudio May L2 DAC and like it. I don't have a whole lot to compare it to, but have never found it lacking liveliness. I purchased it based on YouTuber Goldenear's review, who infamously busted MQA. Also use a Pass power amp (XA25).

Budget is relative but let’s say $5k, new or used. As far as what I’m looking for in sound…rounder, richer, fuller? I have no shortage of detail now (and I like detail). But there’s a lack of character, for lack of a better term. Bass and mid bass is excellent, highs are great but the nuance around the midrange tones that form the character is lacking I think. The information technically is there, you hear it, but the presentation is…sterile maybe? 

zlone

I've read others posts who've mentioned the buffered stage was the preferred output on the Freya. I guess I need to try it. I've conspicuously avoided playing around with the preamp, just because it goes against my grain - graduate of the straight wire with gain school. 

Have you considered changing your listening position? Looks like tonality is greatly affected by distance to the speaker according to Stereophile (https://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-sl3-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2)

You can see that not only does the midrange dramatically shelve up at the closer mike position, but that the speaker acquires more presence-region energy at the farther position. What is true for the microphone will also be true for the listener. In small rooms, the balance of the SL3 will depend very much on how far away the listener sits.

Personally, I would take that budget and spend it on speakers. My preference is to make sure the electronics are as transparent as possible and find speakers that match my sonic taste.

I used to own Benchmark DAC 3 HGC and it is a matter of fact type of presentation - a bit cold and sterile. 
I bought a Bricasti M3 and sold the DAC 3 after comparing and confirming the M3 is much better. 
In addition I tried PS Audio DSD MkI (musical and engaging but noisy), Chord Hugo TT2 (pretty good but not as engaging…soundstage is deep but kind of between speakers), Bryston BDA-3 (good dac was a bit too warm for me).

I stream but I tried the M3 with Audiolab 6000CDT transport and was blown away by the sound quality which prompted me to get a very good and not very cheap streamer to match CD.

Hope this helps…

I think you're on the right track of sending the CD output to a high quality DAC.  Consider Jay's Audio CD + DAC.  Very musical and engaging.

My current DAC is the Rockna Wavedream Signature, which you should be able to find for around $5K if you're open to pre-owned.  It has a lot of inputs and could take the USB or SPDIF signal from the Schiit piece.  The Rockna is very lively and dynamic and will provide excellent detail.

I also have the Wavedream NET server, which has a nice CD transport.  It only does Redbook CDs though.  I have a small collection of SACDs and wanted to be able to enjoy those.  

I still have an Oppo 203 that I rarely use.  I purchased an HDMI to i2s converter and used the HDMI out on the Oppo to connect to the Rockna DAC. The Rockna has 2 i2s inputs, and I can use the Oppo as a transport into the Rockna DAC.  That combination was a huge improvement on the DAC in the Oppo.  

As far as R2R versus other types of DACs, at the end of the day it all depends on the implementation.  Having said that, I like the idea of FPGA which allows upgrades over time.  I have a MHDT Labs Orchid, which is a very "analog" sounding DAC and easy to listen to, but I don't think it would provide the type of listening experience you're looking for.

Try this

You should consider the new LTA Aero DAC as it will add a bit of that tube goodness/flesh on the bones you seem to be looking for without going too far or sacrificing much upper octave air/detail.  For an additional $149 I’d consider the Ray Tube Select tube upgrade as they’re relatively cheap and Michael Lavorgna preferred them to the stock GE tubes.  They offer a 14-day trial, which is really nice.  Here’s a review from member Terry London in case you haven’t seen it already.  Best of luck. 

https://www.stereotimes.com/post/linear-tube-audio-aero-dac-by-terry-london/

How does the transport and dac sound through your Primaluna if you still have it?  I'm guessing some of your issue stems from your preamp. 

Are you using decent cables?  I've used some that seemed to suck the life out of the music. 

I haven't heard the LTA dac that @soix mentioned, but from what I've read, it sounds like something you'd like. I use one of their preamps. 

I have the DAC3B and it is hot on top, but it is better than average for DACs in that price range, and I will always keep it around.

The Freya+ was a weak link in my system, and I only liked it with the uber neutral Benchmark AHB2 amp.

I now own the Schitt Mjolnir v3 which I use as a preamp. The headphone amp in it does not match my headphones. I like this preamp a lot more than the Freya+. Reading the threads on SBAF and Head-fi I think the Mjolnir v3 is getting a lot of love. It is a Class A device and runs very hot, It only has 2 inputs and no remote.

Saying all of that the Mjolnir is my 3rd best preamp. They Benchmark LA4/HPA4 and the Holo Audio Serene are preferred by a wide margin. These preamps do not impart much sound to the system so have some good sources and amp.

I now have the Yggi+ OG (not available) and I think is an incredible DAC. I also have the Yggi+ LIM and it is rolled off and works for a bright system. The opposite of the Benchmark DAC3B.

Later this year Schitt is coming out with a new DAC tech they are calling Singularity. I am going to convert my LIM DAC to this new tech. I was thinking of converting my Yggi+ to the MIB, but research has led me to wait for Singularity.

BTW - there is a great device called the GeerFab Audio - GeerFab this device will play your SACD’s using the DSD layer. If you Schitt URD has HDMI output, you can hookup the DAC3B via the D.BOB and get great DSD sound. I use a $200 OPPO as the transport to get the DSD layer. The DAC3B supoorts DSD better than the Yggi’s.

@yyzsantabarbara Singularity? Lol

I wonder what Schiit had in mind…gotta love their sense of humor!

Beware though…the DAC will either cause you to go into your final state and fall into a black hole, or, the DAC will become so intelligent that it will eventually create a second version of itself. If by that time you don’t fall thru a black hole you may end up with two DACs for the price of one. However they will be more intelligent than you and may give you some serious schiit on a daily basis.

I would stay away!

An R2R selection that you may like would be the Denafrips Venus 15th. Audioman58 sells them for well under $4000. If you stretch your budget to about $5400 you can get the Terminator 15th which is an outstanding DAC and build around it. It will tell you what is going on in your digital world yet is smooth, airy, huge soundstage and exceedingly well layered and transparent presentation. Either one would qualify as musically engaging. My Opinion.

Another Denafrips fan here (R2R). I have the Pontus 12th Anniversary and it's the best DAC I have tried. Only compared it to less expensive Benchmark, Schiit and a few others.

Get a really good active preamp. It’s the heart of a good system. I don’t think a DAC will exploit the rest of your system like a nice preamp. I’m talking a preamp that not a lateral move , far from it, something used that you otherwise could not afford

Your  DAC is no slouch, I have the Lab 12 , it’s a great DAC but the amp and preamp is more influential on the sound quality in my experience.

@yage I won't be changing my speakers. I like the sound of the SL3's. They've been rebuilt and they agree favorably with my Pass amps.

@big_greg I looked hard at Jays transport before buying the Urd. I convinced myself I wouldn't like the top loader but I'm re-thinking that. Also thought about the Pro-ject CD Box Rs2T but I don't have the real estate to accommodate the lid.

@soix the LTA Aero is now on my radar.

@sls883 I  tried the transport/dac with my primaluna before I got the Freya. it just can't drive the electrostatics very well. Just not enough horsepower to make those speakers work. My 105 into the primaluna driving L100's in my studio (near field) on the other hand, is very enjoyable.

@yyzsantabarbara If I crank the system pretty hard, say +90db, it sounds pretty darn good - doesn't seem to get louder just more open, more detail, and fuller. At wife-safe volumes it's rather meh. Interesting insight on the Mjolnir.

@fthompson251 I thought about picking up an Ares at one point  just to see if this was the direction I wanted to go.

@oddiofyl I don't think the Freya is the weak link here. From all measures and reviews, in passive mode it really is only volume control and input selector. 

I spent the afternoon reading @mitch2 excellent 6 dac test thread. I was already leaning toward Mojo Audio from my own research but a few other possibilities came out of that very thorough and insightful read. I think I listen for the same things as mitch2.

For reference, I run balanced interconnects, Signal cable silver resolution dac to pre to amps. I have some Cardas and Mogami on the way to try. 

OP audio mirror dac  has amazing reviews, Vlad the company owner has discount during holiday. He price $3500 maybe he can still sell it with this price.You don’t see them used. Owners are happy.

The orchid dac is also tube I think , same with audio mirror dac.

The DAC is not the weak link…. You are quick to spend $3 k plus on a DAC when you already have a good one. Demo a really good preamp in home and you will see what I’m talking about. 

TMR has some great preamps that you can build a great system around for the same money you are willing to spend on a DAC.  
 

Denafrips Terminator. Why? Because you want R2R DAC and not ESS.

@oddiofyl - yeah it is. ESS chip.

That's like saying all blue cars suck....  much more to be gained with a class leading preamp.   

The ESS chips are used in some good sounding DACs.   

The Singularity tech in the Schitt refers to their FPGA ideas for a DAC.

I wrote on other threads some comparisons of the Yggi+ OG to the $15k Lumin X1 that I owned. My OG was also recently at a headphone show and went head-to-head with the $15k or $20k Chord Dave and the Mola Mola Tambaqui DACs. The results were interesting, and I feel lucky to have bought the last Yggi+ OG available. This one is a keeper. Not a fan anymore of the LIM DAC I own. The MIB is supposed to be close in sound to my OG.

The next versions will be better. The guy designing these DACs is a superstar in this tech and has over 30 years of experience.

So you don’t piss in the wind and waste money and be disappointed, I would call Mikey at 11 stereo…he has great dacs for every price range and is honest…he won’t over sell you…for budget minded he has the New Ontech Dac07 with I have be using for a while it’s great for 2500, next up is the Audio Analogue AADAC for 5000…he has the Meitner MA-3 for 10k which I am thinking about upgrading to…

‘bottom line let the experience of a expert help you…

I would stay with a Pass Labs preamp, I sorta read through this post fast if you are considering a preamp…the Pass Pre sounds the best with my PassXA25 and First watt sit-4 going to the Volti audio speakers…

I have the Denafrips Venus 12th anniversary and the New Ontech Dac07, both going into the same streamer, Venus with 12s and dac07 with an rca cable ..the Venus has more grit and very detailed and dynamic where the New Ontech has all those qualities but more musical and smooth less fatigue but certain times of the day I love both..click of the Pass remote makes it easy to change dacs..all of us are very fortunate….

If you are running the Freya+ in passive mode then you are using the wrong Schiit. In that price range, you should switch to the Kara, a newer model that gives a much fuller presentation in the midrange than Kara+ in passive.

+1 on Merason Reuss. I just got the Dac 1mkII and it transformed my system into liquid gold. I was previously using my Chord Qutest or the dac on my Luxman CD 03, both of which were ok, but a bit dry. All of the Merason line I’ve heard are musical with fantastic clarity, a rare breed. 

@oddiofyl thanks for your advice. For ref, I'm not quick to spend any amount for anything. I research, I demo, I study, I seek advice, and then I think about it some more. I don't 'roll' gear. I tend to stick with my main stuff for extended periods (like decades) if I like it, as evidenced by the 25yr old speakers and 20yr old amps I'm talking about here. Good stuff is just good stuff. I have several other amps and sets of speakers, btw, I've been spending unreasonable sums of money on audio gear (professional and consumer) for more than 50 years. I bought the L100's I mentioned above, new in ~'72 when they cost as much as a new car. :-0 

I can't agree with you on the need for an active pre. If a preamp is doing anything other than adding volume (simplified explanation) or input switching, it's doing something wrong. 

The Freya+ is in your system at this time. It has 3 different gain modes of operation. Before shelling out a pile of cash, try the other 2 modes…

Simply one man’s opinion….

You may be the right customer for the Border Patrol. Musicality over technical prowess.

@trn

Give Mikey at 11 stereo a call, a Dac with the right volume control hooked directly to your amp sounds like a great solution for you. The Audio Analogue AAdac is a great solution for $5000 with a great volume control, it can be used as a preamp or not with a flip of a switch…

@wturkey +1

"As with the previous model, the passive mode offers a solid-state flavour with a more transparent and revealing sound albeit with less soundstage and harmonic bloom compared to the tube gain. The tube gain also impacts a more holographic sound stage with height and depth while also adding some weight to the lower frequency spectrum."

@g2the2nd Border Patrol does not appear to have a balanced output option. 

I've conspicuously avoided playing around with the preamp, just because it goes against my grain - graduate of the straight wire with gain school. 

While I don’t think it is the complete solution, I do think that an active preamp could improve the character of your sound. Many say it is the heart of your system and a lot of effort has been put into developing great reference, and active, preamps. 

@trn I didn't know balanced connections were preferred. The reviews of the Border patrol DAC speaks to what you are looking for. I heard one of their DACs at a show, but the set up was not very good for developing an opinion on the DAC's sound.

Good Luck.

For R2R dac you can’t wrong with a Pontus dac. I preferred it over the terminator plus. Don’t get me wrong the terminator is a good sounding dac. I just preferred the presentation of the Pontus in my system. However I evidently purchase the Holo May Kte. With this dac I no longer hear a dac. It simply gets out of the way. 
Just for reference,  I prefer a warm tone.,

I exclusively stream via ROON from my Auralic Aries S1 and recently purchased a Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE to compare against my Chord Hugo TT2 & Mscaler combo.

So, from FPGA to R2R - the Holo Audio in my opinion sounds fuller, richer and more natural, where as the Hugo TT2  presents fantastic detail although I have found it overly analytical, accentuates sibilance for my taste and ultimately too fatiguing for long listening sessions.
 

I’ve noticed with the Holo Audio I reach for the volume control much less than I did with the Hugo to tame the fatiguing highs.

Worth mentioning I’m currently outputting to a Willsenton R8 with rolled tubes although I have my eye on a Freya + to switch out the R8 and hook up my solid state Chord Electronics SPM 1050mkii power amp (200w into 8ohms)

I would suggest perhaps considering experimenting with the Freya + in tube mode and look at tube rolling, I significantly changed the sound signature of the R8 doing this.

Good luck!

You can grab the Yggdrasil OG as the GS model for cheap. It has an exuberance to it that I find compelling. I think it is far more satisfying to my ears than others near it’s price range.

the Freya+ is a really excellent preamp with the right tubes. After much experimenting, I found the combo of Ken-Rad VT231’s with blackout glass in the gain stage with smooth sounding RCA 5692’s in the buffer stage to be the overall best combo. 
 

I just find it a little hard to believe that, with a preamp with three very different modes of operation, the op has not even tried the other two, esp. the tubes.  Press the button!  Also, the Border Patrol DAC, which has been mentioned several times, and can be had for much less than a grand, could be the another answer to your problem.

Currently demoing a T&A D200 DAC.  The most substantial difference I've ever heard in a DAC.  I use an RME in my studio setup, and have familiarity with several DACs although never compared directly to this one.  I HIGHLY recommend you demo one if you can afford it (has built in PRE but you can use your PRE if you prefer)

It sounds extremely musical and full while maintaining extreme precision in the imaging department and the soundstage has never sound wider.  Really didn't think I'd get this much out of a DAC but when you're paying over $7k, it better sound good!

I've heard many good things about the Denafrips Terminator+ and a few others mentioned.  Nice thing about DACs, they don't weigh a ton so return shipping isn't so bad, or you can buy used and just flip them.

There's a used T&A for $4800 on us audio mart rn.  If I was you, I'd grab one of those, a denafrips and maybe one or two other DACs to compare.  Any local hifi shops that will let you borrow gear?  Super invaluable in this process of gear selection!  Best of luck to you in your journey!

Sounds like a ladder DAC would get you where you would like to go.  At your price point you could swing a Denafrips or Holo Audio.  I would look at those first.  The Holo has a reputation of being a little more "tuby"  than the Denafrips with leans towards more revealing.  Good luck and cheers.

I will first attempt to define “soul” so we can calibrate expectations on SQ with each other.  To me “soul” or the ability to reproduce the emotion of the performer(s) and the composition on recorded music has a number of factors I will attempt to describe.  
1:   Lack of Artifacts:   Reproduction without artifacts, whether digital glare or vinyl grove noise, timing variations, etc. is critical.  Having a source component that reduces these artifacts is critical to “soul”.  When you audition equipment you are considering, listen to the timbre or acoustic instruments and to the background between notes.  The former shound sound correct to your ears.  The latter should sound as “black” as possible.  

2:  Image Density:   Personally, this is an attribute I consider very critical.  For music to have “soul” it is necessary for the images to have a dense, organic presence.  Some source equipment will image well with good sound stage width and depth, but the image density will be light.  When auditioning equipment use a well recorded vocal pop or jazz album and compare the image density.  For example, a Stockfish recording of Sara K or Katja Werka, Dream with Dean, Dire Straits Fade to Black, or Billie Eilish Not My Responsibility.

3:  Detail Retrieval:  Reproduction of “soul” requires the source component to be able to reproduce detail to the level that it reproduces second harmonic decays of instruments and hall ambiance.  This is critical for a source component to not sound “sterile”.  On any of the recordings mentioned in #2, you should be able to discern the engineered decays around the vocals.  For hall ambiance testing I use the Linn recording Applewood Road Loosing My Religion, a single miked live recording.   Pick the component that lets you hear best the variations in the three individual vocalists inflections and vibratos, and how the sound progresses out into the open air venue. On classical music, I use the 2L recordings Magnificat and Reflections where hall back wall and ambience is distinct.  Choose the source component that reproduces there effects best. 

3:  Micro and Macro Dynamics: Reproduction of “soul” requires the source component to reproduce micro and micro dynamic detail.  I do not speak about “slam” which is not critical and often can rob life if it is unnaturally intense.  I speak of the detailed dynamic inflections that are critical to reproduction of what others call PRaT.  Any of the test recordings I mentioned can be used to determine differences in dynamic “soul”.  

Regarding R2R ladder technology vs. “chip” technology, my experience indicates while there are some broad generalizations, it is not the conversation technology but rather the analog output technology that effects “soul”.  Some of the best and most expensive DACs use “chip” technology.  Some generalizations, IMHO, are ladder DACs (Holo May, DCS, Denafrips)  more laid back in their presentation from a staging perspective.  Timbre is accurate but laid back as well.   Images seem to also be lighter.  This is to the liking of many.  Chip or proprietary conversion designs (Mola Mola, Bricasti, AR) in general are more upfront in presentation from a staging perspective. Timbre is accurate but with more immediacy.  Imaging is more dense.  Recognize these are broad generalizations in my system to my ears. I do not prefer ladder DACs.  These generalizations were based on head to head auditions.  At the time I owned a Wyred4Sound 10th Anniversary DAC based on Sabre chip which excelled at reproduction of analogue “soul” and my opinion was backed up by many pro reviewers.  I purchased a Mola Mola Tambaqui just for the reason you are looking for.  It was better to my ears in lack of artifacts , image density, and dynamics, as well as timbre, giving music life.  It is not perfect.  It does not have the widest or deepest stage and while ambience reproduction is excellent directly around performers, it does not extend into the spaces between as well as others I auditioned.

My recommendation is to look for used offerings from Brisasti and Audio Research in you budget.  Above your budget look at a used Mola Mola or DCS Bartok.  The Bartok Appex sounds more organic (soul) than its predecessor.  Please audition because all of us have perceptions of what produces “soul”.   Hope my long winded  post at least stimulates a thought process that assist you in making a decision.  

 

@jsalerno277  I went from a $1,650 r2r dac to a $3,000 chip dac.  Same brand, so it's not really a fair comparison of r2r versus chip dac.  I was worried about losing the favorable qualities of the r2r dac, but that wasn't the case at all.  I much prefer the chip dac.  

Not a DAC recommendation but since you mention you like the idea of less is more, straight wire concept, have you considered an LDR passive preamp?  I have one from stereo coffee that I use with my Pass XA30.5 and I love it.  I was previously using an LTA MZ2 and sometimes a bottlehead Moreplay as a preamp and they had some things that I loved but the transparency, soundstage and channel separation in the LDR preamp is sooo good it's not worth giving up for the bit of tube magic that the others provide.  Great at all volumes too.  I notice dynamics are just as impactful no matter what my listening level.

I strongly recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui.  The better the system, the more you hear the ability this DAC possesses. Pair it with an Auralic streamer and you've got an unbeatable combo.

@sls883 - R2R DAC requires high quality precise components. Thus $1600 won't cut it and chip will do it better. But you won't find ESS in dCS gear.

@mikhailark That's great, but you aren't going to convince me that an excellent dac cannot be built around ESS chips.  

@sls883 - It can, but it is always possible to build R2R better than chip. With chip one is limited to manufacturer specs and analog filters must be appropriate to the chip. Limited freedom.

I had 4 dacs at one point of varying “levels”. The Topping dl90, Cambridge modified by ModWright with tubes, Audio Note and Rockna Wavedream. The Rockna was a game changer for me. Was better in every regard compared to the others and really woke up the system. All the others lacked soul I suppose. The Rockna was immediate and awesome in every aspect. I was also recommended the Bricasti from who sold me the Rockna. Both are apparently very good. Good luck