Please Make Audiogon Cool
Hello Erik and millercarbon, You're right, millercarbon did respond very quickly. Let's explore this for deeper significance, shall we? I know you're both interested in audio and listening to music that is well reproduced in a home environment. I'm already picturing you two cuddled up together on a plush loveseat underneath a blanket on a snowy and blustery winter's evening, sharing a bottle of wine, with a toasty fire crackling away in the fireplace and listening to "Do You Like Pina Coladas?" on your spectacular sound system that you both created together with an overabundance of love. Wait a minute, is the true purpose of Audiogon a Dating Service? At least you two lovebirds will always have an adorable meeting story to tell your grand kids. Oh yeah, I'm sorry but I'm not going to make your wedding once you two agree on a date, but I will be sending a gift. Good luck you two, Tim |
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I like high-end audio. Have since the 70s. I wish it was perceived as cool, but it just isn't. Every single person I have ever discussed this hobby with considers it odd to sit still, with eyes closed, listening to recorded music without talking or DOING SOMETHING! It simply is too technical, too meticulous, too anal-retentive, too obsessive-compulsive, too mathematical, too physics-centric, too electrical-engineerish, too expensive, too opinionated, too damn boring! I'm sure there's others, but I can't think of any more right now. What it is, is the antithesis of "cool". It's serious stuff, it's meaningful, it has depth and breadth, it requires commitment, determination and dedication. It's not for the casual person tripping through life day to day lacking focus and planning. It's for serious people who make plans and then see them through to fruition. It's a wonderful hobby, but I don't know anyone who thinks it's "cool". I wish it was. |
I have the good fortune to work with a number of young people. They DO think audio is cool. I have a tube setup at my office and they are intrigued and interested. Play them some of their music and they will instantly smile. In fact, a young professional I work with told me last week that she would be buying a turntable. I asked her if she had any vinyl and she said not yet. Here’s what they don’t think is cool: things that are radically expensive without justification and people who take themselves OR their gear too seriously. The shrines and rituals are what tend to fade over time in all parts of the human experience. If you make the act of listening to music a solemn, non-interactive experience in solitude while placing an almost religious fervor to its reproduction then the community has no right to whine that it just isn’t catching on. Keep doing the same old things and expect different outcomes? I was talking with a ham radio Nazi and he didn’t see the cell phone as a logical extention..... |
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It will be difficult to make this a welcoming place for engineers and scientists because they will quickly tire of the attacks of the Wikipedia experts and those enamored and convinced of the infallibility of their ears and brains, even though confirmation bias is well understood in psychology and the foibles of non-controlled subjective audio testing were put to bed by actual audio engineers decades ago. The funny things is, actual engineers and scientists do far more subjective audio testing than these armchair audio athletes, they just do it in controlled situations with larger groups. When one of the audio athletes wants to prove a point, they will latch onto an actual scientific paper like a rabid crocodile if it in any way supports their position. Audio press, many manufacturers, dealers, etc. are more than happy to encourage this mindset .... it is in their best interest as it helps sell their highest margin products, which drives advertising, which .... well you get it. Take a count of how many threads there are about cables, fuses, power conversion, isolation products, and similar "tweaks". Now take a count of how many threads there are on acoustics and room treatments, and how few people have any significant knowledge in this area. A well placed $200 absorption or diffusion panel is going to improve sound far more than a $2000 cable upgrade, a few thousand in room treatment, more than 10's of thousands of "tweaks". It may not make the audio industry go round, but it is a path to the best sound possible for a given budget. So how do you change things ... ask better questions? I don't have an easy answer, but I am sure it starts with the consumer. |
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noromance ... sez:
He should have tried my line. I just siddle up to a good looking woman at the bar, and when she glances over at me, and I see that look of disgust on her face, I just say ... "I'm really not this tall. I'm sitting on my wallet." Works every time. Frank |
OK, I'VE GOT something to contribute here, and "I" think it's cool in a weird way. I have a big, heavy, and very good-sounding system in the living room. It's pretty expensive gear, but I built it up over many years, upgrading a little at a time. But I ALSO have a (miserable in comparison) non-audiophile system in my bedroom- Teac compact components (8.5 in. wide) driving JBL "studio" 6in. 3-way speakers. Std. wire except for one pair of Audioquest Lapis connecting the CD player. It's not even quite up to Mid-Fi standards. There's no imaging, no stage, no silky highs. But... it's not all that bad, either. Plenty of bass when called for. It's clean sounding up to pretty loud volumes (35W/Ch). It looks nice and can play most any kind of music as well. Why is it my ears don't discriminate that much anymore? I'm not questioning the validity of the delicate nuances coming out of a great speaker system, but I can ALSO listen to music on just about anything. Except- an esoteric set of components that sounds unacceptional (but the "Watts" are certainly there if you're hosting a house party). I think we all know the disappointment of hearing a demo and have to be diplomatic with the salesman who wants you to be amazed. Of course the flip side of this is when the store has an irresistibly good sounding system that costs four times what you can afford, but you "know" that's the kind of gear you always dreamed of having. The overall point here is that satisfaction is a complicated emotion- and what if all you want to hear is Black Sabbath at concert volume? Who can say what kind of system "you really need" to make you happy? |
roberttcan It will be difficult to make this a welcoming place for engineers and scientists because they will quickly tire of the attacks of the Wikipedia experts and those enamored and convinced of the infallibility of their ears and brains, even though confirmation bias is well understood in psychology and the foibles of non-controlled subjective audio testing were put to bed by actual audio engineers decades ago. >>>>>Nobody is saying that the ears can’t be fooled sometimes. But certainly not always. Give us a break! Familiarity with one’s system and recordings can help ensure not many mistakes are made. And experience. So, I declare that we can summarily dismiss any psychological bugaboo, whether it’s being psyched out, confirmation bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever other mumbo jumbo terminology you like. I’ve already used the term Wiki scientist, it’s what I labeled you, actually. So, please stop using my material. Have you no shame? “Many of you will go on to big things. The rest of you will become audio engineers.” - Commencement address at Audio school. 😬 |
WHAT CAN BE ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE, CAN BE DISMISSED WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Your argument is easily dismissed as you have no evidence to support your position, nor are you willing to provide evidence via proving your claim. Report thisgeoffkait17,625 posts10-22-2019 5:02pm >>>>>Nobody is saying that the ears can’t be fooled sometimes. But intimacy with one’s system and recordings can help ensure not many mistakes are made. So, we can dismiss any psychological bugaboo, whether it’s being psyched out, confirmation bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever other mumbo jumbo terminology you like. Yes, I have noticed your use of ad-homs when you are not able to address the argument. It is not something to be proud of. "I’ve already used the term Wiki scientist, it’s what I labeled you, actually, so please stop using my material. Have you no shame?" |
See Erik, I rest my point. Any actual engineers and scientists in the audio field, are quickly turned off by stuff like this, which has no basis in fact, for which the author will be unwilling and unable to support with evidence .... With confirmation bias, placebo effect, and a host of other human foibles so well established (by actual scientists), one has to wonder both why someone would make an assertion like this that is provably wrong, and why they would not be willing to prove the assertion. Report thisgeoffkait17,625 posts10-22-2019 5:02pm >>>>>Nobody is saying that the ears can’t be fooled sometimes. But intimacy with one’s system and recordings can help ensure not many mistakes are made. So, we can dismiss any psychological bugaboo, whether it’s being psyched out, confirmation bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever other mumbo jumbo terminology you like.😬 |
You know Erik_squires, there is one thing that would make these forums, and most audio forums better. I am okay with being anonymous, in today’s "cancel culture" I don’t blame people. However, I think if people have to clearly state whether they earned money from the audio industry, AND, clearly state the type of products they deal with and whether they are a MFR, dealer, installer, etc. then it would allow others on the forums to better judge for themselves whether self-interest was influencing a particular posters writings. Here, I will go first. I currently earn about 25-35% of my income (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) from the audio industry, through my companies design consulting on advanced product design for electronics, acoustics, and signal processing and some dedicated test and measurement gear, as well as some royalties for past designs and we box-build some items. It all depends on the agreed revenue/business model with the client. I have previously earned 100% of my income in the industry doing similar things, electronics, acoustics, signal processing, and in management and sales/marketing. |
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roberttcan Any actual engineers and scientists in the audio field, are quickly turned off by stuff like this, which has no basis in fact ... So how do you change things ...There are lots of facts here, but you don’t like them. There is a lot of evidence here, but not the kind you like. There are also multiple actual scientists and engineers who regularly contribute here. But you just joined yesterday, so you can be somewhat forgiven for not recognizing that. If you stick around, you’ll likely find some here who are even smarter than you. |
"Yes, "the difference between cables and fuses". that one is EASY.Cables are longer than fuses. I hope that makes it clear what the differences between cables and fuses once, and for all time. (this does not count giant industrial size fuses)" Thanks Elizabeth I needed a chuckle |
I have yet to see any "evidence" or "facts" presented, as least what would qualify as evidence or facts from an engineering / scientific stand point (you know, something that could stand up in court, or a scientific paper ... I changed it and I thought it was better doesn't count.). If there are actual degreed electrical/engineering physics/acoustic engineers and degreed physical scientists, please speak up. Love to chat with you ... p.s. I just rejoined yesterday. I have been here before, but left when too busy getting a company off the ground. Obviously based on the op's post and other posts I have read, his and my feelings are not unique. You may want to try being part of the solution instead of bullying. cleeds2,479 posts10-22-2019 5:42pmroberttcan Any actual engineers and scientists in the audio field, are quickly turned off by stuff like this, which has no basis in fact ... So how do you change things ...There are lots of facts here, but you don’t like them. There is a lot of evidence here, but not the kind you like. There are also multiple actual scientists and engineers who regularly contribute here. But you just joined yesterday, so you can be somewhat forgiven for not recognizing that. If you stick around, you’ll likely find some here who are even smarter than you. |
roberttcan WHAT CAN BE ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE, CAN BE DISMISSED WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Your argument is easily dismissed as you have no evidence to support your position, nor are you willing to provide evidence via proving your claim. Report thisgeoffkait17,625 posts10-22-2019 5:02pm >>>>>Nobody is saying that the ears can’t be fooled sometimes. But intimacy with one’s system and recordings can help ensure not many mistakes are made. So, we can dismiss any psychological bugaboo, whether it’s being psyched out, confirmation bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever other mumbo jumbo terminology you like. Yes, I have noticed your use of ad-homs when you are not able to address the argument. It is not something to be proud of. "I’ve already used the term Wiki scientist, it’s what I labeled you, actually, so please stop using my material. Have you no shame?" >>>>>In that case I will dismiss your arguments. Talk to da hand 🖐 |
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The second most important piece of equipment, after the speakers, is the room. Went to an audio show on a weekend ... room after room after room of disappointing and very very expensive systems. $30,000+ of Nordost, a $50,000 turntable, $100,000 of speakers and I have no clue how much of electronics can’t fix bad acoustics. Maybe the room the Teac system is in is pretty tolerable such that there is nothing "awful" to distract from the music. Sure, listening to my main system is a far step better, but I often get a lot of enjoyment from the Sonos 1's and 3's sprinkled around the house. Report thisfrench_fries750 posts10-22-2019 4:43pm Why is it my ears don’t discriminate that much anymore? I’m not questioning the validity of the delicate nuances coming out of a great speaker system, but I can ALSO listen to music on just about anything. Except- an esoteric set of components that sounds unacceptional (but the "Watts" are certainly there if you’re hosting a house party). I think we all know the disappointment of hearing a demo and have to be diplomatic with the salesman who wants you to be amazed. |
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Please Make Audiogon CoolYes all for it, (not dope head, cooool man you should hear this, blows that away believe me) Without any of the voodoo BS statements and products, that can’t be backed up with any solid EE (electronic engineering) principals, that all our equipment is designed and based on in the first place. First decent thing you've proposed reading it my way. |
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Who is "the rest of us" ... asking for a friend teo_audio1,151 posts10-22-2019 7:42pmTo the postulating and posturing engineering sycophant who is searching desperately for windmills in the mirror of ego: It would be highly appreciated by the rest of us if you would cease and desist and take your leave. thanks |
Speaking of cool, I understand most of you are curious about just how Cool I actually am. Completely understandable but it's difficult for me to elaborate on this since it's just my constant condition. Truth is I don't try to be Cool. I don't think about being Cool or even what Cool is. I just get up early every day, do my stuff and it's everyone I interact with and those observing who describe me as Cool. All day, every day and all night, every night, I ain't nothin but Cool and I'm not even tryin. Like how I just dropped those two gs and made that last part of the sentence kinda rhyme. All ya all probably thought that was kinda Hep but that was just me naturally spewing syllables step by step. See what I mean? Oh come'on, you even think it's cool I didn't add the 'jelly bean'? Cut it out! People say I'm Vincent Vega Cool but without all that blood drippin. Sisters say I was a Cool pup just doing my bawlin and crawlin. Erik asks how we're going to make Audiogon Cool. Obviously not with lame poems from this old Fool. Just having some fun acting the Fool, Tim Okay, maybe a bit touched. |
"If there are actual degreed electrical/engineering physics/acoustic engineers and degreed physical scientists, please speak up" Well Robert, as a math type I find that some degreed engineers are among the hardest to take. They seem fond of quoting theorems that don't apply, and then replying to objections by saying things like, "Oh, we get around that by ..." See any digital thread. |
The OP posed a very valid question sure to elicit the numerous responses already seen here. Manufacturers, scientists, audio experts, etc. are sure to respond to any question or comment. The reason I survey posts on these forums is to hear what others have to say about topics that interest me. Whether seeking advice or recommendations, it seems the purpose of posts is to hear what others have experienced as pertains to a particular issue. Replies to an OP often cascade into numerous personal opinions that eventually evolve into ones that have no constructive value to what was originally asked. Many times, it's just people boasting about their "super systems". Whether a person owns a $50 boom box or a mega $$$ system, everyone has a legitimate right to ask simple question without hearing about where they went wrong or "what may have been" Keeping things simple is, in my view, is cool. |
Where I find that happens on Internet forums is where their degree is not in the actual field being discussed. Having a chem-eng degree does not make you an electrical engineer for instance (and vice versa of course). Unfortunately success in one particular endeavor in life often gives people the false impression that that success/expertise directly translates into everything else they do. It strangely hits mainly men of a particular IQ range that is above 100. terry91,051 posts10-22-2019 9:26pm"If there are actual degreed electrical/engineering physics/acoustic engineers and degreed physical scientists, please speak up" Well Robert, as a math type I find that some degreed engineers are among the hardest to take. They seem fond of quoting theorems that don't apply, and then replying to objections by saying things like, "Oh, we get around that by ..." See any digital thread. |
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