Replace tubes yearly?

The life of a tube is greatly dependent on the type of tube, the operating conditions of the tube, and even the specific manufacturer of the tube.

Power output tubes tend to have shorter lives than linestage tubes or the input and driver tubes of an amplifier.  Even among output tubes, the ones that are called upon to output high wattage tend to have short lives.  A lot of manufacturers, in order to claim high output, create operating conditions that mean shorter life than if they backed off a bit on those operating conditions that shorten life.  

While the smaller signal input and driver tubes tend to have a longer life, these too vary greatly in how hard a particular amp drives the tube.

Given that there are so many variable involved, there is no simple formula, such as change tubes after this or that time interval.   Both my amp and linestage drive my tubes so gently that I have not had one tube go bad in over 15 years of operation.  Even at the start of my use, the tubes that were put in were used tubes of unknown prior usage.  Most of these tubes were probably well used before I got them.  But, all my tubes are run so gently, they are expected to last a very long time.  This is a VERY good thing because they are all expensive.  My output tubes are 349s, the driver tubes are 348s; my linestage tubes are 310s.  

Short answer: No.

Having a second set of tube around to periodically (anywhere between once a year to every 5 years) check whether you notice something, can be considered. But a yearly schedule is nonsense. If anything, it depends on numbers of hours on the tubes. If that would be important, then tube gear manufacturers would include a cumulative time counter on gear; I've seen those in electron microscopes to keep track of filament age, but am not aware of such features on audio gear.
There are so many variables (type of tube, circuit design, on/off cycles, total time, individual tube variance, ...) that there is no general rule possible.

And then there is the burn-in (allegedly, I have not noticed anything on my tubes). So first it sounds bad because tubes are not burnt in, then change them after a year because they sound bad? LOL! If that is so much of a concern, then rather stick with SS.

Relax, enjoy your music. If you like, do some tube rolling for fun. my 2c.

"But he also mentioned that it didn’t make a huge difference since you probably should replace your tubes every year."

That is a ridiculous statement for him to make!

Power tubes like EL34's and KT88's are good for about 2500 hours or more. But may go longer in an amplifier with a conservative design. Small signal tubes with numbers like 12AX7, 12AU7, and 6922, and rectifier tubes like 5AR4 may go 10,000 hours. So you get years and years of enjoyment. Using a tube tester may or may not tell you if you need a replacement. The best approach is to buy a new set of tubes, and install them. If they don't sound a lot better, put in the old ones and suck every bit of life out of them.

@yogatma 

+1

It depends on the tubes. But annual is not an appropriate schedule. Hours on the tubes. This is why tube amps have hour counters. Your component manufacturer should recommend the number of hours. It is dependent on how hard they run them. 

For instance ARC recommends 2,000 on the 6550 tubes and 3,000 on the rest. 

Unless a tube fails in someway, you never have to replace your tubes.  Run them for 30 or even 50 years at a time and they will function.  Now your equipment won't sound it's absolute best as the tubes age, but that's a very subjective observation.

I don't know of any power tubes that will last 30+ years, but for small signal tubes in conservatively designed circuits it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  Again, they won't sound perfect, but I can't do the things I used to do 30 years ago either.

Aside from tubes, Paul's suggestion to keep your equipment powered up 24/7, is contradicted by many manufacturers.  I know this issue divides members into two camps.  My own amp manufacturer recommends turning off when not in use.  Claims the soft start circuitry protects the equipment and leaving it powered up just shortens life and wastes power.  Not trying to change the direction of the post, just suggesting it don't make it true, just because Paul says so.  IMHO.

Never keep tube gear powered up.  It's a waste of electricity and dangerous.   Ever see a KT88 go nuclear red plate with arcing and flashing and sparking?  It's scary. 

I've had good luck with tubes over the past 25 years that I've been using them. I try to be proactive about tube replacement. If a tube is noisy or doesn't hold its bias i replace.   But every year ?   No way. 

One can only marvel at the occasional nonsense spouted by the industry greats: small signal tubes especially but even the venerable 300b were designed for >20000 Hours of service. So even if you were stupid enough to keep them permanently powered they‘d exceed a year‘s service.

I like Paul. Knowledgeable. I read his book. Every year? If that’s true, I’m in big trouble!

Sometimes, I think Paul goes beyond what he 'knows'. He made his name in SS, not tubes. So, if anyone should have an opinion on tubes, it would be Ralph Karsten at Atmasphere.

Bob

Thanks guys.

@oberoniaomnia If tube rolling just means trying different tubes I did that once. As mentioned, even with my not-so-golden ears there was a distinct difference in the sound. But I was very hard pressed to say that I liked one better than the other and was not compelled to buy the loaner tubes. So my tube rolling days are probably over. ;-) But, the idea of a back up set certainly has its merits.

@yogiboy and @noromance and @antigrunge2  I like watching Paul's videos and have learned a lot from them but I sometimes disagree about some of the things he says or find them not to be significant when I put them into practice. But who am I to question?

@bigtwin I do not leave my gear powered up. The tube pre-amp has a 45 second soft start and the amp has like a 10 second soft start. The amp also makes a fair amount of heat even when not in use. I don't need that in the summer here in the south. And while I am not an environmentalist by any stretch, I am of Scottish descent (tight wad) and am a conservative (in the environmental sense) so I hate wasting electricity or environmental resources for no good reason.

Having said that I do have a Sonos Amp that stays powered up.

Just looked at my LS-16 manual. It says it is fine to leave it on all the time but that it may shorten tube life.

Also, I have an exhaust fan on the LS-16 and two on my amp. Amp is solid state. Both are in an open front enclosure with decent ventilation but I consider the fans to be good insurance and that might have help my tubes have last so long.

I have an ARC LS7 that I have left on for about 30 years, I mute it when I'm not listening. Never had a problem in all that time.  (knock glass)

@n80 yes, tube rolling = trying different types of tubes. Sorry for using lingo without explaining it.

I have done some TR, particularly with a Woo WA6SE headphone amp. The stock power tube was not the best. Splurged on a WE422 based on recommendation in Headfi, and that sounded quite a bit better. I tried some other, more reasonable priced ones as well, and not much difference, IMHO. Those are now my back-ups. Haven't bothered checking the WE422 vs. back-up in about 5 years. The amp did not get too much use, but that has changed more recently.

Also tried about 4 sets of signal tubes. Differences were more subtle, but they were there. I have not yet done any TR on my PrimaLuna EVO300pre. Maybe when I have nothing else to do ...

I don't have those special golden ears either, but I do hear differences in tubes.

Thanks @oberoniaomnia 

I was glad that I was able to hear the difference between tubes but disappointed that I didn't find the pricier replacement ones to sound a lot better. I do not even remember which tube I tried and I don't know what is in there now but I think they are Electro-Harmonix 6922.

The LS-16 unfortunately has 4 tubes which would make rolling more expensive. The E-H 6922s are cheap.

The manual says the original tubes are 6922/E88CC tubes and should last 4000 hours. Since I was given this preamp after years of use I cannot even guess how many hours these have on them.

So, a maker of solid state gear, and only solid state gear, states that if you buy tube gear, you have to make yearly tube replacement.  Does anyone think it is a scare tactic?  What if I say something completely unsupported like, “you shouldn’t worry about your PS Audio amp catching on fire, that is what insurance is for.”

“So, a maker of solid state gear, and only solid state gear, states that if you buy tube gear, you have to make yearly tube replacement.”

The PS Audio BHK line has input signal tubes in the circuits. 
 

Preamps and amps. 

That they have input tubes that require yearly replacement should be a good reason NOT to buy that gear.  Clearly, they don’t know how to implement tubes in their design.

Some folks rush to opine, some rush to smear, some rush to offer conspiracy theories, but no one rushes to go back to what Paul actually said.  I had watched the YouTube video before reading this post and what the OP reported is not quite what Paul said.

Go to the 56 second mark of the YouTube video and listen to what Paul actually said ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUGS2g4X4Ls&t=6s and judge for yourself.

The question being answered was on keeping your equipment on all the time or not.  Paul offered technical explanations as to why to keep equipment on all the time for SS, but not so for tubes.  No big surprise here.   Paul went on further to say that this should not represent that big a deal for tube owners, since tube replacement goes with owning tube equipment and he replaces his tubes every year.  

For all you know, Paul drives his equipment hard every year and needs to replace the tubes.  It may have just been conversational or an off the cuff remark.  Certainly did not come off as 'must follow' advice.

There you have it sports fans.  It's so easy to verify things like this, before going off.

Rich 

When I was listening to my stereo 6 hours a day, I replaced my tubes annually. Could I hear a difference? Yes. Sharper, punchier sound, would get softer with time. Then, good tubes became harder to get, and I played the equipment less. So now I retube like once every 5 years (or roll for experiments). Probably wasteful experience before, as those tubes (like Amperex, Telefunken 12AX7) are unobtanium now. 

@rar1 Paul has said to replace tubes every year in past videos, in fact Kevin from upscale Audio even made a video opposing what Paul has said.

I moved away from tubes years ago and now only solid state.  It’s whatever you prefer for equipment in my opinion.  Anyway, I usually leave my equipment on since it goes into a low power state after a certain period of nonuse.  I do find that turning it off and then back on occasionally is warranted, just like rebooting a computer which a lot of equipment is to some degree now.  

@invalid -

Hi.  I am not looking to be argumentative on a topic that I am not all that interested in, as I turn all hifi equipment off regardless.  All I did was refer back to the video that the OP mentioned, as I had watched the video and remembered it somewhat differently.  Read or re-read some of the comments made on this post ... 

1. That is a ridiculous statement for him to make!
2. So, a maker of solid state gear, and only solid state gear, states that if you buy tube gear, you have to make yearly tube replacement.  Does anyone think it is a scare tactic? 
3. What if I say something completely unsupported like, “you shouldn’t worry about your PS Audio amp catching on fire, that is what insurance is for.”
4. Sometimes, I think Paul goes beyond what he 'knows'. He made his name in SS, not tubes.
5. That they have input tubes that require yearly replacement should be a good reason NOT to buy that gear.  Clearly, they don’t know how to implement tubes in their design.

I really doubt these folks were referring to past videos by Paul or Kevin Deal or watched the video the OP was referring to.  

It's ok to have differing opinions.  No need to piss on others.

Rich 

The Mullard M8080 that I ran in my conrad-johnson PV-14L lasted forever. Never replaced them.  I bought multiple pairs as backups because they are hard to find, but never needed them. 

I'd just as soon not replace my WE-300B's every year, thank you very much, unless Paul wants to gift me a pair annually.

It was a silly statement if that's what he said (I'm going by the comments, not the vid), with no consideration as to how long the tubes were actually on for.... 

If you want really warm, and have deep pockets, I would say look for 5692 tubes.  They are drop in substitutions for 6SN7s.  My Audio Note Kageki amps came with these tubes, but I fooled around and ended up with Tungsol Roundplates which are not as warm sounding but I appreciated the greater clarity.  

For background purposes, more on why Paul feels the way he does about tube replacement.  He covers it quite well.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPCPJ4tMr28

Rich 

Powering up is likely where the greatest stress is placed on tubes, equipment with soft start circuits and/or standby ability where heater always powered can be helpful . Seems ironic, but I'm most fearful with fresh new tubes, damage due to shipping or poor quality control is where most of my failures have occurred. Just experienced this with a new Western Electric 300B tube. 101D tubes are extremely fragile, 845 can be scary.

@larsman My new WE 300B's were about 2 1/2 years old, guaranteed for 5 years as you know.  My only backup was a set of cheap Cossars that came with the amp.

WE had a sale in November so I figured buy another pair just in case.

I had no idea mine had deteriorated and the guys in our audio club always thought my rig sounded great.  Much to my surprise, I put the new ones in to break them in and they sounded glorious.  Immediately clear they sounded much better, much more detail at every frequency.  Greater precision in the soundstage.  Not a subtle improvement.

The old ones had about 4,500 hours on them and weren't showing any signs of of their having deteriorated.

BTW, I've had 12AU7s deteriorate seriously within only 9 months.

@dougthebiker - thank you for your thoughts about your experience. It would take me much longer than I've got left to live to run up 4500 hours on my 300B tubes. For me, they get used perhaps 1/10 of that much. 

I think that both bascom king and arny nudel?spelling knew a thing or two about tube's and thier design.they both had thier hands in bhk desidn.i have 2 and have not had trouble.watch the video  from ps audio reviewing them both.alot of prominent audio designers were in the audience.we have a difference of opinion in science that can be good.do your own experiences enjoy the musicand life.

Paul McGowan always says to leave SS equipment on, not tube.  In fact their BHK preamp and power amps are designed to stay on except the tube inputs,  when on standby.  He does say to leave all amps on at least twenty minutes before listening to get the best sound.

The primary reason for leaving solid state on all of the time is because transistors will not degrade nearly as quickly as will tubes from constant use and solid state gear takes much longer to warm up than tube gear.  The primary downside to leaving solid state on all of the time is that this exposes the gear to more mishaps, such as powerline surges and brownout (undervoltage can be particularly hard on solid state gear) and weather-related mishap.  Also, while transistors have a much longer life than do tubes, they are not nearly as easy to replace, and it is sometimes the case that there are no replacement parts available many years later when they do need replacement.  By contrast, most 80 and 90 year old tube gear is easily serviceable.  

Quality of the tubes you're using plays a role. That's why people pay a lot more money for new old stock.  Presumably they made tubes a lot better a while back than they do now.

@rar1 This is exactly what Paul said:

"Honestly, if you have tube equipment you’re used to replacing the tubes. I do it every year [gesturing toward his equipment], you know, you just have to. That’s kind of a given when you have vacuum tubes."

So no need to smugly lecture everyone else about how we misconstrued things. Fine, if you’re a hi-fi expert you may have understood that Paul was making a generalization. But in the context of this video, and many of his others, he positions himself as the authority on the matter and addresses questions from people who do not seem to be experts and the videos are clearly being watched by people who aren’t experts, like me. We see him as the expert he is and it is not "going off" to take him at face value.

And no one is really "pissing" on anyone. Paul puts himself and his videos out there as a presumed expert, if not the expert. If his opinions and even his off-the-cuff remarks are seen as off the mark by other experts or misunderstood by us "sports fans" who aren’t, it is hardly "pissing" on him to point it out.

@n80 -

Hi.  I wasn't smugly lecturing anyone.  I remembered Paul's comments differently than the way you originally presented them.  I provided links to 2 of his videos for people to judge for themselves.   

Some of the comments made were taking swipes at Paul and others.  I didn't think it was warranted. 

Rich  

@rar1 +1.

That's how I saw your posts.

@rar1 Okay, this is what you posted:

"Some folks rush to opine, some rush to smear, some rush to offer conspiracy theories, but no one rushes to go back to what Paul actually said."

So that's not smug? Whatever.

I went back to what Paul actually said as you suggested. I quoted it for you verbatim. I took him at face value. My initial impression stands. As far as I can tell no one else here  seriously misunderstood him either. Any 'swipes' taken were perfectly reasonable even if possibly mistaken.

@rar1 Paul even said in one video several years ago, that you have to be careful not to touch the glass on an audio vacuum tube, that's nonsense, just like his several videos that tell people to change vacuum tubes once a year on input stages.

Very lazy and costly advice.  Tube vendors will like it. 

n80

+1

I have listened to several of Paul's videos. I do not any more. 

1. Always keep spares for when eventually will be needed.
2. If you hear noise or distortion other than normal a bad tube or tubes is suspect
3. To find the bad tube replace one at a time and listen for a difference
4. A tube tester is your friend but how many people actually have access to one these days?

I bought a tester when I started using amps with rectifiers and four pin antique tubes.   It save me from disaster with my 300b.  A rectifier took out the fuse on my tester (basically a small light bulb) and not my amp.   

Not practical to own/buy  one unless most of your gear uses tubes.  I had a guitar amp repair tech near me where I used to live and he sold tubes.  He was happy to test tubes , often times he would end up selling one or two. 

I wonder how many tubes get thrown out because they test weak on a tube tester, when they could perform perfectly fine in a cathode follower circuit.

Which tester to buy and how to interpret the results is a very complicated subject unless you are just looking for rough results, like avoiding shorted tubes or dead tubes.  I had tubes that tested very weak on an Amplitrex (modern, industry standard tester) but still sounding good.  I contacted the amp manufacturer who said that in this particular application weak tubes would work fine and I should use the tubes until they sounded bad or died.

@invalid good point that not all tubes need be top performers. It all depends on the specific design of each amp.

I had a ARC sp16 tube preamp that used 6 12ax7 tubes. Only one or two required very high performance tubes. When I bought tubes from ARC, 1 tube always cost more and was designated for use in a specific slot. The others cost less. If I heard noise I would swap out the bad tube but keep it as a spare in that it could be perfectly fine next time. I labeled my used tubes in a hierarchy so I would know which ones sounded best still when removed and would always try that one first. My stash of spares that were removed prior kept me going nicely for many years. That one slot that required the top notch quality tube was replaced just once with a replacement purchased just for that from ARC. Just an example. I’m sure every tube amp is different. There may be cases that require all tubes be replaced once a year. Some amps are harder on tubes than others. It all depends. Tubes can be quite cumbersome and expensive to maintain, especially if there are lots of them, which is something I have always tried to avoid, but of course different strokes….

Great thread with a lot of good information.  In the past, I have a Conrad Johnson PV8 which I think I ran in my system for well over 10 years and really never gave a thought about the tubes.  At some point, I called CJ and asked for a set of replacement tubes.  I got them and replaced them in the preamp and Holy Moly, the difference in SQ was absolutely astounding immediately! The preamp sounded fine before, but far more revealing with new tubes. You don't know what you are missing sometimes.  Yearly replacement of tubes in general is unwarranted in my opinion, certainly not with input tubes as several above posters have noted.    

@silverfoxvtx1800 

”Don’t mean to change the subject but looks like some experts with tubes in here, what’s the best NOS 6SN7 for a nice warm tone you have used?”

Personally, I’ve been using a pair of Tung-Sol 6F8G tubes (in a 20+ year old Tektron TK2A3/50/300 amp) for several years now with an adapter. Ran them for a year in a 300b SET amp I built and I’m back to the Tektron running EML 2A3 mesh tubes. 300b sits while I try and decide which equipment I’ll miss less when I pack it up for our move to TN.

Aside from those, I like 1940’s-era Sylvania 6SN7WGTB tubes; have a matched set I bought from Brent Jesse and have gotten a lot of use out of those… still prefer the 6F8g or VT99 tubes.

My “test song” for tube rolling is Michael Hedges’ “Aerial Boundaries” off the 1982 (?) LP.

YMMV.

Me, I’m trying to spend my children’s inheritance so they won’t be spoiled when I’m gone.