Anbody else beside C123666 using Scheur?Look like they are better than Clearaudio Solution or Nottoingham SpacdeckzMany opf us just cant swing these yummy looking $8K combos.I am suprised that somebody mentioned that the teres would war or crack and tyhat maybe reaonm to eclude it.It's a long string so not sure if anybody mentioned Acoustic Signature Final Tool.Me I am tired of unipivot arm wobble onmy Aries and lack of antisket which EVERY deck needs for proper sound and Lp wear not a twisted wire.But SME for main arm (though the bottom of line Scroeder looks good) will be fine with one head mono and one mC stereo but second arm I think will be 9" VPI since one can find plinths verywhere from Scoutmaster upgardes.Just get a motor and memorial mount and you v\can plonk the 9" on a Scout in bedroom (I have and spare TNT5 platter so just a9" mount on scout and full 9" on double arm deck will mean I can use a cheapo for beat LP's on main deck and then just pull off and plonk down in bedroom.zMaimum economy wihtout just egtting a MMF for bedrrom).That's plan with Final tool teres 355/320 or that nice looking Scheu deck.Any advice or cationary tales?
Cheers
Chazz
Chazzbo |
These tables ALL look so damn good.I just saw a picture of the TERES in FULL BLOWN ROSEWOOD.MAN O MAN --OUT THE WINDOW goes my philosophy of having to have "HANDS ON" with a product this GORGEOUS.I know NOTHING,but could NEVER resist the urge to put this design on a really short list,if I were in the market.I have,also,heard consistently great things about the TERES stuff for a couple of years now,so I have to assume that there are alot of smarter folks than me,out there!! |
There was discussion here last year to hold a Teres/Galibier/Redpoint "shootout" at RMAF. That didn't pan out AFAIK, so I'm not sure a direct comparison (same room, same sytem, etc.) has ever been made. |
I didn't really mean to sound like I was coming down so hard on the Final Tool turntable design. I'm sure it is a good sounding turntable.
I simply was trying to point out some reasons of why I like one design over another.
I would jump at the chance to audition one, and I'm sure I would enjoy it. It does have some things that I like in a turntable design. |
In most turntables like Teres, Redpoint, Galibier, the materials chosen are the preferences of the designers/owners of the company. These choices are typically made by comparative listening to the TT, using the different things, and choosing what they like the sound of. All these TTs are good, and will vary a bit in sound, due to the variations that each company uses. They have all emerged from one starting point, The Teres Project, so they all have similar roots, and probably have some sonic similarities left, even after materials/design changes.
Regarding the materials chosen and the effects on the sound, it is difficult to determine exactly how a given material will sound, unless you also consider it in conjunction with the rest of the overall design. While I like brass as a material, it is not sufficient to just apply brass "willy nilly" at any location on the TT and expect better results. There must be a reason to use a material in the application and position for it to work out right.
For example, brass, when used in the proper formulation and shapes, can have excellent energy transfer properties. But, you have to have some place for the energy to come from, and someplace for the energy to go, for an energy transfer media to be of use. So, the TT must be engineered with these vibration transfer pathways in mind, or else the material will not function as desired. In the case of hardwood, this material is very good at dispersing energy thoughout its diversely-grained internal structure, and will also tend to transfer some of that energy along the longitudinal grain pattern. This application needs to be carefully considered when using wood in a TT.
Plastics work in a variety of ways, depending upon their formulations.
So, it's necessary to know what your materials can do, and how to apply them to the best effect in the application. There is no way to just say that "brass is better", or "wood is better", unless you can understand how it is being used for its purpose. In some cases, brass may be much worse than another material, if it is not used correctly. Generally, a knowledgeable person can tell by just looking at the way the pieces of a product are constructed and assembled, as to which materials would be productive in the application. In many cases, the product could benefit(or get worse) by changing the shapes and assembly techniques of certain parts, when they use a different material.
It depends on what the designer is trying to achieve with his design. The better he knows what he's doing, the better the result will be. He will use the proper materials and the proper geometries, and the proper assembly methods for his design to be correctly realized. |
Have any of you Teres owners done a/b comparisons with Galibier or Redpoint? I'm curious as to what your impressions may have been. I think it's intersting that they evolved out of a common approach and ended in significantly different material choices, but yet retain what appears to me as much of the same philosophy. All the talk of Aluminum vs. wood vs. Brass or combinations thereof just has me interested in what sonic differences I might expect when hearing a few specific tables. There seem to be many fans of each approach and please don't think I want a definitive kind of answer on which is better, but this thread just got me thinking it might be interesting to hear what people have to say about it.
Matt |
SirSpeedy,
Thanks for the idea of soldering all my connections. It would probably sound better, as Raul confirmed. This of course supports the concept that a single tonearm wire has a sonic advantage over a broken one. It seems we agree on that.
Of course it's up to each of us to decide where and how far to take this principle. Raul makes soldering seem like quite a hassle however, and I'm sure it is. I'll hold off for now, but thanks for the suggestion.
Sorry your friend didn't like the SST. I haven't tried it. I have read literature from a similar product and the theory behind it is a mixture of good and silly. Considering the obvious risks and the undeniable hassle of trying to remove it I'm 100% with you - holding off.
***
The sort of analysis Twl just performed for the Acoustic Signature Final Tool is similar to one I did - mentally - when a dealer asked me if I'd like to compare another table with my Teres. This other table lists for over $11K. But when I compared them "on paper" it appeared to have trouble even matching the qualities of my $4K model 265.
The performance is the thing of course. I passed on the audition but I spent a lot of hours with that other table when the dealer asked me and some friends to help set one up and break it in for a customer. Comparing tables in different systems is dangerous of course, but my friends and I all came away unanimously convinced that this $11K table is simply uncompetitive.
IOW, my theoretical comparison was proved correct by a hands-on evaluation: nothing about that table was superior, many things about it were demonstrably inferior.
Yes, I'm a "fan" of Teres. I'm a fan of any product that offers engineering, materials, construction and performance that exceed what's generally available for the price. The Teres models at least up to the 265 provide remarkable performance at their respective price points. Their component quality equals or betters tables selling for 2-3X the price. No one needs to apologize for appreciating genuine value. I will always be a fan of that.
Doug |
Raul, I have no aversion to auditioning a Final Tool, or any other turntable. I like to audition equipment, and can be pretty objective about it, regardless of what equipment that I currently own.
I'd audition a Final Tool in a heartbeat, as soon as I could find the opportunity. I don't feel threatened by any turntable, and if I liked it better than my Teres, I'd say so.
However, you might consider that there is a "Teres Fan Club" not just to promote the brand, but because these users really like the sonic performance for the money. Admittedly the prices have risen over the last couple of years, but I only paid just over $2k for my Teres. That was a bargain.
From a design perspective, the Final Tool has some interesting things going for it, but some things that I don't like from a design perspective too.
I like the "mass loaded unsuspended design and I like the separate motor unit, and the basic appearance is quite pleasing.
However, in my opinion, aluminum(damped or not) is a poor choice of materials for the platter, and also for the plinth and motor housing. Also, although I applaud their use of a "re-generator" for speed controlling the AC synchronous motor, I'm not generally in favor of AC synchronous motor systems on a turntable. The non-lubricated bearing seems interesting, but I'm a proponent of an oil-bath bearing for various reasons. Use of a felt mat, is an admission of poor platter resonance characteristics, and shows the manufacturer is aware of the problems of the use of aluminum in this application.
While nothing is perfect, and this Final Tool may be a very good sonic performer, there is reason to expect that the level of performance would reflect these inadequacies in the design. From a performance perspective, the massive precision oil-bath bearing used in the Teres would predict better results, as would the acrylic platter(admittedly not perfect, but better than aluminum), and the non-cogging DC motor with mylar tape drive is notably superior(borne out in testing) to the "string drive" system that has been obsoleted in the Teres line. The combination of string-drive with an AC motor can help with reducing the vibration transfer from the motor to the platter, but creates a "stretch-release, stretch-release" condition or "slip-catch, slip-catch" condition in conjuntion with a cogging AC synchronous motor. All AC motors cog. This affects speed stability, and is in no way comparable to a precision controlled non-cogging DC motor with a non-slip, non-stretch mylar belt configuration in the Teres. While wood may not be preferred by some as a plinth material, it is without question superior to aluminum, which is not even a good selection in the metal category for sonic performance. I understand this, because I work for a company which designs and builds metal products for audio vibration control use, and brass is so far and away superior to aluminum that it isn't even worth discussing aluminum in the same context.The movement toward the use of brass in the higher models of the Teres turntables shows that the designer understands the proper use of proper metals in audio designs.
Regarding the use of Cocobolo or Rosewood in the turntable for its resonance properties, Frank Schroeder seems to think that it works pretty well on his highly-regarded tonearms. And many others seem to agree. Wood does things differently than metals, while I generally also prefer metals, a good application of wood is better than a lesser application of metals.
The use of bronze/brass in the Final Tool bearing is a good use of materials there, and is in its favor for that part.
So, from a preliminary engineering viewpoint, there is no really good reason to suspect any superior performance from the Final Tool turntable, over the Teres designs, but there is good reason to suspect that the Teres design would show superior results over the Final Tool.
I would reserve final judgment, based on auditioning. But, from a design perspective, I wouldn't expect anything notably superior from that turntable. I will say that it looks like it could be a very good entry against many of the other brands that sell thru dealers(with markups) at that $2500 price point. |
This thread has been interesting on a variety of levels. I've learned that no matter how hard you try to do something right others will criticize it. About the only thing I didn't get smoked on was my opinion of the Illustrious.
The Teres project is unique in that it was a community attempt at great playback at an affordable price. Looking at all of the early tables at their website I can understand fully that some of the attempts were perhaps less than the current praise heaped on Teres. I've only heard three tables from their lineup, a 265, 340 and 360. In each case I feel that they maintain the PRAT that makes my toes tap. I'd own one in a heartbeat among a handful of others that are also "affordable". The great thing about all of this is that there are so many good choices one can make.
I too would like to see Raul post his system. Or, at least give us a verbal description. Inquiring minds want to know. I would also like for Raul to describe his scientific methodology in detail for correctly comparing equipment. The participants at the event I attended will do this type of thing again and may adopt some of these reasoned priciples.
This is my last post to this thread. I too get tired of the bickering that always accompanies someone's considered opinion. I offered my observations in an honest fashion and have described in detail why I feel I'm unbiased. I've lived my life in the face to face world by not allowing unwarranted criticisms to go unchallenged. While cheap shots here are all too frequent these forums provide enough information to warrant staying around. |
Twl: I know that you are a strong member of the Teres Fan Club, your post speak about.
You don't have to go on the 20K tt for a better quality music/sound reproduction: for less money than your Teres you can have it: Acoustic Signature Final Tool. Why don't give you a chance to test this tt?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Well, I am not sure exactly how to respond about this "uninvolving" thing aimed at the Teres turntables.
I was a Linn LP12 owner for many years, and also worked in high-end analog stores where many of the turntables mentioned(Rega, Well-Tempered, Linn, VPI)were sold, and I've heard all the other tables mentioned too.
While my Teres isn't even anywhere near the "top line" models, my 245 w/battery supply provides much better "PRaT" and is much better in all respects than my previous LinnLP12/IttokLVII/Karma. I don't really even see the Teres lineup as being "a big jet black sound". At least not on my system. I find my Teres to be a "real toe-tapper" and find myself getting up and dancing around the room, when I play rock or pop music, and I'm riveted to my chair when I play classical and jazz.
In fact, as a previous "PRaT" fan, British TT fan, and Linn owner(as well as factory-trained Linn set-up technician, analog technician at several high-end stores, and analog user for over 30 years), I think I'm pretty qualified to address that issue. No contest, as far as I'm concerned. The microdynamics and macrodynamics which are where the emotional content of the music lives, is awesomely good, and really draws the listener into the performance. Speed stability is excellent, and conveys the time-domain info beautifully. The table has very strong "weight" and "authority", but isn't "sluggish" at all. It has great extension, and is not "lumpy" in the low end, and gives "crystal" highs. I really have very little criticism for this table, except that my 3" acrylic platter has some upper midrange reflections which cause a small bit of coloration. This can be corrected by moving up to the better platter, but I haven't been able to afford to do that. That small issue doesn't really bother me all that much.
All in all, I find my "lowly" Teres 245 to be an excellent table, especially at the price range, and I have very little urge to upgrade. I feel the same way about my modded OL Silver tonearm, and my Shelter 501 cartridge. Sure, they are not "the best in the world", but they give an excellent level of musical enjoyment which satisfies me. I admit that I sometimes feel "green with envy" that others expound about their super expensive TTs, with attendant super expensive arms and cartridges, but it isn't enough to make me go into hock trying to buy them. I am happy with what I own, and it gives me what I need. I've heard many rigs that cost alot more money that didn't do the job as well as my little analog setup. I've picked a spot on the "diminishing returns scale" that provided what I needed at a price I could live with. (High-end)Bang-for-the-(mid-priced)buck is my motto. I'm aware of TT "shoot-outs" where a little Teres 245 gave some $30k turntables some very close competition, and beat out many $10k turntables. That level of performance is plenty good enough for me, and I don't need to spend the extra $25k to try to achieve the additional small percentage in performance. If the Teres 245 was $25k, I wouldn't have bought it, but at $2500 I thought it was a very good buy.
I'll let others debate what $20k tt, $8k arm, and $6k cartridges are "best". Those are not in my purchase range. |
Don't get me started on uninvolving. My Music Hall is about an uninvolving as they come. I have the MMF-2.1 BTW. Sure the frequency extremes and soundstaging is better than a thorens 166/hadcock 242/grado gold, but that's about it. The Michell Gyro SE/Expressimo rb250/dynavector 20xh that I had the pleasure of using for a while bettered both of those (at significantly more cost). The PRaT was excellent. The soundstage was just flat. I've read that is just the flavor of the Gyro SE, but it might have been my system too (or perhaps the Hagerman Bugle phono stage). I've heard th EuroLab (Scheu) Premier II, and the backgrounds were Jet Black, and the soundstaging and imaging were excellent. I thought the PRaT was just as good. But of course more than a year had passed at that point. And *any* decent is bound to sound better than my Music Hall. :-( |
Heard good things about the Kuzma, but have never had the opportunity to listen to one. If you are in heaven with this TT, then you are done- drop out and listen to music my friend.
Michael |
Dear Hanjiang: Please accept our apologize for intrude your thread. Sorry.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Michael
Fully understand. I'm using a Kuzma Stabi myself with the Schroeder 2 and I'm already in heaven.
Cheers
Kenneth |
Ken,
Rega, Well Tempered, Linn, SME, Roksan, VPI (some of their models), and the old Nottingham Spacedeck are tables that appeal to me. I don't really care what anyone thinks of any of these tables, but this is where I am coming from. To each their own is what I say.
Michael |
Michael
Which turntables do you consider to be involving? I'm not trying to bait you or anything, just want to know where you are coming from.
Cheers
Kenneth |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " Here's a really good tip for you,that I'm sure all of us have read about at some point.Why don't you solder all your connections.I have no doubt it would be a further improvement.. " +++++
For some time I have my audio system with out any single connector, everything were soldered ( including the speaker cables to the crossover ), yes there are some improvements. but is a " pain in the ass ": it is a monolithic system: you can't do any change of anything anytime you need or you want and if you have a failfure ( somewhere ) in the system that's is a " via crucis " to fix it. But Doug can try it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Larry,
I heard a 320 and another Teres which was part of "the Teres project- DIY." it all depends on whether you like the big/jet black sound they produce- if you are after that, then the Teres is very good. I just found them uninvolving.
Michael |
Doug,I guess ,by your logic,I should sell my speakers,with external crossover(requiring additional connections)and buy a one box design.Also,I would have to sell my two chasis(power supply inside second one)Rowland 8t,because of the additional connectors involved.Not to mention 2 box transports/dacs,2 box pre-amp line/phono-stages.REDICULOUS!!Boy,I hope all your cable runs are REAL SHORT!!
Yes a single run of cable is "technically" superior,but when you actually "DO" the testing you refer to,your comments are specious at best.Do you realize how many connections are in a set-up?Why not go and buy the Walker SST stuff.That should help you,as it supposedly aids connections and signal transfer.Not to mention that I have a friend who just installed the stuff to deleterious sonic results.He now is spending hours cleaning it off.Claims are empty unless qualified with real hands on.Have you actually owned a 2.2?I doubt it!Forget that you have friends who have one.If you don't own,and dial in a technical product like a tone-arm,or complex camera,you can't possibly know it!
Here's a really good tip for you,that I'm sure all of us have read about at some point.Why don't you solder all your connections.I have no doubt it would be a further improvement for you.We could go on forever,on this subject.Tubes needing sockets vs solid state,hardwiring speakercables etc.Do you bypass your little on/off lights for the additional 1/10 watt additional power.If you're going to do it,do it right!!
You're jabs at the 2.2 are your unverified "opinion",as I gather you are spewing forth your theory about the connections.I have owned both arms,as you know.Yhe "FACT" is that I've been able to get alot closer to what I think my records sound like on an arm like the 2.2,as opposed to a SLOPPILY MACHINED,but admittedly good(NOT GREAT)Tri-planer!!
Sorry to seem so emotional,but the additional connection bit you refer to on the 2.2(as though it's a poor design choice)is a real laugher!AND NO,you can't have any of my marshmellows!!!Now I'm going home,after the gym,and suiting up my armor!! |
Raoul, I'm wondering if you would post your system? I would love to see it, after reading some of your responses. Sorry, I know this added nothing to the original thread, or topic at hand. |
SirSpeedy,
What does the military have to do with it? Military connectors are still connectors, and I doubt audio performance is on the military's list of requirements.
No connection, not even a soldered one, can match the electrical purity of a high quality wire. That's a physical impossibility for the military or anyone else. |
Dear Crespo: You are right. But Doug is an active member of the " Teres Fan Club " and I thnink the official Teres spokesperson, because he always " jump " with this answer.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
.
Mcrespo71,
.
Which models of Teres tables have your heard and with what associated components ?
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
There are no commercial reviews of a Teres because Teres doesn't sell via dealers, advertise in mags or provide free goodies to reviewers. By this logic, the review of Empirical Audio's Holophonic cables would never have been printed in the recent stereophile, as they fit all the crieria you just stated (factory direct, no advertising, no freebies). This conspiracy theory stuff is tiresome. BTW, I'm no fan of the 2 Teres TT's I heard, but that's just my opinion. |
Well done Sirspeedy.
Raul. |
Doug: +++++ " Example: You just criticized the 901. On another thread today I criticized the 901 and you jumped in to defend it! Here's a link if anybody cares to see another example of your attention-whoring hypocrisy " +++++
+++++ " You obviously care nothing about audio or helping others, or you wouldn't call the 901 a mediocre cartridge here while encouraging someone to buy it over there. How truly sad. " +++++
I don't jumped to defend anything, don't lie, I only share my experience with the 901 about what your compliant: that had tracking problems at the inner groves. I post that I don't have that problem with the 901. After my post some other people confirm, too, that he never had that problem.
Is this a whoring hypocrisy? . Come on, don't be a child.
Doug, as always, you don't have nothing in hand. Your attack is totally incongrous and dishonest. I think that anybody can see it through the link thread. HOW TRULY SAD.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I think(know)Lugnut makes some very good points.It is in his best interest,and others,to borrow from his playbook.We will ALL benefit from a philosophy of not taking every comment as GOSPEL.NONE of us,even the "Experts"(hobbyists,actually)can categorically have answers to every aspect of how to coax the best sound from every component,or even most.Even when we think we understand the physics involved.Metal vs acrylic or wood.
Since everything is STRICTLY a matter of taste,why should an innocent opinion,even an eroneous one(like Doug's opinion of termination breaks,that happen to be remedied with "MILITARY" connectors on the 2.2)be of such consequence to illicit a nasty response from some of you!!
Even my "BAITING" of Doug,with my last comment,is done with "Tongue firmly implanted in cheek",though I DO believe it.SO WHAT!!I come to this forum for the pleasure of interaction,and a potential learning experience.Sometimes good entertainment.I believe a genious like Einstein passed away years ago.Though,I do pass his old house,in Princeton,every few weeks,when going to a favorite collectors watering hole(Princeton Record Exchange).That's the closest I expect to come to ALL KNOWING PHILOSOPHY!!Except for my DAD,and third year MED student son.Boy do I love,and respect those two!!!
What REALLY turns me off,and why I'm considering dropping out of "Forum Life",though,that would be no great loss,is the REDICULOUS BABYISH/SPOILED TIT FOR TAT crap that happens too FRIGGIN(I really don't want to use that word)often.As in this series of posts.
I don't believe the original question was meant to create animosity amongst you guys.Those who take the high road,I respect you.But,in all seriousness WHO CARES if someone doesn't like or appreciate another's component of choice,or point of view.How can that possibly change the way we perceive our own system's sound.Once again,who cares.
I do not list my system,and try not to mention all of my components,when attempting to contribute to a thread.I do this for a reason.I really don't think anyone has an inkling what my system sounds like,EVEN IF THEY HAVE OWNED some of the same components.All I care about is how my stuff sounds TO ME!!
I welcome controversial disagreement,and take it as just plain "fun criticism".I may be wrong in a disagreement,on a topic,and probably AM,on occassions.I,also deserve to make my point!!The only time I feel the need to be somewhat assertive is if the opposing party gives me the impression of
I am NO boyscout,but really respect MANY people,some who I disagree with at times.I don't always agree with DOUG,but know that he is EXTREMELY knowledgeable,and entitled to his opinions.Why should anyone be FLAT OUT RUDE to other audiobuffs,when we are such a SMALL HOBBY.It is a blast that some others can,at least,articulate an opinion we want to read,agree with or not.I doubt if many of you have cancelled your subscriptions to the "MAINSTREAM" mags.They SUCK lately (as in,REALLY SUCK)!!I remember when I loved finding one in my mailbox.One that I did not go through in 15 minutes.Anyone remember those days?
Yes, there are those people who "GET OFF" from creating animosity.To me they are yutz's.They don't deserve my response,though sometimes I fall prey.People like RAUL,to me,are good spirited,and entitled to be wrong(or right).Yes I find some comments worthy of a GOOD TUSSLE.BUT THEY ADD TO THE PERSONALITY OF THIS FORUM.I don't have to agree with them,but I won't get REALLY MEAN SPIRITED unless an underhanded slur is thrown my way.We NEED each other,if at least,for the missing stimulation I used to get from controversial,and musically inspiring "LONG GONE" AUDIO JOURNALISM!!
Now let's hold hands and sing around the campfire.DOUG,please pass RAUL a marshmellow.A "crispy one,not a burnt one"!!
FAREWELL ALL!! |
You know, I think he does this just to piss you guys off. Romy was much more fun!
Regards and enjoy the music. |
Dear Lugnut: I'm glad to read your post and to know your un-biased opinion: great.
Now, why do you think Hanjiang ask for a profesional reviews on what he want to buy: TT/tonearm/cartridge?
Certainly not because the fast A/B evaluations.
Any of you really think that ( only an example ) Mr. Fremer or Mr. Atkinson do their profesional reviews in a reviewers meeting: ¡ hey, come on, come to my house for a new review audio item !. No, all of them do it individually and in the long run, not 30 seconds evaluation here.
I'm not saying that these profesional reviewers are better than any of you: what I'm saying is that their methodology and review rules are very far from a " 30 seconds evaluation ", and that brings a great value evaluation against your methodology that brings poor value evaluation.
If all of you are really satisfied with your evaluation methodology, it's fine for me, no problem, but that does not means is right.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
...when I start in this forum I post that the Shelther 901 was on the high fidelity side and not as a high end top performer, Doug was angry with my statement but 3 to 4 months later he agree on that subject. That's pretty funny. When exactly did I express this "anger". Please post a link to this ferocious post, I want to read it again. (If you have trouble finding it, try a search of your imagination.) I always feel that I'm in a fight against you all. That's your choice Raul, it's what you enjoy. Example: You just criticized the 901. On another thread today I criticized the 901 and you jumped in to defend it! Here's a link if anybody cares to see another example of your attention-whoring hypocrisy: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1080416376&openflup&33&4#33You obviously care nothing about audio or helping others, or you wouldn't call the 901 a mediocre cartridge here while encouraging someone to buy it over there. How truly sad. |
Just so that everyone here knows my situation with regard to the products tested recently and referred to here I offer the following. I do not own nor plan to buy a Teres turntable. I have been critical of Teres in another thread but overall believe it to be a superior design. I love the 360 as it incorporates many of the features alluded to in Raul's preferences. It is a glorious sounding table IMHO. I don't own or plan to own an Illustrious but have a lot of experience with one. I don't own a Schroder, Triplanar or Graham arm nor do I plan on purchasing one. I don't own a ZYX or Lyra cartridge and don't plan on purchasing one of these either. I don't have a horse in this race or a dog in this fight. Group pressure simply didn't exist here and I'm about as immune to it as one gets. Of course, I really couldn't be insulting of any of the gear we listened to because it's all really good and much better than my own. I will concede that perhaps this group likes/seeks similar end results and if this is a bias then every person that posts to these threads are biased. We know what we want. It's just how do we get there from here. I was invited to this event because kind people believed it would be an experience I would enjoy and appreciate. I enjoyed myself more during this long weekend than I ever have before in auditioning any other audio components. I appreciate what I was privelidged to participate in because I know how rare this opportunity really was. My personal analog gear consists of a Linn LP12/Ittok/Sumiko Blue Point Special. Obviously I'm not in the same league as the other attendees but I've been in this hobby longer than most, never bailed on the vinyl format and have listened to most of the upper end analog front ends available. I may have many personal defects but my hearing is very good and my audio memory is better than most. In my system and with my income I would order a Schroder 2 and purchase a Sumiko Celebration and mount it on my Linn. I know that this group would approve of my decisions since these items would be a huge leap from where I am now and clearly on the same path toward an eventual Reference and Universe. They would all be glad for me just as I am glad for them with their own personal choices that I firmly believe are on the right path toward audio excellence. I think the only opinions I expressed that were negative was my low opinion of the Illustrious and having a much higher opinion of the other arms over the Graham. That's really not an insult to the Graham at all as it's a fine arm. To my ears I liked what I liked and honestly tried to give an unbiased opinion. Comments like needing to rest a piece of vinyl for 12 to 24 hours before repeating a play would require one to rely on their audio memory over an immediate A/B or either have multiple copies of the same recording. Even then we all know that records of later manufacture are likely less likely to be a good as an earlier pressing which would lead to even more, "yeah, but's". We did do extended listening with each combination after critical evaluation. Sure, we didn't have the luxury of having something playing for a couple of weeks and then make a change. Even that method is subject to criticism as we all know with the "your ears got used to it" blather. Believe what you want to believe but the group tried really hard to be honest in my estimation. Doug owns a Triplanar and talked about the merits of the Schroder. Steve owns a Triplanar and ordered a Schroder after this audition and probably will keep his current arm. One man is buying a 360 and another is likely going to do a custom upgrade of his Teres from its current configuration. Still, another is jumping off the audio treadmill and saying enough is enough. I'm staying put where I am even though everything we auditioned is a giant leap up from where I am. |
Dear friends: I think that the problem with this forum is that it is a " biased " forum.
Here exist too many Fan Clubs with all the problems and close-in limitations of any Fan CluB: Teres Fan Club, ZYX Fan Club, Schroeder Fan Club, deaf people cartridge Fan Club, VTA Fan Club, inaccurate " equalizers " Fan Club, horns Fan Club, etc....
All these Fan Clubs stay with the same old paradigms and when any one of them confront a new paradigm, this one is like a " evil/devil " one and stay away, with out think about, from that " devil ". This is not a mature position and does not help to the development of the quality music/sound reproduction.
++++++ " You take a comment from somebody that you don't know, with absolutely no detail or supporting evidence and hold it up as fact. " +++++++
This was what Teres post: so, Wildwildwes is only " somebody ", because is not an active member of the Teres Fan Club. Very sad to " hear " this opinion.
Teres I'm not against your TTs, I have a lot of respect for you like a product designer. You choose your trade-off criteria design. As you know I already " heard " one of your TTs ( I'm not repeat what I already post about ) and I heard severals heavy mass all-metal TTs, ( in the same conditions ) almost all beats yours or almost any wood/acrilyc TT design. The Wildwildwes post only confirm my statement about.
Dear Teres, you are heavy biased through your design it is almost imposible to have a civilized dialogue about, please do it a favor: buy an Acoustic Signature Final Tool
TT ( third from the AS TT line ) and do a private ( only you ) evaluation against any of your TTs, this is the only way where yo can break your old paradigms.
+++++ " As Lugnut mentioned, cartridge/arm synergy is vital. With UNIverses on the TriPlanar VII and Schroeder Reference we had to A/B the same track 5 or 6 times before anyone would say a word. They were that close. This didn't happen with any other comparisons we made, 30 seconds was often enough. " ++++++
This is a Doug post, who is one of the: ++++ " group of experienced audiophiles " ++++++ Doug, btw no one of those tonearms are my cup of tea.
The A/B evaluations with LP are not of good value: when you play a track you have to wait between 12 to 24 hours for the vinyl track return to its original condition.
This group evaluations had a great fun but poor value, there are conscience or inconscience bias presure between the group members: the group force to any one to choose what they want or what they think.
Any serious evaluation have to be made individually, this is a must, with any external opinion till you do your invidually evaluation: this have a great value.
30 seconds was often enough: in 30 seconds you only know that both item sounds different and that one of them impress you more than the other, but don't really tell you which is better and why is better. For your individually evaluation will conclusive you have to do the evaluation in the " long run ", it is the only way for to have a great value opinion, other way you have a poor value opinion. I give an example: when I start in this forum I post that the Shelther 901 was on the high fidelity side and not as a high end top performer, Doug was angry with my statement but 3 to 4 months later he agree on that subject.
I always feel that I'm in a fight against you all. Any of the threads on this forum it is not a contest: why you put on this way, always ?, it is not important who win or who is right: what is important is what all of us could learn on any subject in music favor, that's all.
I think that all of us can do it a favor: try to post un-biased opinions. I know that this is more easy to say that to do but I think that we all have to try and in this way everybody wins.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Pontus,I am happy to see a real insight into the psychology of "The goings on here".Your points,to me are refreshing,and appreciated.Your perspective is a lesson to me,and any others of open mind.Thanks! |
Hello:
Claiming that a product comparison has no value because components were not at their optimum reminds me of the old Linn claim. "The table was not set up right", if the Linn was not prefered.
The enthusiastic members here should not be insulted like this. They want as much as anyone to hear the differences in components. I believe they too will set the best conditions they can. What makes anyone else better at it. Does anyone have credentials in Proper Set-Upology?
If there is any "twisting" its with groundless critisisms and endorsments.
I have tried several tables and arms. I found the Teres and now Schreoder products to give me the best performance. For my money nothing beats a Teres. For lots of money the Schroeder gives you a wonderful product. I used this forum to gather some of my research on new products. I'm glad I did. My prefernces are conclusive, for now. Regards.
|
Raul, Your duplicity is actually a bit shocking. Lets contrast a few of your statements:
1) "Yes, the Galiber and the Red Point beats Teres". So when may I ask did you evaluate these three turntables? What were the circumstances? Were the components optimally matched? Of course it's really unlikely that you have heard any of the three turntables, but yet your comments are suprisingly authoratative.
2) "I think that this conclusion is a premature one... your conclusion is not really a conclusive one... other way any evaluation was a premature one and a faulty one with no value at all"
These were your comments about a very well controlled, side by side evaluation where all of the variables were kept the same except for the item being evaluated. Not only that but it was conducted with a group of experienced audiophiles, with a variety of music and with very clear consensus from the group. Yep, there will always be the possibility of flaws in both method and conclusions. But this evaluation was about as good as it gets.
How can you possibly hold both positions? You take a comment from somebody that you don't know, with absolutely no detail or supporting evidence and hold it up as fact. To make matters worse when the lack of facts was pointed out you simply repeated the same baseless assertion.
Then you have the audacity to claim that Doug and Lugnuts evaluations are flawed and of no value??
You certainly have well illustrated that something is indeed flawed. |
Frank,your point is well taken.I think I'll save my travel money and put it in an "Audio Account".I can probably shave off a few months of saving for your REF arm that way.Good for both of us,if I ever get to hear one.No sarcasm intended here,as I am truly fascinated with your design.
Regards from New Jersey |
Lugnut: ***** " as practicably possible. " *****
I agree with that. Tks for your answer.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul,
This is my last reply to you. We tried all of the mentioned cartridges on all of the mentioned tonearms. I was there and you weren't. I liked the Universe over the Olympus but only by a very small margin. I would love to own either one. Clearly, to me anyway, at half the price and equal performance the Universe is the best buy.
Regarding your twisted logic you allude to perhaps certain tonearms preferring other turntables which, of course, means that perhaps some cartridges like some turntables more than others. With your method of comparrison it would be impossible to A/B anything. It would require multiples of the numbers of tables, arms and cartridges of what we had assembled. Doing such a large project would be financially impossible without sponsorship of the likes of Bill Gates. Also, the time required to change so many possible combinations would render the A/B'ing meaningless because those evaluating would be required to rely on their audio memory rather than a quick and honest A/B of the same tracks.
You may not agree with me or others, but what we did was about as scientific as practicably possible. |
Hi Twl: Even what you don't eat do harm to you.
I wonder why.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Doug: Maybe you have to read again my post. My point is not if the Two or the Graham tonearms are better one to the other ( btw, any two tonearms ), maybe the Two really beats the Graham: that's fine for me.
My point is that if we have to do an evaluation between two differents tonearms we have to have some rules about, one of that rules is that each tonearm has to be mated with the audio items where it shows his best performance: that's all. Yes, I know that your rules are different but I think that that kind of " massive " evaluations are not conclusive other that you and your friends really have great fun with it. Nothing wrong with that.
Doug, I thing that you know that I have severals TTs, tonearms and cartridges, I own all those items not because I'm a " collector item ", I own all those stuff because I really want to know the differences between them.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Vetterone: I really like the Merlin speakers. Good for you.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Lugnut: I think that you only " read " but don't understand any thing about my post.
I write about the phono cartridges and your answer is about tonearms. You are talking about a different subject, maybe this is why you speak about my " twisted logic ".
BTW, why " twisted logic " ? can you explain ?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I've always thought that Raul and Romy were one in the same. |
Hi Raul,
You've posted in the past that the Graham 1.5 and its upgrades are just over-priced, mis-engineered knockoffs of the Audiocraft arm. I agree.
So I assume you're just trying to encourage a fuller discussion. Okay.
Tonearm wire/cable
The Schroeders (and TriPlanar) have single runs of wire. The Graham has multiple breaks and connections, and some of those connections are quite poor. Breaks in any signal path are electrical roadblocks of course. When the signal level is this low such roadblocks become audible. Neither a cartridge change nor any other change short of a hard rewire could alter this fundamental weakness of the Graham design.
Cartridge matching
The ZYX's are an excellent mass/compliance match for a Graham. 9-11 Hz in both modes.
Other cartridges
No one's heard everything, but we have also listened to Koetsu's and Shelters. Same result every time, with every group: the Schroeder wins unanimously.
Sometimes better is better. |
Whats the matter Raul, didn't your daddy pay enough attention to you while you were physically growing up?
Or is it more complicated than that?
|
Just imagine if Romy the Cat and Raul were both posting on the same thread!
I don't think I could wrap my brain around that thought! |
Raul,
We can split hairs as finely as lawyers if you wish but nonetheless I heard what I heard. I would buy the Schroder 2 over the Graham. It seems the only conclusive opinions are those that you have.
I did however forget that the Lyra had only about 50 hours on it while the ZYX was fully broken it. Also, the Schroder arms were all brand new while the Triplanar was fully broken in as was the Graham. The Schroder 2 that we listened to had a graphite arm wand and retailed for $2200, not the $2400 you priced it at.
Following your twisted logic will lead one to not have any acceptable opinions, ever. Of course, you must be right being Raul and I offer my sincerest apology. |
Hello sirspeedy,
Did you notice the whinking smiley at the end of that last line? No sarcasm intended.
I like to be called by my name as much as I like to call others by theirs, not their monikers. But that´s just me, your moniker wouldn´t keep me from communicating with you. I actually like it.
Developing a "buyers emotion" for more than just a tonearm will be easy if you come to the RMAF in Denver. I´ll be wearing a tag with my name on it, hehehe(couldn´t resist that one :-)
Cheers,
Frank |
Dear Lugnut: ***** " At $10,000 the Lyra Olympos, single layer coil version cartridge was bettered by the Universe to these ears. " *****
For any one can give a conclusion like yours, we have to do the evaluation in the same conditions: each cartridge mated with the TT/tonearm combination which it had her best performance, other way any evaluation was a premature one and a faulty one with no value at all. Your conclusion tell us only that the ZYX mates better with the TERES/Two combo than the Lyra, that's all.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
