Tube Vs. SS Preamps

No and no.

It's about musicality.

@fuzztone 's pithy reply is well stated imo

high level solid state is not fatiguing at all, if well matched through to the speakers

but top tier tube gear gives a degree of bloom, palpability, richness of tone, and expansiveness of imaging that can sometimes be elusive for all solid state systems

I’m 73. I started with tubes, went to SS, low powered SS Receiver, then powerful McIntosh SS Amp and SS Pre for inefficient speakers for a few years. Returned to tubes and efficient horn speakers, couldn’t be happier.

All along, I always had 30-35 wpc tubes set up as alternate.

Each and every ’listen-off’ I had here with friends, everybody picked LP over CD and Reel to Reel over LP. 

Each and every time everybody picked tubes over SS.

I sum it up as: analog gets the overtones ’right’.

I just noticed, you are highlighting your question toward Preamps.

I had McIntosh SS C28 Preamp, highly regarded by many. I much prefer my McIntosh Tube Tuner/Preamp mx110z to the C28 (or any prior Preamp).

mx110z’s MM Phono (2) is wonderful, I use a SUT for MC to keep using the mx110z MM Phono.

you also get McIntosh's Versatile Mode Switch, balance, loudness for low volume,  ...

If it died, even though they have gotten pricey, I would get another one without hesitation, ship it from seller directly to Audio Classics!

Typically there used (30 years ago and earlier) to be fairly large differences between the two camps. But they step by step converged closer to real music and to reflect more the designers intent as opposed to detailed but harsh versus warm and lacking detail. Of course it also depends on the price range. Inexpensive stuff is made with components chosen for cost and not sound quality.

However, there are still some residual differences in well implemented tube components versus well implemented solid state. My evidence is that over the last 50 years (starting with the preamp), slowly, one by one all of my equipment have become tubed and my system now sounds an order of magnitude better than in the past. There is a midrange bloom and authentic character to the bass I haven’t hears from solid state. My equipment imparts an emotional connection I have never been able to achieve otherwise.

On the other hand, if you are looking for the absolute last word in detail (minuscule difference) and slam, many people still like solid state. They also state not wanting to have to replace tubes (typically every 3,000 hours or more). My own theory is that some of slam is artificially created with a lean midrange and very fast transients SS amps can give you. But to me that robs you of some of the rhythm and pace (the emotional connection and musicality).

To me, the preamp is the most critical piece of equipment, and was my first to choose tubed... Audio Research... my preferred brand. You can see my systems by clicking on my ID.

@greg7 if you decide to try a tube preamp with your solid state amps, treat yourself to a nice one if you can.  One piece that never  gets rotated out is my triode 6SN7 based tube preamplifer. Works amazingly well and musical with SS or Tube amps.    

If you’re not sure whether you want tube or SS sound, check out the 6H30 based preamps. Great tube! Super clean, linear, and resolving.

If you want a more traditional "sweet" tube sound, I'd stick to those that use 6922 or 6SN7 in their circuit. 

I use an MSB S-200 SS power amp, and a Herron Audio tube preamp; it's a great preamp, cause it looks like it's SS - no tubes sticking out anywhere and the sound is about as neutral as you can get with tubes; works very well with the MSB as that is a very uncolored amp.... I let the speakers supply the warmth I like....

@jjss49 perfectly worded my observations. 

@mulveling 's advice matches my experience. After using I number of 6922/6DJ8 and other "roller" preamps, I found more satisfaction with a 6H30-based design, used in many BAT & Audio Research models. Some may see a downside in no compatibility with all the legendary, exotic vintage tubes. I've overcome that by wearing the Amperex Bugle Boy logo on a tshirt while I listen to my 6H30s. Cheers,

Spencer

I like Macs most of them.. I love the older C11,20,22 or the MX110z they are all  wonderful when restored or not, depends.. I really like some of the SS pres . C45, MX120, 121, and 150. I like my C2500 too, what a nice preamp.. Macs are simple to please. Use Telefunken valves in their preamps.. If you do work on the units stay away from yellow polly cap rebuilds.. They were built with PIO, rebuild with PIO.. LEAVE the Black Beauties..

Regards

As others have described above, I find tube to offer sound with better texture, saturated harmonics and a presentation that seems to bloom naturally into the listening space.  I think good solid state can sound smooth, natural and lacking in artificial edginess, but, I tend to find something missing that makes the sound seem flat and less engaging.  I own a pretty decent solid state linestage (Levinson No. 32) but, I prefer my custom-built tube linestage (310 tube).  

While you may get a "taste" of tube sound with a tube linestage, I think the electronic component that has the biggest impact is the amplifier.  The right tube amplifier will make a huge difference (the wrong one likewise will sound quite bad).  It is harder to find the amp that will mate well with a particular speaker than it is to match any other components, but,  that is, to me, the big step in improving one's system.

In one of the old Vacuum Tube Valley magazines I remember reading an article about the supposed advantages of tubes vs solid state audio. Among several listed reasons for tube gear "sounding" better was that tubes emphasize even order harmonics, whereas solid state emphasizes odd order harmonics. 

My experience is the sound is different.

My initial systems were entry level SS and I acquired McIntosh C2600 tube preamplifier - it was a dramatic improvement.  Using an analogy the music was clearer - I could easily hear specific instruments in the context of the song and had a better sound stage of where the musicians were playing.

I've also heard very good SS preamps.  I recently auditioned one as I consider upgrading and evaluating a pure linestage preamp with separate phono stage.

Listening side by side to a series of songs, the sound was different from the McIntosh and to my ears it was 'clearer' and frankly my first concern was would the sound be irrating so I played some songs where there could be harshness.

Ultimately, I think the difference is the audible nature of distortion.  SS can have much less distortion and a whether tube or SS a well designed tube preamp uses the distortion within its sound singature. 

You are asking the wrong question.  What tubes offer that SS cannot compete with is space.  You hear a soundstage where vocals and instruments have their own space.  While this is a generalization, that is the difference between many reference level comparisons.  While some like the 6H30 tube sound, to me it sounds SSish so in my experience, then just get a SS components.  The real question is what are you looking for from your system and in what price range.

Once you know what you are looking for then you need to audition them.  Take your time and enjoy the search.

Happy Listening.

In fact, you ask others to describe the sound which you never heard, I will say it is very difficult. Usually on the forums,they all have some kinds of listening,and above of that,they exchange the comments.

I know your question,which is : After so many years listen on SS amp only,you want to explore something new,and see if the tube sound is better for you. right?

If that is the case,you gotten go and listening by yourself somehow and go back asking the question. That is the normal procedure,in my opinion.

"... the supposed advantages of tubes vs solid state audio. Among several listed reasons for tube gear "sounding" better was that tubes emphasize even order harmonics, whereas solid state emphasizes odd order harmonics"

Nelson Pass on two of his SS amplifiers: "It is perhaps not oversimplifying to say that the [Pass Lab] XA25 has a 3rd harmonic character and the [First Watt] F8 has a very 2nd harmonic personality," -- https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-43-first-watt-f8-power-amplifier-page-2

running a nice class a amp with a very nice 6sn7 based tube preamp with a tube rectifier and have never enjoyed music more having tried every other option. 

biggest impact is the projection of the sound into the space of the room as if it were a floating 3 dimensional landscape.  

also a smoothness and naturalness to the sound with impeccable openness and transparency.  

never will i be without.  

What is "fatigue free" ?

Fatigue free, in my opinion , is talking of your ears, not the body.

Your body definitely will fatigue after several hours listening, however, your ear  is still enjoying  and want to have more time.that is fatigue free.

Get a Schiit Freya + and have the ability to switch between tubes and passive...great sounding sophisticated preamp for el cheapo.

Make sure that any tube preamp that you are considering has an output impedance compatible with your amplifiers.

Well, let's see.  The REVERED Marantz tube pre-amp was followed by the REVERED Audio Research tube pre-amp, that in its day, was said to be the best pre-amp ever produced.

Since then, they have improved it over and over.

Evidently, they know what they are doing and my suggestion is to TRY ONE IN YOUR ROOM and see if it fits your system.  YOU many not like it, but it seems that everyone from the Audio press to many customers think there is something there.

OR, they could all be 'wrong' and lying.  One way to find out, I guess...

Cheers!

Tube rectified,regulated 6sn7 tube pre,with class A amps is a wonderful combination.  To my ears,sounds great.  Absolutely no listening fatigue.  

When I decided to get really invested, I bought a demo McIntosh C2600 tube preamp and matched it to a pair of MC611 mono blocks. Could not be more pleased with the results. FWIW

Building my system, I wanted components that just played what was there.  The solid state preamp quit.  I have horn speakers with a DAC that puts out 2.0V.  My amp is at full output with 1.25V.  I worked with Vacuum Tube Audio and have a passive tube buffer playing right now.  It changed the sound in a pleasant way.  Less sharpness on the top,pleasing vocals, piano(properly recorded) sounded better but not the full tube sound.  With minor changes this preamp can be turned into a 6AU7 based preamp.  However, I may not want to use it that way because of gain.  When streaming there is so much difference in volume of each song that sometimes, I still only need 1/4 volume.other times 1/2 volume.  I have not worked on audio equipment so I am scared to try experimenting myself!  Bottom line is I am happy with the sound right now. 

+2 On the Schiit Freya + preamp.

One more thing worth mentioning--some tube linestages do not play well with some solid state amps even when the output impedance of the linestage is low enough that the two should be electrically compatible.  I don't know why that is the case, but, on several occasions, I found this to be true.  The "bad" sound is an overly warm and muddled sound that is also dynamically constricted (the so-called tube sound on steroids).  It might also just be the case that tube linestages, as is the case with all tube gear, vary much more in sound than do top solid state gear which tends to sound much more uniform.  A trial is before purchase is highly recommended for all gear, and it is particularly required for tube gear.  

I completely recommend a tube pre-amp. I have a McIntosh C2700 and couldn’t be happier with the sound. 

Spencer and those using 6H30 tubes, you can indeed tube roll the 6H30s. The Russian Reflektor 6h30s from late 1970's to early 1980 have a special sound, much enhanced over the standard Supertube 6h30's. I used them in Ayon equipment. I still have a few pair of the Reflektors from 1979 and 1980. I have moved on from Ayon due reliability issues with Ayon. Now using 300B in Vinni Rossi Integrated. PM me if interested

Joe

@gammajo Interesting! Never heard the Reflektors. Anybody try them in BAT preamp? Cheers,

Spencer

Sbank, at least for they took things to the proverbial new level, more natural, dynamic, holographic, organic, and real used in Ayon pre-amp in sensitive system. I assume they would be worth a try in the BAT. The 1985 and newer Reflectors did not do this.

@gammajo 

I have ordered the new Vinnie Rossi Brama. January delivery .

I new with tubes. I am not sure if I have made the right decision 

I have a Soulution INT 330 ( for sale ) and I am very pleased with it.

Are the stock tubes fine ?
What would be your recommandations  ?

I have read the new  Western Electric 300B  would be fine.

Dogmatic approach to the question is wrong. Individual preference should be on the first place. Personality, I prefer tubes in pre amplification. I moved to tubes from SS in my main system about 15 years ago and never looked back, however I still have SS preamps in my two secondary systems so I’m getting proof of tubes superiority any time I’m listening there.
Recently I had chance to talk to one of my kid’s friends who appeared to be an audio Ingener… :) Young fellow has own opinion on SS vs Tubes….He said that old guys love tube sound cause it’s reminds them sound how it was long time ago, when they were young, when grass was greener and candies sweeter, but It has nothing to do with sound quality.. he also mentioned that his generation prefers SS as it’s their “greener grass” and “sweeter candies” :)

Try something really cheap to get a feel for it. The Schiit Vali 2 is $150 and definitely gives you a taste of the tube flavor. I found the soundstage way overperformed at the price. You could even put it in the chain after your existing preamp.

MaxWave. Wow, congratulations! If what my guys are saying is correct the Bramma should be amazing. I know I love my L2ise better than anything else that I have heard. The stock tubes are good, but I use the Takatsuki TA-300 Bs.The Taks are really nice. Many Rossi users have reported these Taks as best. I have not heard the new Western Electrics personally. enjoy!

Joe

Parts Connection usually has the Taks at a discount

@gammajo 

many thanks

the way I understand it, the Brama can be used in tube mode or SS mode

( class A ) at a click of a button .

Someone should never buy , before he has heard it ,  I know.

I hope it will be a nice discovery.

@greg7 

Sorry for this hijacking.

Taks are the best. Maybe even beyond NOS WEs.

Tube preamp with SS amp is a traditional and frequently fine combination.

Most tube preamps smooth out most SS amps.

What is "fatigue free" ?

@vinowino Its a lack of audible higher ordered harmonics (which, if audible, are perceived by the ear as harshness and brightness) and also low intermodulation distortion; intermodulations also contribute to harshness and brightness.

Tubes are still being made because so many solid state products made over the last 60 years are harsh and bright.

@atmasphere 

ralph, if you don't mind a somewhat related sidebar question - i am curious to know what you believe to be the source/reason/technical underpinning behind top level tube gear being able to generally (exceptions exist of course) provide a greater sense of air and vast imaging (size, depth in particular) - compared to similarly high level solid state gear?  

i am curious to know what you believe to be the source/reason/technical underpinning behind top level tube gear being able to generally (exceptions exist of course) provide a greater sense of air and vast imaging (size, depth in particular) - compared to similarly high level solid state gear?  

I know what you mean. IMO it has to do with the distortion signature- neither a tube or solid state preamp will be making any significant distortion but its a simple fact that distortion is inescapable.

Its been shown that the lower ordered harmonics serve two functions both of which are helpful. The first is that if they are there at sufficient amplitude, they can mask higher ordered harmonics that otherwise are perceived as brightness.

The 2nd and more important function is that somehow the 2nd and 3rd harmonic are helpful to the ear in some way in helping it to perceive soundstage width and depth. You might be easily convinced that this is some sort of effect rather than being neutral, but if you listen to a direct microphone feed and compare that to the actual musical performance you find that the sound stage is simply being presented in a more natural fashion.

I think more research could be done in this area, but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. But it is a documented phenomena.

Freya + will give you both. If you want tubes turn the tube buffer on if you don’t want tubes turn them off. I feel tubes are vital when streaming. Some or most digital streaming that is not run through tubes feels like razor blades to my ears, listener fatigue can set in fast. I have rolled tubes to find the sound I like too.

This week I replaced my c-j Classic 2SE with a Zesto Leto preamp and the difference was not subtle.    It was staggering.   Having that component in my system has cemented my belief all along that the preamp is the most important link in the chain.  Speakers ?   Not as much ,  putting the Zesto in place made it seem like I upgraded my speakers ..... incredible sounding piece of gear.   

I always find this TUBE vs SS discussion entertaining.....If not silly. After near 50 years as an audiophile and 40 years in the HiFi business, I've found there is as much musical difference among various SS and tube  amps and preamps as there is between SS products and tube products.......If there wasn't, there would be far fewer manufacturers and no need for reviews, magazines and forums such as this.

Mush more important, is the combination of devices......You can buy all the amps, preamps, DACs, streamers, turntables, cartridges and speakers you want. Buy the most expensive and highly rated products on the market, put them all together and in many, if not most cases, the total system will sound terrible. 

This is the VERY difficult part of Audiophilia......There are hundreds of thousands of combinations....And hitting one that works for you might be like hitting the Lottery.

But THAT'S what makes the hobby so much fun......It's the hunt!

Very true, even though many products measure perfectly they all sound different.  I have three preamps in front of me.   All pretty good , they have their own character and presentation of the. music.   

From personal experience these differences are a little more pronounced with tube gear .  My newest preamp doesn't really sound like anything but I'm getting more of everything if that makes sense....

What ever flavor you like I think the preamp is the most important link in the chain as it can often be the bottleneck of a great system.

I run VTA SP-13 preamp which runs an Aikido line stage.  It was intended to drive a high input impedance tube amp.  A Dynaco ST-70 had an imput impedance of 330k ohms.   But I run my preamp into a solid-state active crossover, which has an input impedance of only 10k ohms.  That was a major problem when I first got it.

I went back to the designer and told him about the input impedance I had to deal with and he immediately knew the problem and the fix.   The coupling caps on the preamp output were at .33 uf.  He sent me some 1.5 uf caps to add on, which fixed the problem.

After living with super low distortion SS products from Exposure, Benchmark, and Bel Canto, I actually find that tube gear leads to earlier onset of fatigue, even when the tube gear is of relatively low distortion.

You are asking the wrong question.  What tubes offer that SS cannot compete with is space.  You hear a soundstage where vocals and instruments have their own space.

Except this just isn’t the case when concerning reference quality SS components. And much, if not most, entry-level tube gear fails to produce that sense of “space.”