Rega Naia weighs next to nothing at cool $20k. Mike Fremer loved it so I am sure it's class a level product.
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@drbond . Perspective .. 25MM car; few hundred thousand not so bad ;) |
I'm bemused by the fact that keyboard cowboys who have never heard a product know so much about it. No one has to buy a better turntable. If you don't want to spend $300,000 don't! Turntables, unlike cars, or boats are not mass produced. Everything on them is expensive. If you can make one as good, but for less money, put yourself in the upper class building one and then finding someone dumb enough to buy it.
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Do you think i am a fool living in ignorance and poverty because my basic system optimized is 1000 bucks value seriously ? I replied because your post suppose that experimenting a new piece of gear is knowledge...But buying a new car is not mechanical knowledge even if someone buy a formula1... Knowledge will be learning everything about the car not buying it ... The same is true for turntable and acoustics... 😊😊 Bill Gates for example buying gear instead of learning basic acoustic himself because he had no time to do it and keeping his system at the highest gear cost possible would be in my opinion the fool living in ignorance and poverty of thinking because of obsessive greed and compulsive idea ( which idea could it be here apart for buying 300,000 turntable ? ) ... 😁 Anyway Gates will buy the best acoustician on earth for sure to match the turntable... My answer is obsession for turntable at this price is ignorance if not poverty in money it is poor thinking ... By the way i did not doubt this turntable is a good one ...😉
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I dont bash high cost turntable no more than i bash any high end system... Do you know how to read a post in context? I contradict someone who think that a turnatable of 300,000 dollars is a piece of gear we must buy if we have the money instead of a toy Gates could buy ... I answered to this :
What is audiophile knowledge cannot be bought... It must be learned by experiments and studying , the electrical,mechanical and acoustical basics ... Poverty is not only about the money purse... Thats my point answering this sentence.. Where do i bash high end product here ? anybody can buy the gear he want if it is for the better... But basic audio knowledge had nothing to do with price tags . NONE ...When knowledge is there we can use for the best any system...This is knowledge...Not the gear price... We are here to enjoy music in the best relative acoustic conditions according to our purse for sure... But calling ignorant and poor someone who can afford a high end piece of excessively high price is meaningless.. Acoustics rule audio design not price tags.
If my neighbour because he can buy one, buy a formula One car to go to work and say to me over our garden fence smiling looking at my car that i am the one ignorant and poor because i cannot buy one , what do you think i will answer? Do you think my answer will be a bashing of the formula One design and cost ?😊 By the way i know that ghdprentice Is a wise guy and will never call Ignorant and poor someone unable to afford this turntable. But Bill Gates will ...I answered him...
By the way thinking that ONLY money for buying gear can give us a TOP audio system is not even wrong... Knowledge is more useful in all aspects thats my point ..
«The text must be read on the paper context not from your brain biases»-- Anonymus reader 🕶
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I think you are just not cognizant of the concentration of wealth the U.S. economy - and many but not all - capitalist countries in the world have experienced in the past 2 or 3 decades. When you literally could not spend all your money on a daily basis fast enough to exhaust it if your life depended on it, then such conspicuous and gratutitous consumption becomes simply a pleasant way to pass some of the time. Nothing to get too excited about...
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If one has the wherewithal to drop major $s' into their pursuit....fine. Their $s' help push the SOTA further along....I'd hope, in any case. If they can make a buck out of it, good....but it'd be nice if the tech involved would eventually filter down to us grunts....which has happened previously.... Look at the specs of '50's ~ '70's equipment of Then v. Now, and keep in mind the 'relative costs' adjustments. Even some 'lo-fi' items are better overall....certainly smaller & lighter.... *G*
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If somebody informed an individual they are now able to look at properties worth $5M they would be quite excited about such a prospect of the Homelife Environment they could select up to that outlay. Not all will max out on the allowed for budget There are some who learn a $1/4M vehicle is an option for a means of Transport, not all will make the purchase. In relation to a Hobby, the idea of spending a substantial sum on a means to be entertained, seems ludicrous to many, a TT costing $200K - $400K does look excessive. There are home entertainment rooms now being produced or swimming pools that cost 2-3 x the above TT costing and is merely a different means to a form of entertainment. Funny how these slip under the Radar without a raised eyebrow, $1M to invite a few friends over for a Movie Night or Pool Party. When certain types of individual want to amuse themselves and additionally impress, there is not an easily identifiable Threshold to be seen on the spending , the purse strings seemingly become very loose. |
@jasonbourne71 That shows you what the mark-UP is on these components! |
The problem is not our freedom to buy anything...You missed the point... The problem is calling "poor and ignorant" any audiophile who care more about basic knowledge than obsessive consumerism...Inducing this obsessive behaviour conditioned by marketers, this erroneous idea that price tags define audiophile people journey as an endless race, instead of the wise search for a good sound when listening music by studying very basic acoustics concepts that define all aspects of sound as we must perceived them in balance with one another in a room ... Balance of acoustics factors exist for any system at any price. This does not means that my systems at low cost even very well balanced and satisfying will rival all costlier system, their comparison will be related to many acoustics parameters which must be experienced and not merely to the price of each pieces of gear as a sum of money... Ignorance is the main state in general in any group of people. Audiophiles are not an exception. But my moto is we can learn. 😊 «I can buy »--Bill Gates «Nobody buy Knowledge »--Anonymus philosopher
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Indignation about expensive luxury products that we can't afford is completely relative. You have contempt for someone who would pay $300,000 for a turntable. Imagine how a subsistance farmer in many parts of the third world would feel about the audio gear that our forum members buy every day. We spend the equivalent of several years, or even decades, of their salary on a DAC or a stupid phono cartridge. It's obscene. |
It seems i am not clear in english...😊 I did not have contempt at all for anybody able to buy hyper costly audio product near 1 million bucks...I say that to be clear... On the opposite i want an invitation to listen to his system...😊 I dont want to judge people on their bank account( save those who claim to be philanthopist when in many cases it is false Gates being with Rockfeller evident case of hypocrisy)
Is it clear ?😊
But i refuse the audiophile propaganda linking linearly S.Q. with price tags marketing idiotic race to upgrades without end which is used to separate those who knows pieces of gear branded name and those who do not then naming them "poor and ignorant" ... my point is simple: ONLY ACOUSTICS concepts and parameters controls can give us TOP experience relatively proportional for sureto the gear pieces design quality and synergy ... ( acoustics here is NOT MERE room acoustic by the way, we must open an acoustics book to understand this point, if someone do not understand at all the timbre concept dimensions at play how can he could improve it at optimal cost and for the optimal result, not understanding what to do next ? ) .. 😁
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The Subsistence Farmer used as an example will have the identical desire to be amused/entertained, the same Farmer may even go to the extent of putting the Families Security at stake in their persistence of being entertained by a participation that comes with a cost, that will diminish the coffers or even be the cause of dept. Usually the individual has a developing obsession and many are skewed in their balanced approach, the mind is now way beyond a place where the obsession > compulsion was once able to be controlled. |
I'm probably not alone in thinking that a cheaper vinyl rig carefully set up by someone who knows what he is doing is likely to sound far better than the most expensive one to be found set up by someone who does not. But if that dreadfully expensive TT is set up by someone who does know all the tricks, I'll take comfort in remembering it will only sound a small amount better than the first case. |
@mahgister +1 for your post at 9:37 AM! More knowledge and less foolishness should be the goal when deciding what to buy! Marketing is the inverse of this! |
My comment was on wealth bashing. I have had the privilege of working with a lot of folks that could afford a $300K turn table if they wanted one. Obviously, most do not. But as a group, these are incredibly intelligent and hard working people who’s commitment to their jobs completely dominates their lives. When I talk about intelligent, I am not kidding… their incredible scope of knowledge, ability for abstract thought, and insite into the world makes your average Joe seem like a different species. Most are humble, job focused, and incredibly hard working, which is what makes them so valuable. Many of these are C level executives, founders, engineers, although I have known a lot of professors as well… the majority of, before someone gets off on this one, honest individuals with outstanding ethics and morality who basically work 80 hours a week and create thousands of jobs and enormous wealth for their companies and there employees. The idea that these folks are fools or not worthy of their money is simply absurd. Notice the wealth created in the US? There are those that are unethical and greedy and unworthy. But for that couple percent it is inappropriate to label the 98% that way. Hense my comment that from their perspective (if they chose to be vindictive for the criticism ) everyone would look ignorant and in poverty. |
I feel the same freedom with a relatively modest income and total control on my work job... ( no boss) Then income had nothing to do with intelligence... one of the most intelligent people i encountered were poor and asperger erudite folks with NO AMBITION in society only in understanding ... People must not be bashed anyway wealthy or not ...😊 Then i am with you on this... But we are on an audiophile forum i oppose any opinion linking S.Q. to gear price linear scale and promoting gear upgrade race... Acoustics and common sense for all is my motto...Budget dont matter ...knowledge acquisition matter ...
And i dont think that rich people bash less fortunate people in money stash as "ignorant" because they are "poor" and cannot afford this turntable ... Most effective gadget are only that more effective gadget ... I am not ignorant about the way to give to myself a good experience with any system... Mine is low cost but i will do the same with my basic knowledge with any more effective system by design at any price... 😊 Because i learned how to do it... Upgrading without knowing the basic is real ignorance in most cases save for an evident synergy incompatibility ... Knowledge had no relation with money and even with gear branded name experience...but for sure a dude able to own a top dedicated acoustic room as mike lavigne will surpass any experience of mine even if i had the same gear in my living room ... Thats my point ... Acoustics rules not money ... But being ghprentice you know already all that... I repeat it for the sake of others ... |
@tomic601 +1 I used to get into this "rich people" generalization arguments but it's a waste of time. The cool thing is we can ALL enjoy music - quality and quantity-wise so much better these days, regardless of our budget. It's affordable and available in so many ways! |
Selling a High Item Turnover of Million items for $1M, at 20% Mark Up gives a return of $200K, as the pre overhead profit. Selling a low turnover item at a pre sale cost of $200K for $1M. Both the above sales do occur, I'm sure for those that can afford the initial outlay, the latter is the most attractive sale to achieve. I once had a very good communication with a friend who sold Architectural Items. The Service offered was most commonly a word of mouth recommendation. There was a period when Ornate carved Marble Fire Surrounds were on offer, these were replica's of a Pattern used by a famous Stone Carver from a few hundred years past. Quite similar as a product to the Cast Iron Items that were commonly seen, which were all cast to the Patterns of the most prominent Victorian Foundries. I was informed of the door to door price for each surround, of which it was quite a cost to be produced and imported. I inquired the ballpark resale price, to which I was informed the Buyer who arrives to view in a Helicopter will be paying the most. The resale price was genuinely what was seen to be fitting as the charge to the Customer. I know one went to a Large Estate House being renovated, for over a £100K a surround and there was more than one purchase made. The psychology is that the Customer / Vendor in purchases with a small mark up and cost price will most likely never meet, and the purchase is one that can be determined as being very very fair. The higher the price ticket usually means the Customer / Vendor will meet, and the Vendor is able to decide just how unfair the sale is going to be for the Customer. |
The Tourette touch was more mine ...😊 none of my aspergers friends or autists were Tourette .. By the way we all of us must read astonishing description of Tourette in Oliver Sacks masterpiece : "the man who mistook his wife for a hat "... One of the great life changing book we can read ...All his others books are on par almost... Try to read it my friend if you dont know it already .... The chapter on the Reagan Election at the TV commented by two different groups of people with heavy neurological problem but reverse problem for each group is amazing,... One of the best book i ever read and i read a lot ... That was my job... I will add Alexander Luria book about Vienamin a Russian dude with a memory WITHOUT limits. Luria i read it when i was 20 years old. He was the master of Sacks... The book of Luria surpass any S.F novel and his an accurate description day to day of the life of someone who CANNOT forget anything at all and without any limit about what is memorized. Luria tested him for many decades and study him as a case in neurology... Sacks had read him young and inspired embarked in his own amazing journey in clinical neurology case description ... 😁
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You are lucky... Oliver Sacks taught us a lot because neurological problems may be very specific in individual case and impossible to describe if not by a mini novel describing the patient life ... I admire him and his books are very precious to me... the episode you alluded to was put in movie which i will remember with his book forever...
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Mark Levinson's rules of audio. If it looks cool is sounds better. If it costs a fortune it sounds way better. The myth of the unobtainable. Lay instinct aside, the function of a turntable is insanely simple and not hard at all to manufacture for a reasonable price. Those of us with children want to leave them with some security. Pissing money away on flash and exclusivity is a fools game. Worry about one thing and one thing only, function. That is what Edgar Villchur was doing when he designed the AR XA. A turntable that sold for $67.00 that stomped turntables costing several orders of magnitude more. The Modern day version is the Thorens TD1600. |
