Upscale Audio and Primaluna
kevin deal is usa importer and part owner of primaluna you call the phone # for primaluna support for usa it rings a different line in kevin’s location... https://www.primaluna-usa.com/contact https://www.google.com/maps/place/2058+Wright+Ave,+La+Verne,+CA+91750/@34.0944727,-117.773802,19z/da... |
Funny thing about Cayin. I had my Cayin HA-300 repaired buy Jake Horowitz who's part of Westrex, a division of Western Electric and who has worked on tube amp for long a time. He was surprised at how good the Cayin HA-300 was, even with the stock TJ Full music tubes. I had to get a wire-wound resistor replaced because sadly one of my 1 year 2 months Psvane ACME 300b tube, which I really love on this amp, flashed white and damaged it. I got the amp back and it still sounds great with my Chord HUGO TT2 + Audeze LCD-3, but now I'm waiting for a pair of reissue Western Electric 300b. I've only heard the Primalunda EVO300 once at Upscale, but that wasn't a fair comparison because it was hooked up to a DCS Bartok, which is my end game DAC. |
@andysf Interesting point. Would be interesting to have something like a "fair trade" label on audio to ensure that not only products but components are sourced in ethical ways and with working conditions that are up to snuff, too. And, of course, where profits go. This is, implicitly, something which Schiit has done, I think. |
My experience with Upscale is somewhat limited, I only bought a PL EVO 300 and a pair of Klipsch Forte 4's from them but when I bought my amp Todd could have sold me more stuff but didn't. Now, I can't really comment on the PL yet because I'm really unhappy with the speakers I have hooked up to them right now (Tekton Double Impact) but when I bought my Klipsch, Sean was professional and took a lot of time with me. I saw a video once that Kevin did in his home garage and it, was, NICE. He has some really nice cars and motorcycles and the garage is professionally built so he has a big nut so I understand the aggressive stance he takes and I'm from NY so I like the straight no BS position he takes. People can be very difficult and sales is a bitch so I get it. So far I really like them. Be well ya'all, Phil |
Hello, I know it is very difficult to buy 100% American made. Some companies do their do diligence to handle this. The one that comes to mind is Ayre Acoustics. The store I buy my gear from is the new Chicagoland Ayre dealer. Even cooler they have them set up with the KEF blades. Ayre is one of those components that seems to push all speakers well. If you are in the area here is the website for the store. https://holmaudio.com/ |
Anytime I hear a salesperson bad mouth another product,the red flag goes up,and I head out. Years ago I worked retail sales,and whenever a customer came in looking for a product I didn’t carry,the FIRST thing I would say was”GREAT product”! Why on earth would any salesperson start off with a potential customer by insulting them?? Once you compliment someone on the product they are looking for,now you can start to qualify them. |
@rocray You are indeed correct, that is the right way to be a successful sales person. BUT, for the sake of the discussion, what if someone called their audio dealer and said "I have a Humperdink Integrated" and I am interested in a pair of the "XYZ Amazing speakers". What if the Humperdink is a marginal amp? Sure there are ways to say it better or more elegantly but the last thing we would want a reputable dealer to do is sell the speakers to the customer when there is no hope of driving them appropriately with the amp. Maybe some of the problem is the person who takes it personally that they are trying to match something to an ill advised previous purchase. Talk to enough audio dealers and they would likely admit that is the call the hate the most. "Make this work for me but I'm tying your hands behind your back because you must work with the weaknesses of the system the customer is inflexible with". I've seen some of the dealers I do business with extend such a gracious amount of time to people they know will never purchase, listening to the stories of how perfectly they have put together their system. One dealer friend shared with me that the problem with hobbyists is that they think its a hobby for everyone involved...like the purpose of an audio shop is to be the local clubhouse for the hobbyist community. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. |
The first thing I would say is the Humperdinck is definitely a wonderful integrated! However,have you ever listened to the Spitsalottasmoke?? I get your point. There is always a diplomatic way of being honest without turning a potential sale into an audio forum rant. Let’s put it this way,right ,wrong or indifferent, I wouldn’t spend my cash with someone abrasive. |
I'm not an Upscale fan. Apart from the dubious provenance of the rectifier I mentioned earlier (and the even more dubious explanation offered by Kevin), I don't like their Prima Luna hustle. I called recently to ask about some speakers and was pitched Prima Luna. This was before the hustler found out anything about me or my systems, or even asked about my current amps. Amazing. |
I remember a buddy of mine was interested in a new pre-amp upgrading from his existing Mark Levinson unit (forgot which one). He went to Upscale and they seriously pushed the Prima Luna top pre-amp. I told him to look at the Audio Research REF 6 pre-amp. The salesperson at Upscale told him with a straight face that the Prima Luna unit was way better than the Audio Research unit. I told my friend that although the Prima Luna unit was nice, no way on this planet was it even close to the Audio Research unit.. So, while they were pressing him. I told him to Contact Randy at Optimal Enchantment. Randy let him "borrow" the Audio Research REF 6. He purchased the Prima Luna unit with the understanding that he could return it for a full refund. He compared both units in his system in an A/B comparison. It wasn't even close. I rarely say one unit will blow another away, but the REF6 just was heads better than the Prima Luna unit. Which already knew because I heard both before. Upscale owns a part of Prima Luna and pushes it hard. Again, don't get me wrong. They are nice units. But to lie and say it was better than the REF6, hell, it wasn't better than a REF 3. Tell the truth. if a unit is better then say so. if the customer wants to pay the costs difference, that should be their choice. Hearing the units in the same system (taking into account cost differences) is important. A re-tubed REF 3 is better. That automatically means that a REF 5, 5SE are also better. But, for the money, it is a nice unit. I thought to save money and purchase replacement tubes for my REF250 amps from Upscale. Never again!!! They were supposed to be matched and within Audio Research specs. They weren't close. Shortly after replacing all the tubes and biasing the amps (yes, I know how to correctly bias amps, one of my amps blew. The tube went and took out several other components including integrated circuits. My DAC also blew at the same time as a result. To this day the technicians and I can't explain that one. But,George Meyer AV techs tested each and every tube in both amps and found them well outside Audio Research specs. it cost me well over $3,000 usd to repair that amp, and I purchased Audio Research supplied tubes. I'll spend the extra money on Audio Research supplied tubes for my amps from now one because 1) they will be matched and within Audio Research specs and 2) if they fail and damage the amp, Audio Research will cover the repair. Expensive lesson learned. anyway, Prima Luna is good, but come on, be truthful. enjoy |
I did some research before I settled on a Mac C2700/Ma275 Tube setup and my second choice was PrimaLuna EVO 400. If you look at the PL circuit board it tells a story. Unalytic Polypropylene Capacitors and independent relay line inputs are quality design features. In essence they spared no expense on the circuit design. My decision to go with the Mac was the C2700 PreAmp has a DAC, MC/MM Phono stage which are not available on the Prima Luna line. As far as Upscale Audio, they’re a good outfit but you have to keep in mind that Kevin Deal is a salesman. He’s a techie and he know’s his stuff but in the end, he’s a salesman. |
end of the day, this pursuit is about the pursuit of music reproduction that thoroughly satisfies the owner/listener is primaluna the best? well, no... arc is better... yes by a bit ... but there is better than arc still... there is always something better (or at least different, in how the sound/music is portrayed)... the chase can never end, or it can end today - totally up to the listener like in life, happiness and satisfaction (or the opposite) is a state of mind if you’re posting here about pl, arc or kevin/upscale ... you probably have a pretty darned satisfying system companies make gear, need to sell it, salesmen sell, it is what they do... it's up to us when and whether to bite |
Yes salesman jobs are to sell but there's a right way ( at least IMO) and wrong way. Every go into a car dealership and they ask you what you are looking for including other brands? Well as soon as they put down that Porsche or BMW or whatever I exit the nearest door. If the dealer says yeah nice choices we'll he has my attention. I'm willing to pay for a better experience and give them my business even if it costs a bit more. People at Upscale lost my business a looooong time ago. |
I had a problem with an Evo 400. They promptly sent another. I demoed a AR Reference 75. I liked but the Evo sounded more musical. I kept it. Service and sales staff are very knowledgeable. Since then I have purchased an Aurender, Sutherland Insight, and just recently a Chord TT2. They always include a discount. Great people. OP probably got ahold of Al, he can be a little off. I will always buy Upscale. |
I have the PrimaLuna EVO 400 and have never been happier. I talked over several months with one of their sales reps and never felt pressured not did I find him overly critical of my current gear. He even looked up the specs on on of my pieces and said “it was no slouch” and that I could test drive the PrimaLuna to make sure it was an upgrade (30 day return policy I believe). All of his feedback was based on what I said I wanted to achieve to plug some gaps in what I was hearing. I have talked to two other reps there and never felt like I was pressured or steered to a product. I’m fairly sure they are not on commission. I recall watching a video of Kevin Deal saying he was hiring and that they pay a very competitive wage and the staff are not on commission. My experience has been great. |
During my research for an integrated tube amp I stumbled upon PrimaLuna and upscale’s videos, I have to admit they were very convincing and I liked the no bullshit approach. As I live in Switzerland I didn’t buy from upscale, but from a known speaker manufacturer who also distributes them here. I’m very happy with the EVO 400i. Although I have to admit it works better with >90db sensitive speakers which I’m testing right now. I get wide soundstage, beautiful separation even with big orchestras, punchy clear bass, amazing vocals and details. I can only compare it to my previous Rega Elex-R, which sounds also quite good, but it’s in a different league. |
For me it's a matter of approach. "Goodness" is a relative concept and relative goodness can be expressed in two ways - by extolling one’s virtues or denigrating the virtues of others. Given a choice between buying from a company that employs the former tactic vs. the latter I will always choose the former. I remember watching an Upscale Audio video comparing the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp to an Audio Research LS17SE. Much of the video was spent in running down the 17SE (it weighs less, it looks empty by comparison to the PL, etc.) A company’s choice of the low road in the treatment of their competition will always cause me to question the road they would choose in dealing with their customers. |
I demo’d the Primaluna tube DAC and it went back after a couple of days. Compared to the Chord Qutest (which I owned at the time) and the Denafrips Pontus, it is not as good. I was disappointed with the Primaluna and a lot of Kevin Deal’s videos are just for sales. Who cares if the Primaluna gear is heavy and packed full of bits and pieces, it’s the sound that is important and it wasn’t good to me. |
"Quite simply, every dollar of profit from your purchase of a Cayin amp
goes directly to a government that runs vast re-education camps,
oppresses dissent in Tibet and Hong Kong and promotes the use of slave
and forced labor in the country's workforce." Unlike all those dollars you give for your iPhones, laptops, TVs...? Never dealt with Kevin (he is probably the best sales guy in hifi based on YT i watched:), I am in EU, and think Primaluna its hard to beat for that money. For my budget (1500-2000$) I couldn't find any other tube preamp that sounded better. Of course, didn't hear everything that exists, there is a better one probably, that's why we should audition before buying! They have Stereophile Class A awards, and a bunch of other awards for some reason. |
Piece by piece, I’ve purchased almost my entire system from Upscale. I’ve been to their showroom for demos twice (I drove down from Oregon) and also had lengthy phone conversations with both Kevin and Kat. In all instances they were nothing but patient and helpful while I wrung my hands and was indecisive about things. My system is mid-level at best, and i don’t have tons of disposable income to throw at audio. Nonetheless, the staff at Upscale have been tremendously generous with their time. Additionally, on a few occasions their tech staff have walked me through issues I was having with my equipment. On one occasion Kevin himself sent me a fuse overnight at Upscale’s expense to remedy a problem that I myself had caused. I have nothing but good things to say about Upscale’s way of doing business and customer service. The OP’s description of his interaction does not align with my repeated experience with Upscale audio. |
@jumia Its ok if you don’t want to do business with Upscale, Kevin or even if you just don’t want Primaluna. There is some better gear out there and there is a whole lot more gear out there that is inferior to Primaluna. It’s very unfair though that you continue trying to paint Upscale with your one-off purportedly poor experience. There are many here who have been happy repeat, multi decade customers of Upscale so chalk it up to you and they just weren’t meant for one another. Primaluna is really good gear (I have Boulder, Audio Note amps presently) and most could live happily ever after with it and been dollars ahead. I have taken the time to compare Primaluna side by side with other high quality gear and Primaluna slots in nicely. Its pricepoint quite frequently delivers much more bang for the buck and the after sale support is exemplary, in the unlikely event it is required. Your posts (its your thread so its your right I guess) seem to be seeking support and to rally the troops to your cause that you didnt like how you were treated. Thats fine but you are just bashing them repeatedly and the vast majority of Upscale’s customers are happy. Same goes for Primaluna. Kevin supports the magazines through ads, he never misses taking space at audio shows, he chose to sell Primaluna through a traditional dealer channel(rather than direct only, which would have been more profitable) when he didn’t really need to and he actually opened a brick and mortar store AFTER building a very successful business on line. The Kevin/Upscale bashing is just uncalled for. I kind of miss the old days when it was just a small group of people who irrationally resented Kevin for buying up vast quantities of NOS tubes all over Europe before it was the rage. He traveled, he dug, he was like a detective and had to go far and wide to find them and he did. He then made them available to hobbyist like us rather than us trying to figure out how to access them. He was patient, stayed in his lane and made a fortune reselling them. I recall many posts back in the day slamming him for doing better than the rest of the industry at the time (he did). I have seen his warehouse which rivals a small Costco, I have seen some of his cars and motorcycles some years back and he enjoys his life. He’s earned it. I’m not his accountant nor his financial advisor and he has never said a word about his financials to me nor should he but Kevin could have retired to the French Riviera years ago and never looked back and never had to bring the balance down in his checkbook. But when you see him working with his team, the longevity and convivial relationships on full display toward those with whom he works it is admirable. He also pays better wages and hires great people. They can afford to have a good life working in the audio business. WOW, imagine that! He enjoys his business and if you get down to it, the industry needs Kevin/Upscale more financially than he needs it. Your continued complaints have now veered firmly into the irrational and "I’ve got a bone to pick" territory. Like Kevin/Upscale or dont but consider moving on from it. Kevin likes Kevin (as do most who know him) and while he will bend over backwards for almost anyone (both business and personal) he won’t take any shyte from anyone. I kindof like that and I certainly respect it. |
Kevin, like all of us, needs to pay the rent. No surprise he would push Prima Luna. Personally I like Kevin and he is one of my "go to guys", but any sales person denigrating your current equipment is out of line. I had a gentleman from common sense audio do that to me. I was about to buy a set of speaker drivers off him, but rather than giving me the low down on his drivers, he decided to run his mouth. I ended up buying a set of drivers elsewhere. Simple. As a customer, you don’t have to deal with a wise ass. |
jumia That sounds like my old pal Ken Fisher, the then 1970's B&W and Audire rep for Florida. He would walk into a shop, tell them how and why their stuff sucked, and set up his Audire's and B&W's, then sit back for you to be amazed at the sound. Somehow, he was usually right about the difference, but in addition to alienating the shop personnel with his intro, he would then sit his stinky body (from spending nights in his car after traveling through out Florida with out A/C) and fire up a cigar. |
There are many great responses above. Here's my two cents. Upscale Audio-- This is an A+ Grade dealer. They are awesome to work with and even though they aren't perfect, they do the right things to make it right. For example, I have a PL Dialogue HP integrated. The remote was acting up. I sent it in for service. Well, the pandemic crushed them and everything. They got insanely busy and my silly remote issue got triaged accordingly--to the back of the line, as it should have. But, after 3 months waiting I pinged their service center. They were awesome. They felt so bad that they sent me a brand new remote ($250 value). That's service and commitment. And no one can say they should've done more sooner. In the end, the always make it right. Kevin Deal-- Personally, I love the guy. He and I don't always agree, but I love his passion. He deserves to be successful. He gets it. He's been doing it since he was 18. Think of that. I don't care that he pushes PL. He should. Kevin Deal is a good human being. I've bought tons from his shop. I personally loved talking to him on the phone from Chicago. If I was in LA, I'd end up befriending him. Would love to have a cocktail or coffee with the brother. PL-- Just exactly as folks say above... PL is not the end all be all. But you have to recognize it's damn fine gear and it's priced fairly given the quality and how it's built to last 2 generations. I've built a bunch of stuff over the last 4 years. I've learned a ton. While I don't think PL aims to sound the best, it compromises in its design so that it is a set and forget product. It is a bit more geared toward folks who want to buy McIntosh or Audio Research and linked it to their speakers. It's consumer friendly beyond belief. I really think PL is perfect for folks who buy mainstream brands of speakers, like Focal, Dynaudio, PSB, B&W, and want to get into tubes. I think you can get more clarity and holographic feel from other products (some priced less), but Kevin Deal and PL deserve serious credit. PS. Who are these folks that just say stuff like Tannoy is ancient history? My lord---Tannoy's heritage line is pretty special. I think we are living in a binary-thought-process age, meaning folks say things without experience or if something is not their cup of tea they have to dismiss it outright. For example, I'm not likely to buy a Harbeth speaker any time soon but my god do I have respect for what they do. |
"How is it possible for someone to call your system "deficient" if they haven't heard it?" @lostinseattle , the whole reason this forum exists is for members to crap on other's system choices while simultaneously touting the unreachable nirvana that only their personal system can deliver to their golden ears. Welcome to audiogon. |
@jumia My guess is that you don't even have a good system and for some reason have decided to have a beef with Upscale Audio. As I stated earlier, just buy product from some other retailer. I am confident that Upscale Audio, and for that matter a host of other fine retailers, will not miss your business. As my older sister used to say when we were children, "just dry up". |
Based on my long term experience in audio, lots of characters in this field of endeavor. In early days easy for me to take offense at perceived slights, over time I learned to listen and react in a curious manner. Knowledgeable and courteous responses to seemingly arrogant behavior sometimes brings these guys down off high horse and into interesting discussions. As for Upscale, I have Prima Luna Dialogue Four amp diy mods Takman resistors and various boutique caps, while not my favorite amp, mostly because push pull vs. SET, holds its own against my Art Audio Carissa Sig. Coincident Turbo 845 and custom 300B monoblocks. Nice build quality, mostly point to point. I had issue with bad power tube blew out some resistors on bias board, Upscale head tech worked with me, sent out replacement board pronto. Also, purchased a Musical Fidelity integrated from them, great deal. Never had any issues with anyone I've interfaced with there. |
