And how do you suggest you go about doing this? As a musician, I can tell you how and it's not just by listening, it's by training your ears at a piano or an ear training app in most of your cases. Ya wanna be a better listener? Get Earpeggio or Functional Ear Trainer for your phone and stick with it. You can play any note or a chord and I can tell you what it is. Try doing that and it'll make you an ultimate listener.
When are people going to wake up and realize listening is a skill?
Thirty years ago I realized my lifelong dream of owning a 911. This is a fast car and so first thing I did was join PCA to get some track experience in order to be able to drive safely at speed. Of course I already knew how to drive. I was a "good driver" much better than most, etc, etc.
PCA Driver Ed begins with several hours of classroom study. Track rules, safety, and some car control skills- braking, steering, throttle control. Yeah, yeah, whatever let's go!
Then at the track they put you in your car with an instructor and you head out onto the track driving so freaking slow, actually normal freeway driving speed but it seems slow because, race track. So we play follow the leader with the instructor pointing out cones. Braking cones, turn-in cone, apex cone, track out cone. Each turn is numbered 1 thru 9, and there's turn worker stations, and they have flags, and you need to be watching and know what they mean, because you screw up and that is it your day is done. One full 20 min session, all the excitement of a tour bus.
Bear with me. There's a connection here. Trust me.
It goes on like this all day until finally we are signed off to drive solo but then there is an accident, flat bed, that's it for the day.
Next time out I am so super confident instead of novice I sign up for Intermediate. Same cars, only the Intermediate drivers are supposed to somehow be better. Whatever.
So out I go and Holy Crap everyone is passing me! I am driving as fast as I possibly can and being passed by everyone! Not only that, if you have ever driven as fast as you possibly can then you know this means braking as late as you possibly can, cornering as fast as you can, all of it. Which without fear of police is pretty damn fast! So fast I am not at all used to it, and so by the end of 20 min am literally sweating and exhausted!
But I keep at it. Turns out all that classroom talk is about driving skills that are absolutely essential, not only to know but to be able to do. Threshold braking is braking right at the edge of lockup. Right at the very edge. Those cones are there for reference, to help you delay braking as long as possible. The turn-in cones are where you start turning, apex cone where you are right at the inside edge of the turn, track-out where you come out the other side. Do all this while at the very limit of traction and you are going very fast indeed. Without- and this is the essential part- without really trying to go fast.
Learn the skills, practice the techniques until you are able to execute smoothly, efficiently, and consistently, and you will be fast. Without ever really trying to go fast.
The connection here is, everyone thinks they hear just fine. Just like they think they drive just fine. In the classroom they talk about threshold braking, the late apex line, and controlling weight transfer with throttle. Just like here we talk about grain, glare, imaging and sound stage.
I left one part out. All the track rats, they all start out talking about horsepower, springs and spoilers, thinking these are what makes the car fast. They are, sort of. But really it is the driver. By the time I was an instructor myself it was easy to go out with those same Intermediate drivers and it was like the commute to work it was so easy. My car was the same. Only my skills were greater.
So when are people gonna wake up and realize listening is just like this? Nobody expects to become a really good golfer, tennis player or rock climber just by going out and doing it. Why are so many stuck talking watts? When are they gonna realize that is just like track rats talking hp?
PCA Driver Ed begins with several hours of classroom study. Track rules, safety, and some car control skills- braking, steering, throttle control. Yeah, yeah, whatever let's go!
Then at the track they put you in your car with an instructor and you head out onto the track driving so freaking slow, actually normal freeway driving speed but it seems slow because, race track. So we play follow the leader with the instructor pointing out cones. Braking cones, turn-in cone, apex cone, track out cone. Each turn is numbered 1 thru 9, and there's turn worker stations, and they have flags, and you need to be watching and know what they mean, because you screw up and that is it your day is done. One full 20 min session, all the excitement of a tour bus.
Bear with me. There's a connection here. Trust me.
It goes on like this all day until finally we are signed off to drive solo but then there is an accident, flat bed, that's it for the day.
Next time out I am so super confident instead of novice I sign up for Intermediate. Same cars, only the Intermediate drivers are supposed to somehow be better. Whatever.
So out I go and Holy Crap everyone is passing me! I am driving as fast as I possibly can and being passed by everyone! Not only that, if you have ever driven as fast as you possibly can then you know this means braking as late as you possibly can, cornering as fast as you can, all of it. Which without fear of police is pretty damn fast! So fast I am not at all used to it, and so by the end of 20 min am literally sweating and exhausted!
But I keep at it. Turns out all that classroom talk is about driving skills that are absolutely essential, not only to know but to be able to do. Threshold braking is braking right at the edge of lockup. Right at the very edge. Those cones are there for reference, to help you delay braking as long as possible. The turn-in cones are where you start turning, apex cone where you are right at the inside edge of the turn, track-out where you come out the other side. Do all this while at the very limit of traction and you are going very fast indeed. Without- and this is the essential part- without really trying to go fast.
Learn the skills, practice the techniques until you are able to execute smoothly, efficiently, and consistently, and you will be fast. Without ever really trying to go fast.
The connection here is, everyone thinks they hear just fine. Just like they think they drive just fine. In the classroom they talk about threshold braking, the late apex line, and controlling weight transfer with throttle. Just like here we talk about grain, glare, imaging and sound stage.
I left one part out. All the track rats, they all start out talking about horsepower, springs and spoilers, thinking these are what makes the car fast. They are, sort of. But really it is the driver. By the time I was an instructor myself it was easy to go out with those same Intermediate drivers and it was like the commute to work it was so easy. My car was the same. Only my skills were greater.
So when are people gonna wake up and realize listening is just like this? Nobody expects to become a really good golfer, tennis player or rock climber just by going out and doing it. Why are so many stuck talking watts? When are they gonna realize that is just like track rats talking hp?
130 responses Add your response
Been doing this about 13 years now. If I cannot bring it home and demo it in my room I don’t buy it. In the case where a demo has not been available, I have taken my speaker cables with me to the dealer and tried to simulate my current set up. This is more difficult but better than “taking a chance” @MC - always enjoy your posts. BTW - just bought a Taycan 4s Turbo. A different experience than the 911, but love it!! |
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The only time I jump on my kids with the phrase “ listening is a skill and listen to what people say” is when asking them a question or telling them to do something. Example I will ask my daughter how her injured elbow felt hitting at practice today (tennis)? She responds it was really hot today and practice was boring all we did was rotate through hitting stations. I then stop her and ask to “now please answer the question I asked”. In this hobby with music everyone is going to hear things different. 5 people will listen on same system to same song and all hear it different. To me that is fine. Yes I have gone out and bought my kids some nice powered bluetooth monitors for their rooms as it drove me nuts (pirate reference) when they listen through cell phone speakers. This is a system I would never use my self for a “serious” listening session but I quickly realized it does not matter and I don’t criticize others for their system of what they hear or how they listen. In the end it is all about one thing and one thing only. Enjoy the music any way you hear it. |
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“I just want to know what part of MC’s Jedi Listening Skills Training Program allowed him to know that Tekton speakers and Raven amps would be the best audio products he had ever heard WITHOUT having ever listened to them first????” Everything mc chooses to own is world’s greatest design ever built, add that to listening skills no one else seems to possess except him….Enough said! |
Perhaps a kinder, middle of the 'road' idea here is that experience in listening goes a long way. The obvious analogy is driving; recognizing potential issues with road conditions, turns, other drivers etc. goes a long way. All of us benefit from things we experienced along the way. In audio, hearing many different approaches, components, cables and accessories all go a long way to filling our minds with musical experience. If you have not heard it, you just have not heard it. Is that a skill? Yes in the same way a master craftsman has the skills of many successes and failures. My system (to my ears) has benefited from others who suggested or allowed me to try this or that (+1 for Bill at GTT) and I 'learned' what I was missing. Am I a more skilled listener now? Perhaps, but experience has lead my ears to a better system |
I realised it was a skill when I went to audiologist who thought I was in the industry because I had trained the muscle in my ear, which tightens, to stay relaxed. They told me to just enjoy the music and stop trying so hard. And they let me fly home with a worbling ear. I was able to a ~9:15 at the ring in a rental Suzuki Swift.That was stressfully fun on a wet-leaf ridden track… |
@ozzy62 No. The speakers were the same as well, so was the amp. In this instance I was considering a pre amp. There was not a demo available. As previously stated, for the most part I demo in home. I have found that when spending 5 figures for equipment, most manufacturers or dealers will drop ship or let you demo components. In the latest case of my Sonus Faber Amati speakers that I just purchased, the components were identical so I took my cables in to assure a solid comparison. Never perfect but… |
I don't understand why MC thinks it's his mission in life to be Tekton's chief apologist, but since he's taken up that mantle, I'll say this: If the best defense he can mount whenever a criticism is leveled at Tekton is to claim the critic "needs to learn to listen better," then that doesn't bode well for Tekton. My impression of Tekton has completely changed for the worse, almost entirely because of MC's constant, aggressive excuse-making. MC isn't doing Tekton any favors IMHO. |
@kfscoll, I don’t think mc’s relentless excuse-making limits to Tekton, it’s across the board on everything he owns. In case you missed it, @douglas_schroeder sums it accurately in one of his posts. “Some budget audiophiles and builders of average systems need to think they have advanced listening skills. They make a low to average rig, yet they want to pretend it's close to SOTA. Since they can't compete - for them it has to be a form of competition regarding performance relative to cost, etc. - on the basis of the system, they pretend their listening skills are inherently superior, or more developed. It's important to them to think they are doing audio in a superior fashion.” |
Just last night I got 24 hours burn in on a set of Mazda NOS rectifiers in my preamp. I am comparing them to a pair of NOS RCAs that were in it. The challenge at my develpomental listening stage is to unpack what I am hearing and what is missing compared to each other, and to a sunjective benchmark in my mind of what that piece of music should sound like. I think most of us are pretty good at pass/fail approval of a complete system. We can tell if an entire system sounds like music and if our feet start tapping. What I have been struggling with is figuring out what just happened when I add or change a componet. Last night with the new tubes the imaging was stunningly good, but some of the bass was reduced, and the soundstage was pushed back. Better, worse, a good trade? Maybe a few more days of burn in there will be more changes. I have been subject to "newness" bias, "it was expensive so it must be better" bias and especially "it's brighter so it's better" bias. Putting together a great sounding complete system from disparate brands does require listening skills. So yes, I agree with MC that listening is a skill that is developed. Thank god i'm geeting a tiny bit better at it. |
jw944ts, excellent post. The only comment I wish to make is Formula1 racing is most definitely a sport requiring superior physical conditioning. The only sport I can think of besides gladiatorial combat that punishes it's participants more is bicycle racing. Check out Max Verstappen's crash at Silverstone this year. 180 MPH straight into a barrier. He's OK!! What does a great wine taste like? I do not have words for it, like great wine I suppose. My linguistic talents are probably subpar. People come up with these flowery descriptions which I have tried to relate to without much luck. I know what I like. Are stereo's the same? What does the absolute sound sound like. Eyes closed, the speakers disappear leaving a creditable replica of real people and instruments in front of you in a space. The first time I heard it was an epiphany. Out of hundreds of systems I have heard it twice more. As jw suggests, not very common. I would never have known it existed had I not heard it. Unless you have been pithed you will know when you hear it. |
middlemass: phasemonger wrote: Yup. And a diabolical sense of humor. Most delightful of all, there are those who totally get it. Then there are those so hopeless, no matter how many times I say "rent free" they just don’t get it. And some think Tarantino is the master of meta. https://youtu.be/V0iLXy8X5Zs?t=7 |
So, is that why after eons of going on and on about " The Miller Carbon " , here on this site you (as was predicted), listed it for sale on a competing site and not the one that gave all that free "modern marketing" and lore you over stated... Its interesting that but for saving a few bucks someone with such self proclaimed listening skills could be so tone deaf ... |
This will be news to precisely no one, but the level of reading comprehension here is dismal. Nowhere in anything I wrote was anything about me giving racing car driving lessons. That was entirely made up by someone with a lot more imagination and desire to push a personal narrative than anything. A sad, spiteful, green with jealousy narrative at that. |
Driving skills are easily assessed with measurable tests. Listening skills can also be tested. If someone claims to have perfect pitch, we can test that. If they claim they can identify extremely low levels of distortion, we can test that. If they can tell one violin manufacturer from another just by listening, we can test that. So what can we test about Millercarbon's hearing to know that he's attained some important level of skill, and what can be done with that skill? Is it just for the pleasure of the owner of that skill? I enjoy reproduced music, and I'd say the most useful skill I have is my ability to ignore issues with playback systems and hear the musical intent coming through. My lack of that skill is what has led me into somewhat expensive and complicated playback gear. |
I've got no problem with Millercarbon opining about what interests him. I just wish he would be as nice and kind while doing so as he is likely in real life. I've enjoyed immensely the Porsches I've owned over the years. In visiting with a dear friend who owns a successful Porsche racing team, we chuckle at the eternal question: how many Porsche drivers today could avoid backing their 911's off the road without all the driving nannies. Not many. You haven't lived until you've swapped ends....a little snap back oversteer also can be humbling. |
@feldmen4 In the OP’s original post, Stop trying to threaten MC’s credibility with facts by quoting exactly what he said! Yes he wrote this but your reading comprehension is "dismal". Stating that you were a driving instructor doesn’t mean you were ever actually a driving instructor....got it? Perhaps english isn’t your first language? ;-) |
I have two Porsches, one for road and one for the track. I have two classic Ferraris and a few Alfa’s. I have track trained . Thank you Jesus for sparing me of malignant narcissism and an ego that needs a massive shunt of acknowledgment every hour. Oh yeah, I’m a doc and also have a masters degree. However, in this audio- music forum I feel NO need to tie that other crap in. |
I am nice and kind with those who are nice and kind to me. The others should thank their lucky stars, because I am as Jack Reacher would say being gentle. For those who may be interested in learning a little something about driving, I was indeed a PCA Driving Instructor. Also Autocross Instructor, and Driver Skills Instructor. Nowhere in any of that is the word, "racing". It is just a fact, and you could check it out. Driving is as Bob Bondurant concisely stated the art of controlling weight transfer so as to maximize the functions of acceleration, braking, and cornering. Please note: the art of controlling weight transfer. This is a main difference between driving and operating a motor vehicle. The operator of a motor vehicle thinks the car goes where he steers. The driver knows the car responds to the contact patch. Under hard cornering the car can actually be steered by throttle, which is why one of the skills we teach is called throttle steer. Some of this instruction is done on a track. This confuses those easily confused. That is not a dig, just a fact. Those less hateful and genuinely interested in learning never have these misunderstandings. When people say these things, deliberately ignoring essential words like "racing" I often wonder, how dumb do they think people are? But then I realize who they are writing for, and the question answers itself. |
asctim-
So what can we test about Millercarbon's hearing to know that he's attained some important level of skill, and what can be done with that skill? The proof is in the pudding. Read the comments. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
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@wokeuptobose said: "The challenge at my develpomental listening stage is to unpack what I am hearing and what is missing compared to each other, and to a sunjective benchmark in my mind of what that piece of music should sound like." If your experience is anything like mine, comparing equipment, different pressings, or vacuum tubes, unless something is downright awful, the outcome, for me, is often mixed; that is, unit A will have certain strengths and weaknesses, and unit B will have a different set of compromises. The trick in my estimation is to match these strengths and weaknesses in a complementary way. Easier said than done. As for listening skills related to music (as opposed to the failure to comprehend oral discourse), I am of the view that it does not take golden ears. Exposure is the key--- to real instruments, to the various ways they are presented in a recording, and ultimately, to how effectively that recording presents an illusion of real instruments in your room. Granted, every instrument (at least pianos) sound different from each other, but if you know what a concert grand is capable of doing live, you realize how hard it is to replicate the gravitas of the real instrument, and its ambience-- the harmonics and their decay after that initial hammer strike. I listen to a fair amount of hard rock, but rarely use that to assess gear or ancillaries. I do not think you need musical training to hear and appreciate all of this (I have such training, but it bears little relationship to the role of the listener --as opposed to say a recordist or mixer). |
I read the comments. Any specific comments you'd like to point out? |
When I was 30 years old I realised my lifelong dream of owning a 1964 Hillman Minx just like my grandfather had once owned. I loved that car and didn't need special skills to do it. In fact if I'd gone and learned special driving skills I'd probably have enjoyed the car less and less. Insert metaphor to hi-fi here. |
In fact if I'd gone and learned special driving skills I'd probably have enjoyed the car less and less.Chris Harris has mad skills. Doesn't seem to have done his driving enjoyment the least bit of harm. https://youtu.be/MGIwvoLPoAU?t=5 |
Einstein, to be honest, I can’t believe that after haunting this website with about 10,500 posts all in a couple of years you didn’t think it would be the right thing to do to spend $65 bucks to sell your turntable here to pass on a few bucks to support your forum hosts. Only because someone hinted at it I looked over at the other free sales website and saw " FOR SALE: Teres Audio Verus Drive "Miller Carbon" Hall of Fame Turntable". I wouldn’t have believed it, not cool. |
