Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

So you are saying my oscilloscope does listen to music, I wonder what type it likes?

@amir_asr , I have asked in this thread and through DM’s, is this a one way street where you come here and post or are you going to tear down the wall at ASR? No one is stopping you from posting here, why are you avoiding this (and many other) questions? Are you a drive by poster or what?

I can't believe how you guys on ASR insulted Nelson pass for his amp camp amp, which he designed to sound like a tube amp. I don't see you designing an amp of any importance. I'm sure Nelson could design an amp that would measure great, but would it sound good, I think not.

@jtgofish 

ASR love to quote Floyd Toole and research done at Harman.Which is fine but the findings there have also shown that the average listener does not prefer a flat frequency response .Far from it.And different types of listeners prefer different frequency response curves and these are only averages anyway so do not properly reveal the extent of this variation.

Above tells me you either have not read Dr. Toole's research or understood it.

He absolutely does NOT advocate flat-in-room response. The response should be sloping down.  Otherwise the sound will seem bright.  

What he advocates correctly and what is followed by many top designers in the world is flat-on-axis response, and off-axis that is smooth and similar to it, but pointing down.

On-axis response is NOT an average by the way. It is a single anechoic measurement.  Of axis is made up of key strong reflections in a room. Research shows that they are most critical when it comes to off-axis performance.

Your statement about different people wanting different sound is incorrect. This has been researched across hundreds of listeners of all types.  Most of us like very similar sound and in controlled testing, pick the same speaker as the best.  See: 

And no, we don't accept everything Dr. Toole and his research team say. I for example don't publish preference scores for either speakers or headphones.

These are the topics we discuss day in and day out in ASR. So if this is of interest for you, ASR is the right place. If you want to stick to folklore of "we are hear differently," then not so much.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , I have asked in this thread and through DM's, is this a two way street or are you going to tear down the wall at ASR? No one is stopping you from posting here, why are you avoiding this (and many other) questions? Are you a drive by poster or what?

There is no wall at ASR. Hundreds of members join the forum from all walks of life.  Only a handful get banned because all they want to do is argue and not provide any data to the conversation.  All claims are empty such as yours: "you should not test a cable before 100 hours of burn-in."  When asked based on what, you have no answer.  You can't explain the engineering.  You can't back it with any controlled test.  Yet want to repeat that 22 times in one hour demanding that folks believe you.  Well, we don't.  We have better things to do than cater to likes of yours.

If on the other hand you are interested in proper discussion of audio science and engineering, then you have a great home in ASR.

And to be clear, I am NOT here as a appeal court for your banishment from ASR. I am here to answer questions and clear up misconceptions posted about us.  So please don't keep asking me to remove your ban.  You had the opportunity to be a constructive member but you threw it away.  And that is that.

@amir_asr, uhhh this IS a place for proper discussion of audio science and engineering, isn’t that why you are here???

This is also a place for manners, happiness. civility, mutual respect. I went through the thread where they seem to be egging you on to participate in this thread at ASR. Is that the reason you are here?

I am all about the journey, I asked you what you about your system, what you would like to accomplish, etc. How is that not in alignment with the goals of both forums? 

@ticat 

I repeat....

Always follow the Money... 

You say that but you don't follow that advice, do you?

Some of you know that I am the founder of a company (Madrona Digital) that does custom integration of electronics into very high end homes.

One day a local distributor called us for a meeting. He said that we should source flat screen TVs from them. I asked them how their prices were compared to big box stores. He said, "if they have a sale, then our cost to you will be higher!'  I asked him how we were going to do that?  He said, "you can match their prices and then make money on selling them cables and extended warranty!!!"  With cables having as much as 70% gross margin, you can see why he said that.

Do you listen to this?  No.  You happily go and pay thousands of dollars for non-performant gear that only enriches the manufacturer at your expense. You believe what they say on their website.  You believe random youtuber getting eval gear and gushing over said cable.  And oh, the more expensive that cable, the better it must be.  Never mind that the more expensive, the more it enriches the manufacture.

So no, you don't believe in that. You are using it as a cheap talking point without foundation to boot.

To repeat, all the information on ASR forum is available to everyone for free.  No content is behind paywall or delayed for paying members to read first.  Large number of ASR members read the forum without any contribution. And are not looked down upon whatsoever.

I am fortunate enough to be independent and don't rely on ASR to make money.  If it were different, I would turn on ads and allow sponsorships as all other sites do.

Am I here to solve world hunger?  No. I have my interested in what I like to do and test. It just happens that this interest aligns with the needs of many audiophiles.  They appreciate the uncluttered site that is not running banners everywhere you look.  Or my youtube channel where there is zero begging for subscription, likes, etc. And has no monetization even though I am fully qualified by Google to do so.

If this is not for you, then that is that. But stick to facts and don't make proclamations that are simply not true. 

I will answer: you need to understand electronic design.

I don't need to know how to build an amp to listen to how it sounds any more than I need to know how to build a violin to know how it sounds. You understand electronic design and measurements, most here understand the art of audio reproduction of sound, it's more complicated than just making a measurement. 

Amir could have had a killer stereo for $200k. 

Amir could have had a killer stereo for $200k. 

True, he could also have one for 1/10 that amount. 

@amir_asr "I have my interested in what I like to do and test."

A thorouhgly developed listening test with a qualified group of listeners could be a real breakthrough in the advancement of helping people more.

@amir_asr , I think the perception about ASR being a cash grab is a legitimate question. You do ban members with views that don't conform, you do pass the plate in every review, and as you often say yourself, you are a dealer and that visitors to ASR should read as much bias as you like into your posts. I get that the perception may be different from the reality but it is a legitimate question.

Now, are you finally going to tell us about your system, what you bought, why you like it, what you are trying to achieve?

Going back to OP:

@fleschler 

 They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance. 

We give credence to anything that is described as soundwaves coming out of your audio gear. If your assessment of the above only happens when your eyes are looking at the gear as well as your ears, then no, we can't measure that as we are not instrumenting the visuals of audio gear.

Come back and show that the above characteristics survive "ear only" evaluation using blind controlled test and I will show you measurements that catch them.  Until then, please don't repeat audiophile folklore and worse yet, spend money toward them. 

Amir what I meant by average is that there was no detail of the spread of listener preferences from which the type of listener average was calculated.That might have been quite an even and narrow bell curve or quite uneven and wide one.So it does not really show relative variability between individual listeners.It would also clarify why different people have different sonic preferences and for whom"accurate" might not be what they want at all.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , I think the perception about ASR being a cash grab is a legitimate question. You do ban members with views that don't conform, you do pass the plate in every review, and as you often say yourself, you are a dealer and that visitors to ASR should read as much bias as you like into your posts. I get that the perception may be different from the reality but it is a legitimate question.

Now, are you finally going to tell us about your system, what you bought, why you like it, what you are trying to achieve?

I have addressed that question multiple times now. If you still don't understand the answer, that is more on you than me.

As to my system, you can see a brief overview and pictures in this review thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-lyngdorf-roomperfect-eq.6799/

I am not here to write you essays about why I bought it. Nor do I walk around constantly talking about my system. 

@fleschler

Going back to OP:

If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money.

There is no denying this as true, it even continues in this thread right now with the "financially independent" as he calls himself @amir_asr lecturing us about money and audio. It never ends, unless uhhh what was that about someones pockets?

@jtgofish 

Amir what I meant by average is that there was no detail of the spread of listener preferences from which the type of listener average was calculated.That might have been quite an even and narrow bell curve or quite uneven and wide one.So it does not really show relative variability between individual listeners.

Full set of data is available in research papers from Dr. Olive. As are groupings.  There is no bell shape to them.  We are all remarkably similar in how we like uncolored sound (in blind/bias controlled testing).  There are sure to be outliers but unless  you know 100%, then better not think that. 

@kota1 

@fleschler

Going back to OP:

If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money.

There is no denying this as true, it even continues in this thread right now with the "financially independent" as he calls himself @amir_asr lecturing us about money and audio. It never ends, unless uhhh what was that about someones pockets?

It should now be very clear why we ban this individual.  Constant bickering with no constructive and useful information to share. It is all about him and what he demands to know. Give him answer and it goes in one ear and comes out the other, repeating the same argument over and over again.

Long term listening is still the gold standard of audio evaluation. Short term evaluations often lead to errors but it's much harder to hold an inaccurate evaluation over the course of many listening sessions and sometimes it takes many hours to find the faults of the playback system. 

Amir said:

I tested a PS audio directstream DAC. It measured poorly in low frequencies. After a bunch of back and forth with claims you believe in, it turns out that for cost reasons they used low quality transformers that produced more distortion! Multi-thousand dollar DAC used low quality parts...

Don't be so naive.  All manufacturers have price points.  If you do not like the sound of their DAC, move on.  Buy something that sounds better to you or tear them all apart until you find one built like you want it.  Danny, a real audio and measurement guy tests and tears down speakers costing thousands of dollars and shows us the low cost parts inside.  The speaker was built to have a certain sound and performance for its price point. It is not a gotcha game.  It is the realities of business.  Danny also designs upgrade kits for these speakers that one can buy if they are interested in improving the sound.  Every piece of gear has room for improvement no matter the cost point.

Something more useful might be durability testing.  HALT testing (Highly accelerated life testing) on gear to find the weak points and define the useful life of the gear would be interesting- but costly.

Now addressing this bit in OP:

@fleschler 

Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.  

How on earth did this pass as an argument? "Some of the posters" listen to this and some other music?  What if they did?  That makes them less of a music lover and audiophile?

The tastes of our membership runs the gamut just like it does in any forum.  We have a long list pinned to our home page: 

It has nearly 16,000 tracks/albums people love!  Clearly OP has no idea about our music preferences any more than he does about every other thing he claimed there.

Long term listening is still the gold standard of audio evaluation

I thought our aural memory was very short. 

@amir_asr , I saw the pic of your system, can you comment on why you chose those speakers? I know they must measure nice but a lot of speakers measure nice. Why those? Are you here to discuss audio or throw rocks at the OP like a "miscreant"?

My first post, so feel free to attack me. As a new member, all I see is a bunch of irate people desperately trying to defend their investment in suboptimal equipment by claiming that they are somehow gifted  in their hearing, but without the balls to actually put that to a blind test. Indeed they seem so insecure in their own beliefs that they respond with vitriol and illogic when challenged. 

Now maybe not all of you are like that. I hope so. But please, those people, come forward and say so. 

@tonywinga 

Danny, a real audio and measurement guy tests and tears down speakers costing thousands of dollars and shows us the low cost parts inside. 

He does with the clear aim of making a ton of money from you.  He claims to have upgraded this and that part.  While he measures the speaker, he refuses to provide any measurements showing these upgrades have any value in this regard. He also does NOT listen to any upgraded speaker.  He claims "he just knows" it makes the sound better.  I am sure.... Someone said to follow the money.  I said you are not and here is perfect proof of it.

Why not be more critical of company's claims when they are trying to sell you something?  Why not hold them to a high standard of proof?  Danny says it with that charming southern accent so must be true?

The kits he sells are hugely overpriced. None of his DIY solutions are competitive. By the time you waste all that money on his upgraded parts, you could get far better performing speakers across the board.

I tested his GLK 2.0 which was absolutely terrible even though it has all those upgraded parts: 

Really, if you are into hero worshipping and appeal to authority instead of facts and knowledge, we don't have much to talk about.

No we don't.

@tonywinga , we have a lot to talk about, Danny is amazing, and he and @amir_asr apparently had a falling out, take his reply in context.

That is because Danny listens to the products.  He also understands and explains what the measurements mean and how it affects the sound.  At least on the videos that I watched.  And his upgrade kits make sense.  Plenty of DIY'ers do the same things.

Amir I see you still haven't addressed my comment about Nelson Pass.

@djones51 I thought our aural memory was very short. 

I understand that to be true. I'm not a fan of A-B testing. I think you have to optimize each setup and listen for a long time. In the end you'll be able to learn which system you prefer but I wouldn't say you'll know which one is better, too many variables. Unless there are gross differences.

I had a boss once decades ago that was obsessed with data.  He just wanted to test and test.  It didn't seem to go anywhere.  He wanted more data and just could not finalize anything.  Testing for the sake of testing is pointless.  It has to mean something.  Compare the data to listening tests or what?  Measurements by themselves mean nothing.  But to conclude something does not sound good because the measurements say it doesn't is circular reasoning.  That is because the key ingredient to how it sounds is to listen to it.  Measurements are a means to an end.  How it sounds is the end- the final word on the subject.  

Kind of like the old adage, " There comes a time in the life of any project when it is necessary to shoot the engineer and start production."

@amir_asr ..."The kits he sells are hugely overpriced. None of his DIY solutions are competitive. By the time you waste all that money on his upgraded parts, you could get far better performing speakers across the board.", unquote.

True Story: As a curiosity test - I helped a close friend who paid for Danny’s service to analyze one of his speakers, test it, to design and layout all new crossovers, parts, connectors. In the process the speakers were converted from a 2.5 way to a 3-way crossover layout on a 20 year old speaker. All drivers were re-coned in the process. I use to build speakers for a living and designed a few myself, fwiw. The Grand Mozart speaker I’m referring to is featured on one of Danny’s videos.

About 1/5 the cost of a new comparable pair. Sounds notably better than stock. Buddy is super happy with the service, design, and parts. Turned out really nice, more musical too. Buddy is quite proud of himself taking the chance to test out Danny first hand.

Nothing better than the measured value of a happy customer.

@tonywinga 

That is because Danny listens to the products.  He also understands and explains what the measurements mean and how it affects the sound.  At least on the videos that I watched.  And his upgrade kits make sense.  Plenty of DIY'ers do the same things.

Once more, he does NOT listen to any speaker he upgrades.  Ever!  He says this in videos from time to time.  Even if he does not, watch one of his upgrade videos.  All he shows are crude before and after frequency response measurements and that is it.  You are supposed to trust him that the sound got better.

As to his upgrades making sense, they do most of the time from technical point of view.  But not remotely on cost basis.  He also detests EQ which can do the same thing for free.  As member said, follow the money.  EQ doesn't make him money so he doesn't like it.  What proof he provides?  He just knows that it doesn't.

@amir_asr , I think Danny gets lots of customers who post a lot of good reviews, is a fair businessman, and a good communicator. Are you still upset with him over that falling out you two had? I saw him very sincerely reach out to you on his channel, can't you let it go by now?

@tonywinga 

Measurements by themselves mean nothing. 

That's right.  This is the reason we follow extensive research into what measurements to use and invest incredible amount of money and time to get them.  The research into speaker design is very authoritative.  But if you have not read and understand them, then you wind up being dismissive.  Membership in ASR will get you that knowledge.  Without it, you are lost forever, throwing random darts at the wall.

Note that I listen to every speaker I review.  Measurements are the foundation but I test them by listening. And equalization.

I also listen to every headphone and every headphone amplifier.  These constitute about half of what I review.

I perform more listening tests in a month than others do in a year or even lifetime!

So the notion that we only measure on ASR is completely wrong. It is a false notion to justify having one's head in the sand regarding authoritative work that we on ASR.  

@russ69 

"Long term listening is still the gold standard of audio evaluation. Short term evaluations often lead to errors but it's much harder to hold an inaccurate evaluation over the course of many listening sessions and sometimes it takes many hours to find the faults of the playback system. 

That is a myth unfortunately.  Your long term memory is quite "lossy" as the brain can't possibly remember everything the hearing system captures.  This has been proven through controlled listening tests: 

"The results were that the Long Island group [Audiophile/Take Home Group] was unable to identify the distortion in either of their tests. SMWTMS's listeners also failed the "take home" test scoring 11 correct out of 18 which fails to be significant at the 5% confidence level. However, using the A/B/X test, the SMWTMS not only proved audibility of the distortion within 45 minutes, but they went on to correctly identify a lower amount. The A/B/X test was proven to be more sensitive than long-term listening for this task."

See how we behave on ASR?  you say something but provide no proof.  I say it and not only provide proof, but also fundamentals of how our hearing works.

I find it funny that this thread instigated an owner of another site to come here and defend himself and his site.

But how convenient to leave topics he has no idea about and only reply to those which are close to his heart. Never discussed about my last post here on why everyone hears the same sound differently.

Also, what's the point of measuring so many electronics? I don't think he runs a charity. Everyone has got a reason. I don't believe he is doing community service, cause I have seen after every measurement he asks for charity.

And this same poster says that Audiogon members are "biased". But the he measures the equipment and claims to listen to them. How does bias not set in at that point? After all he is a ordinary human being and bias is in human nature.

@milpai +10, you nailed it, he can't reply to topics he knows nothing about on this site, where on his site he will just ban you so he doesn't reveal that his tank is empty.

@kota1 ,

Banning folks displays frustration in my view. When you have no answers to questions OR when you cannot convince the other party to be on the same page as you, you ban the person. And then come here and claim that the person was asked for evidence.

I am glad that sites like Audiogon does not have this banning process for people who stick to their beliefs. If I don't like your point of view, then good day to you and we are all good. No offense.

And it is even more funny, when I read about how the science folks say that posters here are ok with science related to chips in cars, aerodymanics, control neuclear technology, etc. Are we dealing with kids on that site? Do they understand the difference between "being human and having senses" and "human inventions that are non-living things"? We have a "hearing" sense. How are all those inventions they talking about related to senses? Those are "inventions to make life easy", so that we have more time for enjoying life (including listening to music). Looks like they are such a frustrated bunch that they cannot even think properly now. Medical science needs to come up with a pill to cure that bunch of their frustrations.

Amir,

As an audio equipment reviewer, why do you choose not to actually listen (with music) to every audio component you review?

Note that I already understand (from your prior post) that you do listen to speakers & headphones. I'm wondering why you limit actual listening tests to those and don't bother to listen (again with music) to amps, dac's, etc. 

@fleschler 

"Audiophiles are Snobs"  Youtube features an idiot!  He states, with no equivocation,  that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good.  He is either deaf or a liar or both! 

I think you miss Darko's point. He made no unequivocal statements that generalised that way. He certainly listens to and describes differences between gear—specific comparisons, not general ones—and he doesn't offer measurements. Try watching a bit more.

There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review.  If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public.  They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better.   They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance.   Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.  

Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?

Although Darko has done room measurements and room treatment, ASR is quite different to Darko in other respects. ASR would probably say they are measurements-first, but as Amir has posted here, he certainly listens to headphones and speakers. At times he notes subjective responses that don't exactly line up with measurements (iirc a Buchardt speaker that didn't sound as good as it graphed, and a Wilson that was the opposite). Darko says he is music-first, and doesn't do measurements on gear at all.

As for musical taste, ASR skews pretty old (compared to me :-) and the 'music we are listening to' thread/s are full of stuff may parents recall (but generally more mainstream). Absolutely not limited to post-1995. Almost the opposite. There is an electronic music thread which is much better. Amir himself appears to have quite varied taste based on his testing playlist (no hyperpop or glitchcore, but a fair few good modern composers and groups that wouldn't put me off).

Darko of course has great taste in music, which is the main reason I watch his stuff.

As for tribalism, audio Taliban and such, sure there's unfortunate internet aggro and posturing. You'll even find threads where people can't cope with descriptors like 'warm' for frequency response, no matter how patiently others posters explain common terminology. But STEM-educated people don't always have language skills. And yes, if I said that on ASR I'd get an instant slap from their mods and some penalty points to go with it. So I don't.

@axo1989 , welcome to the forum, if you look at the various threads here besides this one is there anything that catches your interest? Feel free to ask anything audio related you would like and I think you will enjoy the back and forth banter and the wide range of posters and opinions.

@boxer12 

 

Amir,

As an audio equipment reviewer, why do you choose not to actually listen (with music) to every audio component you review?

Note that I already understand (from your prior post) that you do listen to speakers & headphones. I'm wondering why you limit actual listening tests to those and don't bother to listen (again with music) to amps, dac's, etc. 

Speakers and headphones as you know have big differences from each other.  Furthermore, I can use blind testing of EQ to verify measurement accuracy.

With headphone amps, I push them to limit to see when they get distorted.  Once there, there is no debate there.

With other classes of devices, impairments get very small to non-existent.  No ad-hoc sighted test is going to be reliable and produce defensible claims.  The only believable data would be controlled, double blind testing.  I simply don't have the time or resources for this type of testing.  So measurements plus psychoacoustic analysis stand in as substitute.

I do listen to this other class by the way in my everyday enjoyment and work.  A headphone amp or speaker/headphone is driven by DACs. I do not find them to have any coloration or distortion.  Stuff subjectivists report are like fantasy to me.  I have probably 100 to 150 DACs here (no exaggeration). I have yet to fire one up and say, "oh, the soundstage has changed, bass is this and that, etc."  This is of course backed by measurements and psychoanalysis measurement.

For people who claim there are differences in this class of equipment, for once, they need to perform an AB test without their eyes and with enough trials to provide reliable results.  If they can even identify the difference, I will give them a cookie.  :) 

Our brain is a wonderful thing in the way it can adapt and change how it works.  It can work without analyzing fidelity, or be told to focus into the smallest detail.  The latter is what happens when audiophiles are testing gear.  Such focused analysis results in hearing things that were always there, but discarded by the brain.  It is NOT the result of the gear being different.  Once this concept is understood, there won't be requests for "why don't you listen with music."

Among essentially transparent gear, I identify the ones that are best engineered.  Much of this gear is also extremely economical, providing a perfect selection for your systems.  That is, if you believe in audio science, engineering and how one's perception works.

Let's say for a moment the above is not true.  And that there are audible difference.  Why would you trust what I would have to say about it?  Why do you trust anyone?  Is your room the same as theirs? You play the same music? Your ears are the same?  You see the problem?  This is myth piled on top of myth that anything reliable is stated in subjective evaluation of audio electronics.

BTW, professional reviewers were tests with speakers in blind controlled tests.  They did very poorly and could not even produce reliable let alone correct assessments!  

Notice how reviewers were worse than audio salespeople!  

"See how we behave on ASR?"

Yes, like absolute arrogant "miscreants", who think they have nothing to learn from others.Just like Amir is behaving here.

milpai "But how convenient to leave topics he has no idea about, (many), and only reply to those which are close to his heart." +2

@tonywinga Danny refers to "flat earthers" in this video about the evidence he presented on cables. You can take a wild guess who the "flat earthers" are, I have no idea, naturally, but apparently it did not sit well with "some" people, hence the attacks on Danny from the person in this thread who obviously is defending the "flat earthers" :). 

@kota1 

Thank you.

amir_asr,

Speakers and headphones as you know have big differences from each other.

agreed

With other classes of devices, impairments get very small to non-existent.

Now that statement takes a leap of faith, no, a chasm of faith. Other classes of devices mean EVERYTHING except speakers and headphones? Please explain and if you have some evidence of this please post a link, don’t worry if you don’t have any of the accepted evidence here ,I doubt you’ll get banned.

I simply don’t have the time or resources for this type of testing.

Agreed, you are "financially independent" right? Outsource it or don’t do the review. Basically it reads like you are simply guesstimating these results and presenting them as fact. If I tried presenting such a sloppy review on ASR you know what happens? It rhymes with "tan". :)

As an example of comprehensive level of testing I do, and on topic of Danny and cables, here is a video review of his power cable:

@invalid 

How can anything new be invented if we already have perfection according to the measurements you guys often talk about. 

Putting aside once more the mischaracterization that my reviews are only measurements, some devices have achieved audible perfection, some have not.  state of the art DACs for example exceed the capabilities of our hearing even in the best case situations.  You might think you can hear my toilet flush from where you live, but you can't really.  Your hearing has limits so equipment only needs to get better than it which is the case now.

In other cases such as speakers and headphones, perfection is not remotely there.  

I think your disconnect is that you believe marketing hype that every day there is a new DAC that solves an audible problem. You know, what every audio company claims with out a single shred of proof.  No listening tests for example that demonstrates anything.

What is remarkable is that in audio, person after person comes to the defense of manufacturers, backing their marketing claims and throwing the poor consumer under the bus.  So much money is wasted because consumers have put their guard down completely and joined the other camp!

Show them independent testing and they scuff at that.  "Oh, this means nothing can be invented then."  Or yeh?  Why do you want something to be invented?  Why not spend your extra cash on music? Or a nice meal?  Or a vacation?  Must you go and waste it away on some new power cable? A DAC?  Why oh why?