End of a long quest to vanquish sibilance.

Ok, well congratulations! But, I can’t imagining finding that but to stumble on it.

It is interesting. I realized, that I will usually only put so much effort (quite a bit) into solving a problem. Then just go on. Typically, I’ll do something unexpected and discover the real cause of the problem. I realize I developed this largely unconscious method over decades of problem solving… you just made me conscious of it. Thanks.

@ghdprentice 

Interesting. I wonder if some other part of the brain kicks in once we exhaust the possibilities dictated by reason.

I agree that in my case, I probably would never had discovered the root of the problem had I not happened to demo speakers with taller cabinets. I would've gone on to exploring power conditioners and perhaps given up entirely on vocal music... 

I was just lucky, I guess. 

Congrats on solving the issue. It’s a good feeling when it all comes together.

Good deal! In the end it doesn't matter if you figured it out or got lucky. Glad your happy.

@ozzy62

Thanks.

It’s certainly a great relief and fine for now. It’s a novel experience hearing vocals without being assaulted by distorted plosives and ssshhh "trails".

I do miss the bass response I got with the Aqua DAC -- the Hegel H390’s internal DAC definitely lags behind in this regard but then, the Hegel’s DAC is not at all fatiguing.

l’ll demo standalone DACs when I can afford to do so.

@acman3 

Yes!  

Can anyone comment on why these pavers (or similar) would be causing sibilance?  I am always trying to improve the upper frequencies which sometime trouble me.  I know my speakers are not traditionally fixed to my floor with the supplied isolator fee.  

@stuartk It would be interesting to see if a rubber or heavy fabric pad between the floor and the paver and the paver and the stand would also remove the sibilance.  

@12many

It would be interesting to see if a rubber or heavy fabric pad between the floor and the paver and the paver and the stand would also remove the sibilance.

FYI, I have Herbie’s gliders attached to the bottom of the stands. Sorry for not mentioning this earlier. They didn’t inhibit the sibilance.

I am always trying to improve the upper frequencies which sometime trouble me. 

I’m very sensitive to high frequencies/bright sound. 

In my case, there was fatigue, but it was due to the DAC I was using at the time, not the pavers. Once the DAC was removed from the system, the fatigue went away. It was not a subtle improvement!

Hope you're able to tame whatever is causing you trouble. 

OP: Congratulations! Glad to hear that the years-long mystery is solved. Yes, everything matters!

As per the photos in your virtual system, the coffee table has a very reflective surface - not only for light waves - but also for sound waves. Changing the height of the tweeter changes the angle of reflection off the coffee table - as any pool/billiard player would appreciate. By any chance, have you ever put a blanket on the coffee table to observe if it affects the SQ?

Also, adding a subwoofer (or two) will help to fill out the sound field. When I added LF, I was surprised how the HF became relatively more mellow - more integrated into the entire presentation. Enjoy the music!

From my experience, I think you are sensitive to Time and Phase coherence.

Bob 

@steakster I know what you mean about the coffee table. My son is familiar with working in a recording studio and was convinced that I should try Dirac Live. So, we tried it. My room measured reasonably flat, so I didn't bother to buy it.

At one point in the measuring process, we were getting a weird spike (or dip, I can't remember).  I had my laptop sitting on a coffee table with the screen up.  We closed the laptop and the abnormality went away. 

@steakster

Thanks.

Yes; I’ve tried covering the coffee table and I didn’t notice any sonic differences. Same story with draping blankets over the slate hearth/glass fireplace insert. I’ve experimented with this several times.

As you can see, I have very limited potential locations for subs.

@gdnrbob

Could you explain it in layman’s terms?

@stuartk  Great that you sorted it out. I would like to know what physics were involved in the cause though. 

@noromance

I would, too but to be to honest, my focus has, so far, been on enjoying listening again.

The fact that I had the same speakers, same stands on the pavers with different (less resolving) electronics and experienced no sibilance remains a mystery to me but I’m a music lover who enjoys good sound rather than a bonafide audiophile. I lack the technical background that might help me understand what is going on in terms of physics. 

Congratulations to you @stuartk for not giving up and continuing to try different things until you figured it out. Glad it worked out and you are back to listening to music once again 

@decooney

Thanks.

Life without music is a grim prospect!

Now I’m back to enjoying listening with a system that has no glaring imbalances-- not a bad foundation from which to proceed when finances allow.

@stuartk glad to hear you were able to eliminate that nuisance. Your perseverance paid off! I’m actually not in a least bit surprised. I’ve not had good experience with platforms/vibration control devices with any components I ever owned owned. Good solid rack or amp stands is what worked best for me. Enjoy the music!

I still remember the time I had finally gotten a really great (for me) setup:  Brand new 25wpc OTL tube amp, Reference 3A DeCapo I speakers, Pioneer RT-909 tape deck, Music Hall 7 TT with MC cartridge, and a $1K dac/preamp that was supposed to be SOTA at the time but I hated the sound of it (bleeding ears is the best way to describe it).

Anyway to make  a long story short, I was listening one night, everything sounded fantastic, and I remember turning my head a fraction of an inch, and hearing a BIG change in the highs. Hmm, what the heck?

Tried turning my head back and forth repeatedly and yep, the change was very noticeable and easily repeatable.

I have never since been super-fussy about perfect highs (except like OP finding a way to eliminate sibilance), realizing that if a big change would occur from turning my head a fraction of an inch, then chasing perfection was a losing proposition unless I went permanently to phones...

@stuartk ​​@nonoise @ et all......

Happy that the former had 'solved' his issue with sssibilancesss, but it does point out that 'what you hear IS what you hear'....until you change Something within the chain of your devices..........

And, of course, the space they're within...

And the old Silverlines sound OK now....?

Congratulations!  You've rewired your brain...
It's as simple as that...

That's why you need at least 3 pairs of speakers, 2 preamps 3 pairs of amps 4 dacs 2 phonostage 3 turntables and 5 sets of all kinds of cables!!!

It's important to realize that sibilance, and other distortions, are sometimes "baked in" to the recording. Nothing to do about this. 

@sls883 +1 I replaced my front coffee table with an end table by the side of my chair. Whatever works. 🤔

@steakster  +1

I can easily hear the "glare" coming off the coffee table in front of the listening position.  So that somehow disappeared into the garbage truck one day.

Shouldn't be anything between you and the speakers unless of course it sounds better to the user.  Not my experience though.

Now let's talk about wing chairs!

Regards,

barts

Seeing as how speakers are the only possible thing that might produce "sibilance" I'd have checked those first, but maybe that's just me. 

@audphile1

Thanks!

@asvjerry

Yes; the Silverlines sound fine. I don’t, at this point, see any justification in attributing fatigue or sibilance to them. I may look into replacing them, at some point, but for now, I’m more inclined to be guided by the "if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it" maxim. I’m more inclined to explore DACs as I’m pretty certain the Hegel integrated’s internal DAC can be bested by a separate DAC.

@iseland

Sure -- if you can afford it! Why not? That’s not my situation, though. Even if I had teh $, I don’t have the space!

@dweller

Yes; of course. I get that. But I was experiencing exaggerated sibilance, on all vocal CDs.

@steakster

Moving the coffee table is impractical simply due to the room and existing other furniture. Not an ideal situation but it’s what I have to work with.

@barts

Well, I’ve tried covering the coffee table’s glass top, slate hearth and glass-fronted fireplace insert with blankets and foam and heard no difference. I hate tipped up or otherwise fatiguing sound so if doing these things made a perceptible difference, I would surely do them! I have lots of glass and closing the lined drapes also makes no difference. I’ve been told that covering glass with most fabrics will not help much and this has certainly been my experience. If I had a dedicated room, I would try attaching some of the "tuning" devices sold by Synergistic Research to glass surfaces but my wife, understandably, is not open to this in the living room.

@roadcykler

I can’t argue with your logic. All I can report is that 1) having removed the pavers sibilance is gone and 2) with previous (less resolving) components and the same speakers, there was no sibilance.

@ltmandella 

While I've read about that scenario, I've never noticed it. 

"Well, I’ve tried covering the coffee table’s glass top, slate hearth and glass-fronted fireplace insert with blankets and foam and heard no difference. I hate tipped up or otherwise fatiguing sound so if doing these things made a perceptible difference, I would surely do them! I have lots of glass and closing the lined drapes also makes no difference. I’ve been told that covering glass with most fabrics will not help much and this has certainly been my experience. If I had a dedicated room, I would try attaching some of the "tuning" devices sold by Synergistic Research to glass surfaces but my wife, understandably, is not open to this in the living room."

Oh, they make a difference.  It is just small and you can't do any of these things in "real time" so that you can instantaneously go back and forth to actually "hear" the small differences.

I would bet that if you get an app for your phone that does frequency analysis, or a Real Time Analyzer, you could see the small differences and compare them side-by-side.

BTW, I have a glass coffee table and I put a black cloth over it both for projector and sound purposes.

https://youtu.be/axP5o643kfI

@toddalin

Oh, they make a difference. It is just small and you can’t do any of these things in "real time" so that you can instantaneously go back and forth to actually "hear" the small differences.

Sounds plausible.

BTW, I have a glass coffee table and I put a black cloth over it both for projector and sound purposes.

What type of fabric, exactly? Why choose black over any other color? 

Anything helps on glass but a heavier weave seems like it would be better.

Black matters not for sound but for video reflection from the projector screen. This is our everyday "TV" set.

Joking aside,  maybe I'm fortunate enough to have the space (and funds) enough to accommodate all the  equipment but I do have 3 different kind of speakers I play around with.  A pair of martin logan sequel II and dynaudio contour 60 and a pair of horns .

It all depends of the taste of the week,  jazz rock classical electronic ..

Btw I set my eyes on my next pair ( avantgarde colibrie) should arrive in about 8 weeks 😁

I wonder if the lowering of the speakers by removing the pavers took you out of a hot spot in the vertical dispersion pattern of the speakers. You could slump down a few inches in your chair and see if it returns.

Hey @stuartk 

I’m so glad to hear you fixed your sibilance issues! I was given permission to buy the new speakers we have talked about, so now I’ll have hundreds of hours to fiddle with them until they’re just right.😁

@stuartk ,

Some people are sensitive to time and phase inaccuracies. Your mentioning 'sibilance' would be one of characteristics -A subtle harshness in the upper frequencies.

B

Having swapped out everything except speakers, with no impact on sibilance, I identified a pair of monitors that 1) I could afford, 2) are universally praised and 3) come with a refund policy. I figured this was the only thing left to try, aside from power conditioning.

So, I will reiterate : "Everything matters" actually does mean every thing!

So, only the speakers mattered in your case (everything didn’t matter, apparently)...you replaced your trash speakers and the sibilance went away. You tried replacing everything else and the sibilance remained. Stop confusing yourself.

@deep_333

Your interpretation is entirely off the mark.

Maybe consider reading things a little more carefully before jumping immediately to erroneous conclusions. 

I’m an old professional audio guy who spent over 25 years fighting sibilance in the analog magnetic tape era. I must say this post brings back many memories dealing with high frequency distortion. Eliminating sibilance was probably the hardest thing I dealt with. It will be interesting to see if your sibilance problem was really resolved by removing the paver. I could be wrong, but a couple inches of speaker height shouldn’t cause the introduction of sibilance, especially after the other room treatments had no effect on it.Consider that instead of something being wrong with your system, it could be that something is just right to the point that you can hear sibilance recorded in the original.

@philliprcook 

I was thinking it had something to do with the pavers, rather than the height.

If I lift myself up a few inches from my listening chair, so that my ear is positioned roughly where it used to be with pavers in place, I hear no sibilance.

You are far more knowledgable than I am but I find it very difficult to believe that every vocal CD I own is equally flawed in this regard. 

Is it possible then that since it's not height, it could be the increased rigidity of the speaker vibrating the tweeters? 

@philliprcook 

If the stands themselves had been shortened, then I suppose they would be more rigid. But that's not the case, here.  

Now the stands are in contact with the hardwood floor, which certainly has more mass than the pavers, if that matters. Also, I wasn't using single pavers -- I had two pavers butted up against one-another under each stand. Perhaps that was a factor? 

Perhaps someone with more expertise in such matters will comment.

Concrete, being a denser and stiffer material than wood, tends to have a higher resonant frequency and may be a reason for increased high end.

@philliprcook 

You may be right. From what I can tell from listening, it seems to be more a function of the material than the height change. 

There are two sources of sibilance, recording generated and system generated. There are a few recordings that are sibiant no matter what you do other than generate a Grundy Notch Filter, will remain sibilant.

System generated sibilance is virtually a universal problem. Everyone is aware that the easiest way to cure sibilance is to turn down the volume. Everyone should be aware that the frequency response of our ears changes with volume. Fletcher and Munson demonstrated this and generated a series of frequency response curves or Loudness curves. As volume increases our ears become more sensitive to Bass and treble. If I remember the inflection point is at about 3500 Hz. To achieve the same loudness at say 90 dB that you have at 70 dB you have to decrease the bass and treble about 10 dB. A flat curve never sounds right. It will have to little bass and too much treble. If a system is tune to sound right at 70 dB when you turn it up to 95 dB you will have way too much treble and decent bass. The end result is sound that makes one squint. To add insult to injury our hearing is most sensitive at 3500 Hz and it is in this area that sibilance is most prevalent. This is also where the BBC's Grundy notch filter or curve is active. There are only two cures for a sibilant system, use a lower volume that is not sibilant and digital signal processing.  There is a volume for each individual recording that sounds right depending on the volume it was mixed at. You either play at that volume or generate an equal loudness curve for a higher volume. I have three different equal loudness curves programmed, one of the three usually works well. For bad recordings I have a BBC Grundy notch filter I can add. 

Fiddling with equipment is a costly and usually ineffective way of dealing with sibiance. Sound absorption at all the first reflection points might help, but won't get rid of the problem entirely. The best way to deal with this was the dynamic loudness control in the Tact 2.2X and it was wonderful. The system sounded exactly the same regardless of volume. Unfortunately that unit died after 20 some odd years. So, I bounce back and forth between the three curves and listen at the volume things sound right.  

@mijostyn 

All I can say is that I haven't experienced any noticeable link between volume and  sibilance at the levels I typically employ. Doesn't mean it's not happening-- I simply don't hear it. Sibilance might get worse at levels higher than 75dB but I never push the volume that far. Below say 65dB, my system doesn't come alive. This could be due to the size of the space relative to the small drivers and/or noise floor of the components. 

Happily I only had trouble with sibilants only with one speaker solid state preamp decades ago. Never since at any volume.

@stuartk Many people habitually do not play their systems loud because they do not like it or they live in a situation where it would be unacceptable like an apartment complex. I promise you if it sounds balanced at low levels at some point when you turn it up it will make you squint. This assumes that you are not a Martian or deaf. 

@ghdprentice Neither do I because my system is tuned for high levels. Unless you can accommodate, your system sounds dull and bassless at very low levels. This assumes you are not a Martian or deaf.   If you are telling me your system sounds great at 95 dB and at 70 dB without a frequency response adjustment you are a Martian and deaf to boot. What human ears do a various volumes is a scientific fact. 

@mijostyn

Now that you mention it, on occasion, when I’ve cranked the volume so I can hear it better in another room, I’ve noticed a fatiguing edge. I never turn it up that loud when in my listening chair, though. 

I wonder how many people suggested you buy expensive speaker cables or power conditioners. Glad you were able to wide through the snake oil. 

@stuartk , this was an interesting read. I am happy for you that you resolved the issue. It’s interesting, because I’ve read other posts in other threads by listeners who found squares of concrete as a satisfactory way of elevating their tweeter height; I think I may have read of a reviewer or two talking about that. I am not questioning/doubting you at all; just noting that. I’ll remember it for my own purposes as well. My chair happens to put me at a height that my ears are at or maybe even a bit below my tweeters, and I can adjust by adjusting my slouch.   Not too crazy long ago I was breaking in/auditioning a new pair of speakers, and I think it was a distortion test track on a test CD I was playing with, and I remember thinking that I heard the distortion more clearly when I was sitting up & my head was more forward. Which I guess should maybe equate to my hearing being better in that position? I played around with that aspect of listening for a little bit, but that was driving me neurotic and totally taking the pleasure out of the experience.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, which speakers were you trying out that led you to solving the issue by removing the pavers?

Now that you mention it, on occasion, when I’ve cranked the volume so I can hear it better in another room, I’ve noticed a fatiguing edge. I never turn it up that loud when in my listening chair, though.

As far as the above, not that it applies to sibilance, but back in the 90s, on the weekends when I was doing the majority of my listening, I had my system in the living room and I would be drinking and having a good time during my listening and I would frequently have it cranked up to earbleed levels; in the living room it would sound pretty dirty at those levels, but when I would go out to the backporch where I was barbecuing, it still seemed LOUD, but I thought it sounded pretty good from back there. (Now my system is in a smaller dedicated back bedroom, and the way I listen is considerably different.)

@deep_333

Your interpretation is entirely off the mark.

Maybe consider reading things a little more carefully before jumping immediately to erroneous conclusions.

+1 on that.

I think we can all agree, given the OP’s evidence, that the single one entity causing sibilance, was the use of concrete pavers under the speaker stands. If that is the case, then some quality of the installation must be responsible. I have my own speculations, but does anyone have any specific, um, concrete explanation as to the cause of this effect? I’d love the opportunity to be on-site to find the answer.

@immatthewj 

I'd rather not disclose the make/model of the speakers. They are very highly regarded, as is their builder and I have no desire to raise any doubts about either. Based on what I've read, I'm very much an outlier in terms of how they sounded to me in my room. 

@noromance 

I don't know whether this matters but, due to weight considerations, I actually had two pavers, butted up against one, under each stand. The pavers were textured, so there was a bit of a gap between each pair. 

Maybe this was asked, but if you put the pavers back where they were, does the sibilance return?