I don’t have the long term experience owning many tube amps like some here have, but I’ve done a bunch of research and listened to quite a few systems. My 2nd tube integrated (which I own now) is the Raven Audio Osprey at around $5K. They sell direct only so no dealer margins to pay and offer a 45 day in home trial for a nominal restocking fee. Service is exceptional. I like the sub-out with 80Hz filter/bypass feature - it drives my 2 RELs. I’m so impressed with Raven I’m trying to upgrade/trade-in the Osprey this year for 100% of it’s purchase price to the $15K Refection. My system is detailed in my profile. |
Rogers High Fidelity on their website has a pre - owned EHF 200 Mark II Integrated amp w/ full lifetime warranty! Very high quality, sounds excellent & quite powerful! 100 watts / side pure class A so it does put out some heat. About $15K new. I’ve had mine for 1 1/2 years & it’s a great piece which I highly recommend. It is substantially better than Mac, Prima Luna & probably any other integrated tube amp under $15 K. Handmade , point to point wired by Roger Gibboni & a small group of skilled pro’s. |
@charles1dad AD1. Built around the EML tube. |
kiwibikerAny suggestions of the specific tubes that you might think would make a positive difference? |
I know we all post about what we have used. My tube background isn't that extensive but I've had the Rogers 65v-2, I still own the LTA Z40+ integrated and now I also own the Don Sachs Valhalla. The Valhalla is about 33 watts and is really really nice. This is made now by someone Don taught to make it and has a decent warranty. If it interests you at all, I can link up the site that describes it and put you in touch with the guy who makes them now. |
dz13Thanks for sharing that. The Valhalla looks intriguing and I'm bookmarking the site. It could be a key one for me up ahead as I slowly move to make some decisions on equipment additions in the coming year. 👍 |
Which model are they closest to from the Daedalus line? The reason I’m asking is wondering about the impedance of your speakers.
Mods, upgrades to PL400? - Was looking up your existing PL400 amp too. I’ve never heard one. Always wondered, an associate has one with some speakers we built in common. He likes his. Looking over some two year old specs, shows they may run the plate voltage pretty low on that amp of yours to spare output tubes long-long term. Might benefit more with the smaller opt tubes vs. the larger KT tubes. i.e. "keeping it in the window" for the specific tube - as one tech I follow mentioned recently. I’ve never heard that amp, always wondered why some owners resale or try others. Might be fun to have a handy tech to scope it out for mods before buying any more tubes for it. Also wondering if Upscale Audio has ever done any ultra-upgraded versions of that amp quietly in the diy underground by someone. Maybe more potential there too. Only mentioning this b/c all of my amps are modded, upgraded, and with helpful tech friends have realized some amazing improvements with even better parts.
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Got it, now I understand why others were suggesting an uplift looking at other amps. Yeah, you’re only gonna get so much out of that bone stock PL and your speakers. You're in SET Triode amp or a lower power quality amp territory now, and with those speakers can be the sweet spot. Next chapter will be fun :) Lots to consider out there. Kinda depends on your typical volume levels you like to listen to as well. Heck I’d even recommend considering the Quicksilver Mid Monos, 50% triode, pretty sweet for the money with your speakers. I run QS myself. Plan on getting a really good separate linestage/preamp if you don’t go with some higher-end integrated amp again.
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With your budget, I'd get the Don Sachs ($3000) custom built version of the VTA SP14 preamp ($1600). They're both the exact same preamp, but the VTA looks like a home-brew kit. It is available as a kit and if you feel you'd enjoy the satisfaction of actually building something, that's even less at $1200. |
decooney and russbutton: Well guys, both the Don Sachs and the Quicksilver amps look like good paths to take. And neither kill a budget. You've given me a lot to think about. I do agree. I will probably give up the PL, as is, before going down an uncharted rabbit hole of tube rolling. I do think the PL is a great amp for some setups. And it does knock the socks off of visitors who don't analyze the finer nuances of music (as some of us do). I think I will move to a different amp solution up ahead. I must say that I lean toward integrated (in whatever brand) for simplicity but assembling some components isn't out of the question. |
It's amazing we got 2 pages of replies without someone recommending either a Lab12, Line Magnetic, or Leben. The Lab12 Integre4 MK2 is as good as the review says and is my next amp purchase. IMO probably is the best amp purchase below $10K and even beyond. Very musical with no compromise in PRAT. Leben CS600 is a stalwart and gives a perhaps a more romantic presentation. The waiting list for this is very long though unless you can get it used. |
OP If you haven't rolled some different tubes, especially in the Atlantic, you should. There's so much more waiting for you when changing out the stock supplied tubes. As for the PrimaLuna, I have no experience in tube rolling with that but almost invariably you have a whole lot of positive change going to some NOS compared to current production stock supplied tubes. |
gkr7007Thanks for the thoughts. I think the issue is not having a clue what tubes would add a significant improvement. If tubes were, say, $10 each, I could burn through all kinds of configurations and have fun exploring the sound variations. I did read a blurb by the Lampi designer stating that many tubes sounded great in the Atlantic--a very all-encompassing but noncommitted statement. In forums, others have said they couldn't find any tubes radically better than those chosen to be issued from factory. But I haven't found anything that has expressed replacing "a" with exactly "b" will render a whole new world of music. In reviews by mag writers, several noted that they changed out the tubes but returned to the originals and found them more balanced. So it doesn't inspire confidence to tube roll. If anything, particularly in the PL case, it makes one want to a/b the entire unit with others... I'll end this by saying it does make a lot of sense as the tube influences the sound so much. |
J.Chip, You are right, and I agree that, for some reason, a few have treated the PL like it was a printed board, cheaply designed amp. I chose it for its great reputation, reviews, user following, and quality build. That's why exploring other sounds/amps isn't something I would do based on deep dissatisfaction. As I wrote earlier in this thread, my queries have been to explore positively what else lies beyond the PL level and budget, just curious if I could find other tube amps that might further enhance my setup and musical tastes. |
Take a closer read. I and another poster suggested Line Magnetic amplifiers. Truth is that their are numerous excellent choices in the OP’s given budget range. Folks have posted many fine amplifier options. I don’t know how one could declare any specific one of them unequivocally as the “best” amplifier. Charles |
Oh, for a demo where 8-10 highly touted tube amps between $4k -$10 were placed in a single room with reasonable acoustics, well-rated DAC, revealing speakers, and tubes recommended by creator / manufacturer for the event. We could listen and opine and choose! I'll add that we must blind test them before revealing the brand or model. 😎 |
Ayon, Audiomat (I'm slightly biased owner of Audiomat), Audio Research and Octave. I owned or listened extensively those. Chose model appropriate for your speakers and room, with which I am not familiar with. |
---------------------------------- INSIDE VIEW - PL EVO 400 Integrated This could be what @carlsbad2 is referring to. Does not make it wrong, yet I’m counting at least 8 different little circuit boards inside, this pic is right off the Primaluna site, today. Typically a true point-to-pont wired component does not have any circuit boards, or at least no boards in the signal path. Would be fun to hear from some of the modifier/upgrade folks who know how to truly tweak this amp up more, and bring it to an entirely new level. Someone knows...
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If you search, there are some good threads on modding a PL. I think they are pre-Evo but may still apply to Evo. To continue to beat a dead horse though, I really don't think the supplied PL tubes are all that great - but ok.. I'm thinking that they expect most (?) will roll thier tubes anyway. I did a lot of searches here and on google as well as the reviews on Upscale and also with Brent Jesse (and purchased from him also). I'm still a bit of a newbie (but not new) and I would start with the music you like and what you prioritze in SQ and go from there. I chose KT-150s for the extra low end but also to my ears sound good throughout the spectrum. However, (better quality) E34s are better in the midrange (sweet) and there are a bunch of others. That said, I would start with the preamp tubes up front. I have Radiotechniques (sp) up in the two main slot and prefer them over NOS Mullards and Mazda Clittes. The Mullards were too bright in the upper mids and the Mazdas a bit too much treble IIRC. I have the Mazdas flanking the Radios on each side. Also, you have double the power tubes than I do ($). My Evo 300 Int sounds a lot better to my ears than the stock tubes. I heard my same speakers at a hifi show with a $20k tube amp. While the mids were slightly more clear, the highs and lows weren't any better and certainly not worth the $15k difference - again to my ears. My sound stage is better also but with all of this I'm trying to take into account that was a motel room with no treatment. It did sound fantastic, but not any better than mine (again, except more clear mids, but not $15k clear). Anyway, I'd start reading some of the comments and threads and also call Upscale and email Brent Jesse. |
Line Magnetic was mentioned, along with Leben, and Luxman. The benefit of a $6k budget is a wide selection of available choices. I would listen to as many amplifiers as possible. I would purchase used equipment, because I know I could resell for my cost (or at a small profit) if needed. I would start with a Line Magnetic or Triode TRV 845 Class A SET amp. Then move on to EL34 and KT88 amps from the same companies. I have a Triode TRV 845 PSE. Sublime sound, and rock steady reliability since I purchased the amp about 5.5 yrs ago. Cary CAD 805 (there have been several versions of this classic design over the years). For some this is a benchmark Class A SET amp. Others believe it is not accurate to some degree. Listen and decide for yourself. In my opinion, Leben is the equivalent of a golden age amplifier that is completely restored using new close tolerance and higher quality parts. A mix of classic and modern sound. There are several Audio Research and Conrad Johnson amplifiers that sound wonderful and are easily found. I regret selling a CJ MV45 and I have an AR D-70-MKII. Luxman MQ88 has been praised by everyone that has heard it. I use a pr of MA88 / 75th anniversary mono blocks. So relaxing and incisive to listen to. You may also investigate vintage amplifiers. Caveat is to be sure that the amp is completely rebuilt, not just restored with a mix of old and new parts. REBUILT. Some believe this may reduce value. I would rather have reliability and great sound.... Some may disagree. The elephant in the vintage room is McIntosh. Many will immediately recommend the MC275. Good amp, but not their best. If you want better sonics, then spend time with a pr of MC30 or a MC240. The MC225 sounds wonderful, but may not be powerful enough for your needs. Some would recommend a Marantz 8b, which is an easy default recommendation. But I think the Mac 30/240 sound better. Eico HF89 is a powerhouse of a KT88 stereo amp with a very wide frequency response. Fisher SA-1000 / EL34 Integrated amp and probably the best amplifier made by Fisher. This is a "final" amp for a discerning few. Harman Kardon Citation II. You have probably read about this amp. Everything you have read is true. Tube magic, and SS power. Capable of driving any load and delivers an ultra Wide Bandwidth, dead quiet background, brick house reliability if correctly rebuilt. This amp would cost at least $10k if remade today; and likely more than $10k in the current market. Lots of choices. Potential for lots of fun. Spend the summer acquiring a few amps, then enjoy the colder months by listening at your leisure while you watch the little cities of tubes glow in the twilight. |
@iopscrl Speaking of 805s, Did you by chance listen to or review the newer 805RS version, and compare to anything? ---------------- After my Cary SLI-80 and Cary V12R (both heavily upgraded), I was not in a position to buy the 805RS (or the room) and landed on Quicksilver Mono 120s, now with upgrades, same caps and others as my former Cary amps had. Sound very nice now, plenty of drive with KT120s or KT150s. PP purpose built for KT150s. Big quality transformers, power caps, 600v plate voltage. Driving the tubes "in the window" as I know it now. And, tried a few DH custom Inspire amps between. Not enough drive for my larger custom speakers. Maybe going back to full triode though, with a little more power/drive, maybe. Thought you might know this looking at the collection of amps you’ve commented on here so far. Since I still have and enjoy using my later my Cary SLP-98 preamp w/6SN7s, still kind of thinking about parting with the M120s down the road to help fund it some (deciding later this yer, not sure I will - can’t get them any more) yet possibly ordering the 805RS monos. 845s or 211s, not sure which. Damn things are 24" deep though. i.e. not referring to the older version 805s, just the new model, if you happen to know more. These -or- I may commission a good designer-builder to custom build some with some other (more available) opts, not 211s or 845s. Thx.
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@decooney I didn’t see @jchiappinelli ’s comment. thanks for answering for me. Yes, there are a lot of circuit bords inside this amp and in my opinion, it doesn’t sound like a cleanly wired simple point to point. A lot of that is probably the push/pull design. Yes, PL claims the important parts are point to point. My amp is all point to point. I have a friend who has taken a couple of simple PC based amps and rewired them to point to point with good success. PL would be pretty complicated for that. it has a lot of features that would be hard to integrate into a PTP. So when you want all those features, you may have to compromise. I first looked at PL when I was looking for an amp with an HT bypass and PL is one of the few tube amps with this feature. I figured out how to make it happen. Primaluna and Kevin Deal have a large fan club and my negative opinion is not going to change anyone’s mind. I’m glad so many people like them. I’ll fight to the death for the right to their opinion (all those folks who disagree with me). Finally, I’ll quote Henry Ford, "whenever 2 people always agree, one of them is unnecessary." I don’t think my opinions are valued enough that I’m influencing people. Jerry |
I do not see in any Posts where the Willsenton R8 is a suggestion, this is a model that might just meet the OP's needs, and leave quite a large proportion of the Budget intact. The Willsenton R8 has proved to be an Amp' that has got many customers left quite impressed. A member of the Local HiFi Group has demonstrated their one as a Base Model and with a Tube Upgrade. The system it has been demonstrated is a very familiar system to all Group Members where EAR Power Amplification > Quad 2912's are the resident devices. The R8 has impressed and eventually thoroughly impressed the attendees at the demo'. There has been the suggestion that by adding a Pass KB1 Pre-Amp', even more of a positive impression might follow. The R8 with Tube Upgrades (If desired) and Pass KB1 Pre-Amp' (If of Interest) should not drift to far over $2000 as a combined purchase. |
What about the design of the Wilsenton R8 amplifier would require someone to consider adding a Korg B1 preamp layer on top of it, and why? ----- R8: Noticed folks in Australia on the stereonet forum adding Rothwell RCA inline passive attenuators for source inputs -and- AK members discussing adding thermistors used to reduce inrush current on the R8. Why? Due to design issues -or- fixed in later versions of the R8? Definitely worth researching more before jumping in, imo. |
I am not a EE, I have covered many threads on build projects and in numerous seen threads, there will always be a broadened discussion over circuit design and the used topology. The OP @gregjacob stated " I wanted to see if there were any group suggestions for an integrated tube amp or tube / solid-state combo under 10k or, even better, under 6k. Still looking for my final purchase in this part of my system. Thanks everyone. " My notifying the OP was in keeping with their request and was informing that it was not necessary to use the whole of their allocated budget, my suggestion has shown this. The individual who supplied the R8 for demonstration, owns a Audio Company and has a customer base that has a selection of Customers who are quite content with spending 20-30 x the cost of the R8 on amplification. The idea of the R8 making such a good impression on this individual when adorned with Upgrade Tubes, supports the notion that a attractive Tube experience can be had for too much monies. For those that have an experience of the KB1, it will soon be learned that it has a transparency that few Pre-Amp's are capable of, when added to a Tube Power Amp', for this reason the KB1 design has proven to be a welcome addition. I have been demo'd a few guises of the KB1, as well as having a Bespoke Built KB1 demo'd in my system and have had a long-term loaned basic build design KB1 hooked up to my Bespoke Built PP 845's. This marriage has superseded owned Valve Pre's and a AVC. The impression made has resulted in my having a Bespoke Built Balanced design KB1 produced at present as my Pre-Amp of choice. One of the above KB1 owners had a Loan of a Bespoke Built KB1 at the time they were having demo's of Pre Amp's to be used with EAR Power Amp's, approx' £20000 of Pre-Amp's were home demo'd of which one was a EAR 868 and retailing at £5000. The Pre-Amp options were not limited to a Budget, the KB1 won the system owners favour, and a Bespoke Built KB1 is used in the system. Note: The KB1 does not do full bodied/lush as a presentation. |
Greg - You've certainly attracted a lot of good advice. Ha...maybe too much advice. For my two-cents worth, I owned the top of the line Prima Luna and did lots of tube rolling and such. Loved it for two years. But last year I heard and purchased a Line Magnetic 845ia and the "wow factor," as you put it earlier, took a huge leap up/forward - improved presence, body, speed, sound stage, more natural instrument tone, the whole schmear...and all non-fatiguing. My speakers are Forte IVs. As an aside, two weeks ago I added a Border Patrol DAC and my entire system improved yet again. Crazy, and I thought I had reached the promised land. |
neptune123Thanks so much! Yes, it's pretty overwhelming, and boy, I didn't expect so much advice! You have touched on the essence of this thread: exploring significant, worthwhile improvements in our already-good listening. I have been making a "short list" of tube amps as the thread has lengthened (and digressed a few times). I will put Line Magnetic on there as well. At this point, it isn't if I will change but when, what, and for how much money! Much appreciated. 👍 |
