Is it possible to really know what you're doing?

@lanx0003 

I agree that a reference / standard needs to be established.  ... This includes precise imaging—where each sound source is rendered with a clear, stable, and locational presence within the soundstage

Those of us who mainly listen to ’classical’ music do indeed have a reference / standard in live, unamplified performances in concert hall acoustics. 

These concert hall acoustics however do not offer a clear locational presence within a soundstage especially if several performers are playing simultaneously.

Try a large-scale Mahler symphony where at times over 100 musicians are playing simultaneously, often loudly.  Even when Mahler throttles back to say, a mandolin solo, the hall acoustics still dominate directivity!  See the MBL reference in my previous post ...

On questions like the OP posted, the subject is always in the context on one's system. A generality. The most important contributing factor is the room.

@devinplombier 

I would say that the first step is for a person to determine what type of speakers they prefer. That is, not brand or model; but rather speaker architecture. 

Is it open baffle? Planar? Stand-mount with subs? Active or passive?

Agree 100% - speakers are the most important component because of their inherent colourations and interference effects of drivers with each other and with the room.  But you missed a very important consideration - are they designed to emulate a point source of sound?

Answering this simple question can eliminate 99% of speakers!  Not to mention, antagonising the 99% of audiophiles who own those speakers. 

There is an interesting viewpoint on MBL's website: Company

@whart 

Thoughtful comments.

I dare say you know what you're doing.  Awesome Horn speakers and a turntable and everything else speaks highly of the wisdom you possess.

What a lovely space you have.

@emergingsoul said: "...does anyone really understand what they’re buying absent being an engineering tech savvy individual....

I think if it were based purely on engineering, one could do this in what I referred to above as a "holistic" approach, using specs and compatibility, room analysis and the like. My experience has been that every piece of equipment has some characteristic (coloration?)* that requires a more nuanced approach to matching pieces to achieve a result that works as a system. And that doesn’t even address room acoustics and placement (which again, can be done remotely by analysis but ultimately, to me, is also fine tuning by ear). 

I addressed your original question by observing that I don’t have an holistic approach to system building, since I need to hear the various components in combination in a given room, taking account of set up and placement. I readily admit I’m a subjectivist and don’t rely on specs or measurements alone, though I respect the engineering aspects and some of the basic issues like matching speaker and appropriate amp, impedance, gain, etc. 

*One thing I've observed on my journey in audio is that you often don't know there is a coloration until it is absent. That is often a revelation. 

It’s possible, but not many do. Have fun tweaking my friend and may the force be with you.

I agree that a reference / standard needs to be established.  Former dictionary such as Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines a stereo(phonic) system as a system of sound recording or reproduction using two or more separate channels to produce a more realistic effect by capturing the spatial dimensions of a performance.  So, imho, two keys elements defines a reference stereo system:

1. Realistic effect; and

2. Spatial dimensions.

In my pursuit of a reference audio system, I aim to achieve a setup that faithfully reproduces the tonal character (timbre) of instruments and voices with a high degree of accuracy.  This includes precise imaging—where each sound source is rendered with a clear, stable, and locational presence within the soundstage.  So, I were to lay out a specific metric for the reference system including:

1. Timbre accuracy;

2. Imaging; and

3. SS width, depth and height.

This metric may not be measurable instrumentally, but it can certainly be perceived in your listening space with a good pair of ears and a discerning mind. I believe you could always expand this metric to include many more elements you consider paramount. But bear with me for being simple-minded—and tell me, are you there yet?

Interesting philosophical comments throughout.

I guess my real focus was related to the technical aspects of audio systems. Given how complex these mystery boxes are, does anyone really understand what they're buying absent being an engineering tech savvy individual and there are many of them here on  this forum giving great advice.

People need a reference (and standard) in sound. So, they can start the audio from a standard point. And they know their goals. These points should be repeatable to everyone but no audio system is repeatable.

My audio system can be a standard and reference. It’s closest to the original sound, affordable, and repeatable.

Yes. I’ve reached the bottom. Those who reached the bottom, please post links your system. Showing a picture is no meaning in audio. Alex/WTA

lanx0003    The world of high-fidelity audio is like an ocean. ~ Like diving into deep water, it’s not something to approach unprepared.~ And no matter how deep you go, you’ll never quite reach the bottom.

I’d still like to know, if possible, who has claimed actually reached the bottom and what specific systems are so we could possibly use them as benchmark.  This is how we learn and grow, right?

The people who would claim this are typically the least trustworthy, and are inevitably trying to sell you something. 

Oh, many folks do! And then they keep digging. 

I’d still like to know, if possible, who has claimed actually reached the bottom and what specific systems are so we could possibly use them as benchmark.  This is how we learn and grow, right?

And no matter how deep you go, you’ll never quite reach the bottom.

Oh, many folks do! And then they keep digging.

@lanx0003 Playful sarcasm aside, your post is right on point.

The world of high-fidelity audio is like an ocean — beautiful, vast, and deceptively mysterious. On the surface, it might seem as simple as riding the waves: just plug in a few components and enjoy the music. But the water runs deep — diving in requires not only a wealth of knowledge but also a touch of fortune. And the deeper you go, the more you realize just how layered and complex it truly is especially in the following areas:

• Technical depth: Understanding gear specifications, DAC chip design, amplifier topologies, room acoustics, jitter, phase coherence, etc., demands a strong foundation in electronics, physics and, most relevantly, psychoacoustics.
• Subjective variability: What sounds “right” is often personal and system-dependent, requiring critical listening skills, patience, and trial and error.
• Tuning and synergy: The journey isn’t just about owning high-end gear.  It’s about components matching (could be a matter of luck), placement fine-tuning, vibration control, power supplies, cables, and even music formats.

In the world of music reproduction, you don’t just listen — you learn, test, tweak, and invest. The audio hobby is as rewarding as it is demanding. Like diving into deep water, it’s not something to approach unprepared. It requires a blend of curiosity, patience, critical thinking, and yes a measure of financial flexibility to navigate meaningfully. And no matter how deep you go, you'll never quite reach the bottom.

I hope I do not get long winded, as I would like to keep this short, but of my experience. I just want to say, I am happy to be part of this community, because it allows us all, with the sharing of a common interest. Even with the back-and-forth disagreements that are too prevalent here, it shows a human side of us, the goal to listen and enjoy music, and sound, with whatever your means are to get there. My childhood was listening to my dad’s big band, swing, Sinatra, B.Holiday, Sergio Mendez, and more, you get the idea. His system was a pair of AR2AX loudspeakers, a Fisher 500C, and a Dual 1219 / Shure V15 something, and he never listened to the tuner. The speakers, based on my mom’s decor, required 50 ft runs of speaker cable from the amp. Very nice overall, but I heard (not my dad) the 500C output stage not fulfilling the necessary job at hand (this was before I was 10). I was a singing contributor of school choirs until HS graduation. I was also involved in the gear part. I was grateful I had an ear for listening. This led me to the encouragement I gave my dad to replace the Fisher with a Sansui 8 Deluxe, based on my readings and research. The Fisher became mine, and I purchased/owned a pair of Klipsch Cornwall, the mirror imaged verticals, from my music teacher, who upgraded to Khorns. The Sansui GAVE LIFE to the 2AXs, that even Melvin, my dad, experienced, and so much appreciated. I suspected then that I was a solid- state guy, although I had several tube pieces, amp and pre, come in and out of my system, throughout the years. Many consulting jobs of mine were working alongside a decorator, and I needed to change some perspectives of mine. Many of these systems were set up where the speakers were never intended to be listened to from a sweet spot. However, I still needed to find out from the clients, what they were looking (listening) for. BTW, in the background, listening to Nothing Else Matters through FM 95.7 THE HOG, out of Daytona, as it sounds awesome............ I have stated this many times: if every recording "sounded" as good as your favorite "best sounding", the jumping from one piece to another would be easier, and lesser, imo. Two of my favorite amps, as they are both great, do different things from each other with the same recordings in my system. And, they also have similarities. I enjoy them both but am at a point I find it hard to lift them. Anyway, everything we do with changes/upgrades is to enjoy the music, the sound, or both. Recordings do not equal the sound of live unamplified music, but the "musicianship" and the "composition" are present in full bloom. We can still get a great deal of information off of our recordings, in the manor of which we decide, and enjoy for a few different reasons. You need to know what "listening characteristics" are important to you (the real point of all of this gab). I do not believe there is a single system we can all enjoy equally (live with), based on our tastes. Well, with unlimited funds and a room built for the job....maybe. My best, MrD.

@knotscott That's a great idea in your post about developing a taste for what you like.   If you're a classical music fan, attend a performance of an orchestra, or if you like string quartets, attend a performance.  Likewise if you like Jazz, go to a jazz club (you get the idea). 

Whether you like something or hate something at least you'll have a preference and that's probably a good place to start when you audition speakers.  You'll be disappointed by all of them in some way but as you keep listening, you'll figure it out.

I would say that the first step is for a person to determine what type of speakers they prefer. That is, not brand or model; but rather speaker architecture. 

Is it open baffle? Planar? Stand-mount with subs? Active or passive? One of these will likely agree with a given room better than others.

If one finds ported enclosures unworthy of consideration, they are in luck for they can now safely ignore 90% of speakers on earth. Why are 90% of speakers ported? Because glueing one foot of ABS pipe into a 2" hole in the cabinet is a heck of a lot cheaper than a second woofer.

Once one is settled on a speaker type, they are free to narrow it down further to make / model.

Then, to find amps that makes their new speakers smile and sing! This step is perhaps the most crucial. Many people think it's easy, but it's not.

Then, to locate an excellent preamp; or, at least, one good enough to make their sources shine.

@pindac often speaks of the End Sound in his thoughtful posts, and that is a very good concept indeed because the end sound is not determined by any single component, but rather by the entire system coming together as one in a holistic way.

There is another way, a shortcut to perfect sound.

The company Audio Note UK provide everything you need for music enjoyment. Starting from mains cable, CDP, CDT, DAC, Amps, interconnects to speakers and speaker cables. Best of all their components are matched for most natural and emotional sound.

https://www.audionote.co uk

The Audio Note components are separated in so called performance performance levels. The different levels allows you to compose a system fitting your budget without sacrificing the unmatched emotional Audio Note sound.

It might seem boring, but allows you to simply enjoy music from day one.

Audio Note UK knows what they are doing - always aiming for the most natural and emotional sound!

+1. Why merry-go-round constant upgrade? Why do 99% a’philes listen by themselves? Why is this great/beautiful music listening activity a lonely hobby? Few decades ago, many people enjoy music, singing, and dance. Why not anymore? The musicality of hi-fi is declining.

There are people who don’t want you to know the truth. It’s just good business. Alex/WTA

blackbag20   Our understanding and proficiency is increased when spend time with anything ... but do we ever know what’s really going on?  No.

@drmuso 

You have an interesting system really like it.

There's a lot going on here.  vintage older stuff which is always cool

In addition to what others have mentioned, I relied on Stereophile reviews and on seeing what gear manufacturers and dealers chose to use at a Stereophile-sponsored audio show I attended.  I was fortunate also to know a dealer who sold me his demo units of the amplifier that was used in designing the speakers I bought (and still have).  That helped greatly in getting the crucial match between amp and speakers.  At a couple dealers I had heard the speakers with other amps, and these amps sounded better.  So, I also relied on two high-end dealers whose ears and knowledge I respected to assemble the core of my system.

Unfortunately, dealers have to pay for the equipment before they can display it and therefore diversity of what they have available is limited.  I have tried so often to pursue components that dealers don’t even have even though they represent the brand. While There are exceptions fortunately, I’m finding more and more dealers have no experience with what they are selling.  

there are a lot of phenomenal components out there which I would love to explore but getting to them and understanding them better by actually listening to them it’s just not possible.  There are people out there who truly understand what goes on inside all the mystery boxes but this is limited and I hate spending so much time talking to these people when know I probably won’t buy anything from them, but I really appreciate the time they spend with me.

I don’t think anybody really enjoys making decisions about what audio equipment they buy because of all the poor marketing materials they have to read through and then in the end they have no clue at all about what they’re buying.

I can relate to or understand every experience and/or perspective presented thus far in this thread. Is it difficult, is it easy? Its all of the above, you just have to experience it for yourself, I think this 'hobby' is more a journey than some set path to some precise destination. And so many paths to follow on this journey, its all pretty mind boggling. On the other hand one could turn off the curiosity cap.

@onhwy61  stated " You don't have to know anything, you can just pay somebody who does know.  There was a time when that was the role of the audio dealer. "

I have to agree with this, when I first needed to grasp what was beyond where I was with an Audio System after a period of time having a dedicated audio set up.

I was very very very fortunate to have met a individual involved the HiFi Confidential near Victoria Train Station in London.

The member of the Team in HiFi Confidential who's name was Luigi, knew I was tight for cash, with a young family and not too well paying job.

Luigi also knew my passion to experience and learn audio system related matters.

Over the course of 18 months or more after my initial visit, I was invited to the premises on quite a few occasions to experience new assemblies of Analogue Sourced Set Ups in the dedicated listening room.

I would be given a description of the equipment and left to do my thing, only occasionally checked in on, to experience my brought along LP's for an hour or more.

This was gifted with no obligation, I may have not remunerated anybody from HiFi Confidential for their support or sale items.

I got sound I was to become familiar with and use it as a measure at other demo's and I am still the same enthusiast today, making audio encounters available to others without no concerns for receiving anything. 

Others where audio is the shared interest are certainly being treated the same way that I have indelible memories of being treated.       

Back in the day, I’d go to a HiFi store and listen to what was new nd exciting.  Today most of those stores are closed.  It really makes it hard to roll equipment in my system.  Having said that, I’m really happy with my current system.  I will update my DAC eventually, but I’m in no real hurry. I like the sound of ladder DAC’s, so I’ll probably stick with one of them, but.

You don't have to know anything, you can just pay somebody who does know.  There was a time when that was the role of the audio dealer.  Now people are into the "journey" and want to make their own choices.  Some people quickly figure stuff out and others wander thru the desert.  At some point it really doesn't matter because we're not designing commercial aircraft where mistakes can cost lives.

@emergingsoul Within the interest in audio equipment there are only a few things that matter.

The First is how one Weds to the Source Material, are they a Tape, Vinyl Album, CD, Streamed / File user.

The Second is whether one is Monogamous in their being Wed to a Source Material, or if one is Polygamous in how they Wed to a Source Material.

Then what matters, is whether one is content with only one version of the Source Materials embedded data being extracted and sent or if one is content only when being able to have a selection of options on how embedded data is extracted to be sent.

An embedded data once extracted is speedily converted to a electrical energy to undertake a Journey where the electrical energy will be Amplified / Gain Added.

The electrical energy is to travel through a selection of devices used to add additional Amplification / Gain. Electrical Energy is not beamed it needs a conduit to travel both within a device and external to a device.

Each Device and Umbilical used as the connection between devices are quite Capable of adding a trait of the design that will be detectable as an audible influence. 

The Experience being anticipated once the Data is extracted is End Sound, usually in the form of Music.

Downstream of the Data extraction any device used to manage the electrical energy / sent signal has the capacity to influence the End Sound to be produced.

The Speaker which is the only device in use downstream of the embedded data being extracted and sent, is the only device in the set up able to produce sound.

Speakers have a vast range of discernible differences in how a End Sound is produced and being perceived as a Sound. 

Why would a person be Monogamous in relation to devices and ancillaries used to create a Audio System. 

Why would a person be Polygamous in relation to devices and ancillaries used to create a Audio System.

For myself locking myself into a marriage of one choice of devices makes the audio experience bland, the option to intervene and produce End Sound that stands out for its qualities, but delivers an injection of a differing to the influence on the End Sound, is where I am most content as an enthusiast of creating Audio Systems. 

In Audio being Faithful to a intent for a systems creation or to a Philosophy of how a system should be produced will supply a very satisfying musical encounter.

It also limits exposing oneself to experiences and broadening the learning through extending the musical encounters that can be had, which is a commodity most with an interest in audio equipment seeks out.

I think the OP is alluding to whether there is a holistic approach to system building, rather than trial and error. Sure there are some basics in terms of matching power/current needs from amp to speakers and some impedance/gain issues in the entire chain, but for me, I cannot look at specs on paper and conclude that a given set up is going to sound "real," leaving aside the room and set up of the system with a given room (the acoustics part, rather than the electronics/signal part). 

I built my current main system through trial and some minimal error- improving what needed to be changed to get it closer to my ideal. Some of those improvements might be regarded as "lateral" rather than "upgrades" based on price, others (like turntable isolation) were done of necessity, still others based on my experience from past set ups (electrical power).  I already knew a lot of what the core components did well and where they were lacking in this current room set up so had to learn how to take better advantage of a new room. Some of that experience told me what tubes I preferred in certain positions in voicing the system but these were refinements based on long experience with the particular gear in combination. The system is "tweaked" to that degree and a change in phono cartridge from a few other "high end" brands to another one "brought it home" that last iota--which was only revealed once everything else was in sync. 

This still leaves me with the conclusion that I have no universal approach to system building in the sense that I can take the abstract at a given budget for a particular room and apply a view or philosophy that will yield a predicted result with a given combination of unfamiliar components in a given room. Instead, it is listening in situ in a controlled environment that has enabled me to assemble and optimize what I had.

My vintage system, based largely on 50+ year old components which I have owned since they were new, is in some ways, more forgiving and I was replicating what I had in place in 1975 (with a few substitutions). But, though that system sounds great for what it is, it represents a "time capsule" system and not an attempt at state of the art reproduction (though it can be very convincing on certain program material). 

Our understanding and proficiency is increased when spend time with anything ... but do we ever know what's really going on?  No.

Finding balance and perspective can hard for people who have the discretionary time and money for audio.

Sometimes when I find myself obsessing over audio, I look at other parts of my life and the world and suspect that I could be doing other things. Maybe even helping others. It helps restore my confidence that my audio is good enough. 

When I can ignore the equipment stack and enjoy the music. System synergy is the key and when I find it, I attribute it to luck.

I do like the speaker and amp rolling. You could always get a equilizer to change the sound if your brain becomes fatigued to your sound. The body produces endorphins when it's happy like the runners high. It could just be from a physiology standpoint that we get use to the sound and don't get the runners high and it requires a change to get that back. Maybe we could get a gov grant to buy expensive equipment and study the physiology of addiction. Off to usaid I go. Enjoy the music and the hunt.

I think we sometimes make it too complicated. It helps, of course, to have dealers or others that you can trust for guidance. There are tons of readily available information for the discerning- sometimes too much.  At the end of the day, how does it sound to you?  Its not about trying to meet some mythical technical standard, or building a system according to what others think. Its not splitting atoms-its just finding equipment in your price range that make listening enjoyable, relaxing and keeps you coming back. 

Once you do that, there is always room for improvement but you've crossed the line.

If it sounds good it is good.

@cleeds Easy on the common sense, bud.

Trial and error is part of the fun IMO.  Listen to lots of different components and you will know when something sounds good to you.  That's all that matters.

You can "train" yourself how to listen, and gain enough experience with systems and components until you become adept at recognizing what sounds "wrong" versus "right", versus what you like. Some people ramp up faster than others, just like everything. Then you pile on basic literacy in electronics and acoustics - more specifically for hifi audio - plus some diagnostics ability, and the right mix of skepticism plus open-mindedness (good luck) - and voila, you sort of know what you're doing!

Just like in my career, asking questions has been completely useless and ineffective 99% of the time for me, lol. A.I. won't help with that. Focusing on what I'm doing, plus sum of experiences over time time, is what does it for me. My listening "skills" were also a damn mess for a long time because I was drinking too much (quit 4 years ago now).

I think very very many here are very happy with the music systems they have put together...

I remember when cd players were all the rage. I read an article about the Micromega stage two. I managed to get one and behold best sound player I’ve ever heard. It was so musical. Unfortunately it was not reliable. Thus began my frustration. It took 25 different players before I found The sound. Ended up with a Meridian 508.24. Not sure it was as musical as my Micromega, but it was as close asI could get. So my point here is, this hobby can be frustrating if you are looking for that  particular sound. 
 

For me it seems no matter what equipment you have at some point I think you get bored. So to counter that, I have 6 amps and 12 pairs of speakers. So when I get bored I switch out something. As been said, at some point you just have to enjoy the music. The journey ends when You end it.

Learning what sounds good to you is a huge step, and that can actually take quite a while.  I remember being frustrated early on because I didn't know what it was supposed to sound like.  Developing a real reference from listening to natural acoustic music and vocals can help too.  If you’re fortunate enough to get good exposure to a true top performing system(s), and talented mentor(s) can only help in your recognition of what a great system can sound like.  

In the end it’s really every man (or woman) for himself.  It’s YOUR journey, and you’re the one that needs to be satisfied. Enjoy it!

It’s a total potshot and potential waste of lots of money whenever one does not know what they are doing. 
 

Options:

1) live and learn and pay the price along the way

2) go with gear that someone who knows what they are doing integrated for you.  Kef ls60s are a good example. 
 

In any case unless you hire someone who knows what they are doing it is still always up to you to integrate a system into your listening room well. Trial and error and live and learn works well always there. 

Op yes it’s possible to know what you are doing. You know the basic of matching.

I know what you mean. When I started about fifty years ago, no question I was stumbling around in the dark. With lots of listening, research and a couple bad choices I learned some very basic rules and kinda had some clue of what I wanted.  

I spent a lot of time in dealers, trying to figure out how you hear the speaker vs the amp, vs the preamp... etc. 

Over the next couple decades, I researched and upgraded every five years or so... as my finances allowed. I traveled extensively, so was able to stop by an audio store here and there around the country. I became good friends with a couple audio dealers. Most importantly, I did extensive testing... borrowing a few different components. Also I did hundreds of hours testing interconnects and cables. I wanted to understand what they could do. I did detailed comparisons on variables which I had to figure out. So, from this I understood what mattered and how much. 

Then I set out to get my ears tuned to the real thing. Listened to lots of live music, acoustic where I could, then ten years 7th row center symphony season tickets. Also, as I traveled during all that time (a lot) I listened to music constantly on the best available portable rigs... changing technology as it improved, always at the cutting edge. 

Finally when forty years had gone by, I was really comfortable. I could walk in an assess the sonic characteristics of a system. I could detect distortion that is not directly heard... determine noise floor. I would understand how I would change it. I can imagine what components that I am familiar with will sound like. Most importantly the last two upgrades, I knew exactly which components I needed to get exactly the sound I was looking for, and each step along the way fell into place, exactly like I had envisioned. 

I do not, by a long shot know everything. But I am really comfortable in building and assessing sound systems and acoustic spaces. It took forty years of dedication and experience. This is one of the reasons I like to forum. Questions are posed that I have never thought about, and it makes me think through things I haven't before. I learn a lot through these questions and some of the other experienced audiophiles that post here. 

Reminds me somewhat of my career as well. By the end, I could walk into a huge project and with a minimum of meetings and observations assess where it was, if was it on schedule and if it was going to be successful (NO) and figure out exactly how to fix it. 

"@emergingsoul At least I'm able to appreciate what I'm listening to which is all that really matters, and know if something sounds good."

There you go.  You are on the right track. This is what matters. A time will come when you grow tired of messing with different components and just enjoy listening to the music again.  Listening to and comparing different components as a primary focus most of the time can get to be rather tiring and boring after a while. Take breaks, go back to listening to music to help learn to enjoy your system all over again.  I just took a 90 day break from my system leading into summer. Listening a little early this morning, the system is enjoyable to listen to again. Best of Luck.  

OP I’ve been in this hobby for good 35 yrs. Everytime my listening skills improve my system need some upgrade. That’s what I noticed. Otherwise the system is ok if my ears are contented, As long as you are happy that is what counts.

Our little world of audio is not nearly as complicated as some would have us believe.