I’m looking for advice on what vendors to look at as l’d really like to add a subwoofer to my 2 channel setup. The room is c. 30x15 feet or 42 square meters with low ceiling of about 7.5 feet or 2.2 meters. Budget is c.$2,000 and my 2 channel speakers are Sonus Faber Sonetto VIII. My amp offers pre-out connection. I’d like REL but their S range is now too expensive, so something close in musicality would be great.
@gdnrbob, yes Richard Vandersteen's rather unique practice of using a woofer below it's natural resonance frequency works extremely well. I have not seen mention of anyone else using this approach.
High passing the main speakers makes so much sense I'm surprised it is not more widely adopted. As you say: it unloads the amp essentially providing more headroom and reduces speaker IM distortion.
I have a DIY line stage where I can select between output terminals and have one of them with a single cap and resistor soldered in place forming a simple line level high-pass. For those interested who do not want to butcher their kit just connect it to either end of your interconnect cables.
The value of cap depends on the input impedance of the power amp or the internal impedance of the tape loop in your integrated amp.
Google PLLXO (passive line level cross over) for tables and simple formula. This is not only the least expensive way to do this but also probably causes the least damage by avoiding extra cables and their associated connectors.
@highend64, thanks for the heads up on Rational Acoustics. I was not aware of this and will be looking into it. I use mostly Omnimic V2 available from Parts Express.
@mofojo Nice to hear a realistic direct experience.
I had an early version F113 in the house. When used with the early Velodyne DD Optimization the smaller F113 was surprisingly every bit as potent as the larger DD-18.
At the time both manufacturers were not only similarly priced but seemed to be on the same developmental timing trajectory. I too had a similar positive service experience just prior to the 2019 sale.
I hate to offer another way, as you seem to be narrowing down options, but, in my opinion, using the Vandersteen subs would be best way to integrate a subwoofer into your system.
The use of a 1st order high pass filter doesn't introduce any delays in the time/phase of the signal. It also lets you amplifier do more by eliminating the demanding lower notes.
I have used other subs in my system and they just don't integrate as seamlessly nor easily as the Vandy subs.
The main constraint is that you need to buy the crossover (either fixed or the M5-HP which allows you to change impedance load from the amplifier). Older models like the 2w/2wq can be had quite reasonably used. The new Sub 3 has an equalizer built in, and can be tuned to the room.
@lemonhaze Great advice on room response. Some don’t have tools to use to dial in the sub or subs if more then two so they play it by ear. Luckily I have REW but I use more with DIv2 a Rational Acoustics software and for this purpose it is great. For my situation, I have Vandersteen 2ci speakers which has the bass couplers that has enough bass so one sub for me is more then enough to reinforce the lower bass response.
I have read the links that was posted earlier and really has some great information. Peaks are easier to tame then nulls as long the nulls aren’t more then 3 db difference.
@gotvinyl, thanks for the compliment. Yes Duke's Swarm or Debra are great and great value. However although the multi-sub approach is amazing I find that the lower frequencies in some rooms take too long to decay and some help from bass traps help reduce the decay time and provide even greater improvement.
Measurement using REW or similar is the icing on the cake to really dial things in. The CSD or waterfall plot clearly indicates where any problems or resonances lie.
Lemonhaze is giving good advise. The Rythmik subs are a great value. Danny at GR Reasearch has a video on the subs that is worth watching.
IMO subwoofers and subwoofer setup are the most frequently misunderstood and poorly executed areas of the audio realm. Two is better than one and four is a swarm. Save up and buy an Audiokinesis Swarm and you will have the best bass extension attainable, there’s nothing like it! And you won’t be spending money on acoustic treatments for the bass.
@sparksgja, I lost somehow a long post when I clicked on 'review' I'll keep it shorter and try again.
On page 1 two links were provided: one by @ditusaand one by @audiorustyand I strongly encourage you to read them. The contents will clear up some conflicting opinions. This should be required reading for all.
In almost any thread on subs there are those who complain of slow bass. No such thing! They may hear that sounds seem muffled and indistinct but it is not because the speaker is slow, the driver will obey the input signal, it has no option. This is more thoroughly covered in the links mentioned.
Let me explain: All rooms without exception have modal issues with bass waves combining either in phase or out of phase and also in between creating peaks, nulls and partial nulls. An in-phase condition will result in a peak which can be 15 to 20 dB higher than other frequencies causing what is known as either one-note bass, boomy bass or slow bass because the elevated peak takes longer to decay than the rest of the spectrum. It will be apparent then that the muddle resulting is not pleasant to listen to.
This common problem can be dealt with in 2 ways by adding room treatment or by adding multi-subs or better still is to use both. When you do both you are effectively taking the room acoustics out of the equation, so what are you left with? You are left with being transported to the venue which is the ideal situation and needs to be heard.
It has been suggested to get 2 lesser subs than just one big expensive one and I fully agree. The best I have heard are servo subs available from both Brian Ding at Rythmik and Danny Ritchie from GR Research. Available as DIY kit too. I have at the moment a REL and an SVS and find SVS superior but will build a servo sub to add to the system, not for more bass but for more of the multi-sub magic 😎
If you go this route, in addition to taming the peaks there is a corresponding filling in of the nulls which are as big a problem as the peaks, Nulls are like black holes for music, there isn't any music, it's been cancelled. The more subs the smooother the response allowing you to hear all the music without having some important bits swallowed up in black holes 🤔
The subs to look for IMO should be sealed and have continuous phase adjustment which will make integration much easier. My 2 small subs augmenting some OB speakers fill my well treated 5X7 meter room with tight slamming and detailed bass enhancing not only the bottom end but indeed everything providing a rewarding and immersive experience.
I mentioned on another thread that on a few certain recordings I can hear the size of the big hall even before the music has started.
Just curious here but in these "need lower-end" subwoofer discussions I rarely see responses for Monitor Audio. I am using a Monitor Audio RSW12 in my setup which matches wonderfully with my 1.6 Magnepans! Are the Monitor Audios out of the price range or is it something else? 🤔
I have a pair of SVS SB3000’s and they are great. App allows you to dial them in to whatever you’re listening to and the are fast and responsive. I’ve used them with Monitor Gold 200’s and Cornwalls and they complement both.
I must also admit I'm tempted by the Arendal 1723 SUBWOOFER 2S at $2,500 as a one and done solution.
I would say no. Don’t do that. Getting two lesser subs will provide much better overall performance than one more expensive sub. Get two cheaper Arendal, Rhythmik, or SVS subs. And I agree that REL is overpriced relative to the highly competent competition.
I use the smaller 1961 1s in my bedroom setup (mostly used for home theater) and found the controls (e.g. variable phase, selection of roll off slopes) very useful and it was surprisingly easy to integrate with the Magnepan LRS+.
Thanks again for all the advice. Right now I'm considering the Rythmik F12 XLR3 gloss white with A370XLR3 amp or the Arendal 1723 SUBWOOFER 1S in satin white - with the option to go to two later, if needed. I must also admit I'm tempted by the Arendal 1723 SUBWOOFER 2S at $2,500 as a one and done solution.
Like many I was leaning to REL (but only because there is so much hype around them) but from a value for money perspective their prices have leaped enormously in the past 2 years and made them much less attractive from a value perspective.
By the way I saw another thread yesterday on DAC's https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/dac-recommendations-please-2
and was fascinated by the BARD AI review from @ghdprentice AI since its trained on existing data is highly susceptible to information bias too, but nonetheless maybe something Audiogon should be looking at and using members feedback?
If you get two subs, you can also try each as L/R mono ( = stereo subs), and you can conversely stack them vertically and run each in stereo (L + R channel signals) to see if an “array” approach improves their “collective” directivity. Stacking may be more difficult with the model (Gallo TR3-D) I recommended vs. the others, but the benefits might (MIGHT) remain the same 😉
I would highly recommend going the two sub route. You have a decently large space to fill that will surely have peaks and nodes. With subs 1+1=3! You have a great system and some good subs will really enhance your listening experience. Good luck and cheers.
I am critical of subwoofers and most recently owned two REL T9i units.
The RELs sounded excellent but had a couple flaws that made me sell them. The level control was too coarse for properly matching with my main speakers- one click position and the sub overpowered the main speakers and on the lower click the output dropped too low for some reason.
They did not extend at the sub bass frequencies which is something I prefer- a strong output at 20Hz.
My new subs are the SVS SB 2000 Pro. They have excellent output and 20 Hz and give that deep bass sound and feel. The App control is very fine- level setting and matching is easy. The DSP is also useful, I used it to tame a few high peaks on the left subwoofer to smooth the response.
If you have room, the SVS SB3000 is super impressive and has a bit better tone than the SB 2000 Pro. The SB 3000s were too large for my space.
+1 for the Rythmik F12G. That's what I paired my Magnepan MMGs with (very, very well I might add).
I later added a small M&K K-10 in an opposing corner just for kicks to help fill out the room.
The Rythmik subs are highly adjustable, appear to be about as fast as any sub on the market and IMO offer all the slam anyone could need regardless of music. I don't understand the comment on Rythmik subs not being good for rock slam. They'll eat pipe organ lows for lunch and drink rock slam as an aperitif, near as I can tell.
The KC62 was recommended to me for its speed or ability to keep up with my main speakers. It’s the only sub I’ve tried, and I am very satisfied with it.
Subjectively, I like the KC 62’s size and industrial design. And, while I couldn’t say so based on direct experience, others who have vast subwoofer experience and expertise have posted that small rooms do very well with small subs for 2C listening. To be clear, I’m declaring my room small, not the OP’s.
Not sure if it’s been said, but SVS has a model that competes with the KC62 for less money. John Darko compared them to each other on YT.
I listen to classical organ, and orchestral music, and early rock. I don’t understand why REL is so expensive for what you get. Examples; T9x is -6db at 27 hz., 1500 US. Classic 98 is 1400 US with identical response figures. The S/510 is down -6db at 20 hz. Now we’re starting to plumb the depths, but 2500 US ? They’re pretty, but way too expensive for what I call an honest subwoofer.
Following my own advice (see topic "Happy Holidays and Your Favorite Tips?) ... I consulted with a long time subwoofer builder who has great passion around the topic, also others having formidable experience. I was guided to a Rythmic Direct Servo sealed L12 for my purist 2 channel small studio. Still selling at a delivered price of $629, it integrates seamlessly with my super quick monitors, digs into the low 20's and abounds in musicality. I found one well-placed sub superior to having two, in my system. Money saved can be applied to bass traps. Bonne chance.
@soix I think your suggestion to go for one of the F12G instead is right as I am still conflicted about going so large and I thought @noodlyarm comments of using F12G’s we’re interesting about room size and his Totem speakers.
Just got my Absolute Sound issue (Jan. 2024). They highlight products of the year. You might look into the Golden Ear ForceField 30. It got a Product of the Year from The Absolute Sound. I have no expericene with the sub, just passing along info. It's $900, with a 1000W switching amp, a 8-inch long throw driver with a downward firing passive radiator.
@mofojoThat's great to hear. Happy to hear that as an owner of two JL Audio subs. Paradigm was not at all like that. They quoted me $1,700 to "fix" my dead sub that cost $2,500. I'd of course rather spend the $1,700 on a new sub.
My point was that unless the manufacturer is willing to repair the sub for a reasonable price, taking it to a certified audio repair facility-- they will tell you that they can't repair it.
JL Audio is a good exception to that. Good to know, thanks.
"I think you are right not to spend too much, as Class D amps (I think all subs use Class D) can’t be repaired once they fail. I spent about $2,500 on a Paradigm sub for my home theatre setup and it failed after about a decade of use. It’s why I’d never buy active speakers. Who wants to buy a pair of speakers that will only last a decade? JMHO."
I sent my JL F113 amp into JL to get fixed. It's a flat $450 charge and they put a bunch of new caps in from the V.2 line, replace anything broken and replace anything that is known to be problematic or doesn't measure out. I didn't think that was too bad a deal. If you send the entire sub in they will even replace or re cone the woofer if there is any degradation. Super responsive emails and really great to work with company IMO. I could not believe when I looked up the F113 current line and they are 6k! At that price I'd say they are probably overpriced! I think I paid like $3,500 12ish years ago. Guess my point is that class D can be repaired like any other amp.
@kennyc (Just found out how to include replies to individuals!) Articulate is what I want and getting real sound of the instrument (cello, double bass etc.) I'm leaning heavily now to ordering a single Rythmik E15HP2 to start and then going from there. I must admit the app capabilities of both Arendal and SVS appeal too, but with SVS I cannot get a white finish in the model I'd go for and I think the 15" woofer size of the Rythmik would move more air in my room.
"@kennyc Usually "musical" means enjoying the music as a whole but can also be at the expense of detail and accuracy. What you are looking for is an "articulate" subwoofer where the bottom notes sound like real instruments and not a boomy mess."
Kennyc, Absolutly. My description completely overlooked the mentioning of articulation in lower frequency presentation in my question to the OP's meaning of 'musical'. Thank you for making that point.
I was attempting to bring to the OP's attention that his choice is a -6dB bass speaker that simply doesn't go that low with any authority and whether that was a priority.
I have ML ESL-X for 2channel and wanted something "quick" to blend with electrostats. SVS was an excellent option. as others mentioned, DSP app lets you dial it in.
My experience with SVS: beyond good!
- ordered an SP2000-pro AND a micro (dual 8") and demo'd in my system, knowing that I could only afford to keep one. I did receive a discount for buying a pair. Also note- the "blems" page has nice discounts. most blems you won't ever notice. they provide pictures.
- the SB was musical, but really powerful (12") I wanted badly to keep it but this is not home theater.
- the micro, with a pair of 8" matched best with the dual 8's in the mains. With 3 bands of DSP- able to configure +-dB, slope and Q I was able to prevent peaks and smooth out the response curve. This cannot be achieve without DSP
- I was able to return postage paid the SB2000-pro for full refund. They did NOT withhold the difference I saved from the "pair" discount! AND, a couple of weeks later, I received an additional credit for a price drop!
Take a close look at SVS. a pair of micros likely have sufficient output for your room and will be more musical. but if you desire lots of bass, a pair of SB will drive you out of the room.
@ditusaThanks for that link. Doug Blackburn and I both wrote for Soundstage at the same time, and I always admired his depth of knowledge. There were some really interesting discussions behind the scenes at Soundstage between the two Dougs at Soundstage (Blackburn and founder Schneider) about the virtues of time/phase coherence that was a most interesting read. They completely disagreed with each other and both made very valid and interesting arguments, but it was always respectful and I learned a lot from that discourse. Anyway, thanks again for that dated yet still very useful link — I bookmarked it for future reference.
soix +2. I have a SVS SB2000 PRO. I got in on CL for $350.00! SVS was kind enough to send me the optional foam port plugs. Two of them would help with room acoustics and tonal balance issues. It’s big. I’ve rarely seen larger. Two of them would be beautiful I think with your Sonus Fabers.
It goes down to 17hz. I never realized how much information was down there (below 35hz.) in a wide variety of program material. At lower volumes nothing is missing.
Look used for better value. There is an ad here on Agon for a pair of S/510 for $2,700.00 (located in Chicago). I know, above your stated budget but maybe you could up the budget a little bit and make an offer. Then you get two of the subs you want!
To everyone who has responded to my search for advice I cannot overstate how grateful I am for all the links, personal experiences and knowledge being shared. I don’t know if it’s making the task any easier as it looks like there are so many options to explore. The audiorusty link to the sounddoctor articles is eye opening and thank you soix for your insights.
I’m using two Rel, T/7x with Magnepan 1.7i speakers and they work amazingly well in my large room. I started out with just one, which sounded very good, but adding a second one took the bass to another level. They blend so well with the Maggies, that you can’t tell your listening to subs. They’re fast & tight & keep up with the speed of the Maggies. I personally don't see the need for the Rel S series.
Here are some videos from Paul McGowan of PS Audio, giving his take on connecting subs to amp outputs vs pre-amp outputs. Also, his take on one vs two subs.
I own 2 JL e110’s in my setup and they work wonderfully with my Raidho XT-2’s.
Highly recommend them. Bought them in high gloss for around $1,500 each several years ago, I think the price has gone up to about $2,000 each.
I think you are right not to spend too much, as Class D amps (I think all subs use Class D) can’t be repaired once they fail. I spent about $2,500 on a Paradigm sub for my home theatre setup and it failed after about a decade of use. It’s why I’d never buy active speakers. Who wants to buy a pair of speakers that will only last a decade? JMHO.
Strong recommendation for a pair of used Vandersteen 2Wq subs. I bought one, then a second, and eventually bought the M5HP battery biased crossovers. They are, to me, ideal. Deep, tuneful bass when it's present in the source material, and not heard when it's not. The only caveat is that your mains must go down to about 40Hz in order to blend properly with the 2Wq. They are designed to sit in the corner, where most people put them anyway. I mass load mine with floor tiles and ammo. When bass heavy stuff is played, I can feel the bass, with the room energized. But there is never any boominess or bloat, or obscuring of the frequencies above the Vandy subs. I like them so much that when I last shopped for speakers, being a good match for the 2Wqs was a major requirement.
FWIW I have an Arendal 1723 1s. I use it in my modest 5,1 HT. It is a fantastic sub, two for music would fit you very well. I consider them the equivalent to an SVS SB 4000-in specs. They have a 45 day audition period. You had mentioned it on your list of candidates.
Take a look at HSU Research ULS-15 MK2 Dual Drive. I’ve had HSU subs in one iteration or another for 25 yrs and have never felt like I needed “better”. However, if you need variable phase control look elsewhere.
I just acquired a pair of new Rythmik F15HP2 Subwoofers. I’ve only had them a day. Paired them with my Totem Element Metal V2, which I think share some pleasant similarities with your Sonus Faber.
I am very pleased with the various tools on the subs to accommodate dialing in the paring with my speakers. These subs are fast, detailed, articulate, and blend perfectly. They go down to 14Hz and will play very quietly as well as deafeningly loud. You might start with one sub, then add a second later, or go with two of the 12” subs now. Either route will be within or close to your stated price range.
And don’t forget to just enjoy the music along the way.
A pair of SVS SB-3000s would be my choice, sweet spot in their lineup, small enough to not dominate visually, and go very deep and loud, the icing on the cake is the remote adjustability via the app, priceless!
The Rythmic IMO and IME is not a great rock sub. Does not hit hard…….. at all. I would take one JL over 2 Rythmics all day. My Fathom F113 is on its ways back from repair. JL and I’m sure a lot of other subs are visceral, the Rythmic is not. The JL has articulation which is what makes a great rock sub IMO. Amp weighs 30+ lbs and is class d with some big ole caps.
In my opinion if you are not listening to loud bass driven rock of some type, the addition of a subwoofer to a full range speaker will not make a big enough impact to justify the expense.
I couldn’t disagree with this opinion more. This is the statement from someone who has no idea what subwoofers are capable of.
I also feel the low end will give me more presence and atmosphere.
I TOTALLY AGREE with this statement and what was totally missed by the prior response. Subs add so much more than just more bass, and anyone who doesn’t realize that is just subwoofer ignorant. There’s a reason Wilson uses subs with their Alexandrias and Magico uses them with their Q7s and up, and I think you obviously get that.
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