I’m expanding my all-analog system to add a proper digital front end and would like recommendations for a DAC to connect to my Wiim pro plus.
Listening Habits:
I primarily listen to LPs, but appreciate the convenience and discoverability that digital provides. I don’t have a digital music library and only stream via Tidal and Spotify. My 2-channel system does double duty as a sound system for our TV as well.
Requirements:
All-in <= $3k
Prioritizes sound quality above all else
Streaming supports Tidal Connect directly or via some other protocol
TosLink Input (for casual TV)
Personal Preferences:
When tuning components in my system, I’ve preferred ones that are more detailed/transparent rather than overly warm/harmonic. E.g. Telefunken over Amperex or Mullard. Duelund CAST over AN copper.
Realistic tone/timbre, soundstage, micro-detail, and impactful bass are important to me.
Currently under consideration:
Denafrips Pontus II 12th
Denafrips Venus II
Schiit Yggdrasil
ANK DAC 4.1x (with Duelund caps, etc)
Gustard R26
The rest of my system is as follows:
CSS 2TD-x tower speakers (neutral with some mid-bass warmth)
I’m revising my previous recommendation. Having owned a Weiss 204 and then subsequently owning an Audio Mirror Toubadour, I have to say to my ears the Audio Mirror Toubadour was a much better sounding DAC. USAM has some pre-owned models within your price range, if you haven’t already purchased one yet.
One more thing to add, for both the Weiss and the Toubadour, I was running it through a Denafrips Gaia DDC.
Vlad is very responsive as well and I’m sure you can count on continued customer support if you get one of his DACs.
Forgot to mention Benchmark. By their WEB, they seem to have tackled most if not all the known issues. Digital cliping, power supplies, great output etc.
i would concur that the pontus 2 is the sweet spot in the denafrips line, for most audiophiles with good systems
the ddc part is very dependent on how the dac is fed in terms of positive impact on sound quality
one caveat though is that i feel denafrips as a company has recently engaged in what i call ’rampant product-update-itis’ -- incessant new models/versions/variants... with very little to practically no substance to this marketing driven crapola in my experience -- this tactic unfortunately puts a stink on what i otherwise consider to be quite good quality high value gear in the dac space
I’ve gone through at least 10 dacs in the last 5 years.
For under $2k, Pontus II can’t be beat. Great resale value too.
Add a DDC, and you’re now competing with dacs up to $4k or higher.
FWIW, at least on the Pontus DAC, the choice of power cord can affect the clarity, resolution, and timing of the DAC a lot. And the most expensive power cord may not sound the best. The power cords that I've tried on the Pontus are listed below. I ended up with a $91 Supra LoRad power cord that sounded best to my ears.
Tripp-Lite Heavy Duty: $15
Audiophile AC Power Cable - WAudio 10AWG HiFi Power Cord 3.3FT : $35.99
Pangea AC-14: $44.95
Pangea AC-14 SE MkII: $79.95
Supra LoRad: $91
Shunyata Venom V14: $135
Audience F3 Forte: $150
AV Options Cryo TibiaPlus12 Power Cord: $249
Synergistic Research UEF Blue: $499
Shunyata Research Venom V10 NR: $600
Shunyata Research Delta XC: $1400 - intended for power conditioners not DAC, but my Pontus DAC doesn't seem to do well with power cords with built in noise reduction.
Since the rest of your amplification chain is ANK, it makes sense to stick with ANK. There is a lot to be said for system synergy. Companies tune or ‘voice’ their components to compliment each other.
Mixing and matching components to find this synergy is a hit and miss process.
That being said, swapping out an ANK DAC with something else might be the least impactful (compared to your other components) with respect to system synergy.
If you go with a non-ANK DAC, I’d recommend auditioning a Lampizator DAC. You should be able to find a used one within your budget.
Under 3K are the Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005 ES9038 Pro x2 DAC. It has two ES9038pro chips (one per channel), and superb audiophile grade parts that achieve very high resolution with a very large soundstage. There is a lengthy thread about the MH-DA005 on A'Gon. I purchased one after reading and have been very happy.
Do not be swayed by arrogant, "must be exotic or it is junk" posters any more than the SINAD chasers. Use your own ears in your system.
As there are clear preferences in sound from the many DACs mentioned, that kind of confirms you need to listen to your taste. "Correct " may not mask bad recordings as some euphonic distortion will, so your choice.
The Schiit Gungnir is OBE. They have the Bifrost and Yggdrasil for multibit.
I do not think RMEs are available with the AKM. They claim their ESS sounds the same. Execution seems to mean a lot more than the chip.
My high end dealer suggests the Qutest has the detail but without the issues from a chip based Delta Sigma. R2R are known for not a lot of detail, but smoother.
Tubes are now what yo want for detail, They add the distortions for that smoother midrange. I might like them, but from your description probably not.
Schiit says the 2/64 is more detailed than the original, but still in the R2R scope. For a lark, Amazon yourself a DO300 just to see if you want to go that way. You may be surprised, or not.
Technology and mass production have moved fast so this years CH-FI for $500 may stomp a two year old esoteric DAC. Your ears of course. Your brain may tell you that no way a cheep box is going to sound good in your very nice system. The brein wins every time over reality.
I recommend Metrum's Onyx DAC. It is a huge upgrade over my Teac DAC. Much better tone and sibilance control without being soft. I paid $2,500 for it new from the U.S. dealer, although you could buy it direct instead.
The sound I am getting is rich and full. And bells and similar sounds are mind blowing, like I am sitting next to the musician.
I am a long-term user of a Vinyl Source and am a recent convert to having a Digital Source in my system.
After a short period of Trying out CDP only and especially a range of Custom modified CDP's using Valves and other Valve Circuitry in the Schematic, I tried out the CDT>DAC option.
I struggled to find a attraction to the CDP and CDT>DAC combinations I was being introduced to, as they were very capable, but not able to produce a perception I was listening to something that could be a comparative source to my Vinyl Source.
A suggestion was made, and I took a Wild Punt on the idea offered.
It was made known the EE, who was instrumental in supplying the modification info the the Valve CDP's no longer did their own work on CDP's and now have their own range of Valve DAC's being produced, that are claimed to surpass their earlier work undertaken on CDP's.
It was made known a earlier generation prototype model was available, that could have the Circuit Updated and can be offered for a very reasonable monies in comparison to the latest pricing for their DAC's.
The outcome is, I received a Imported Custom Built Valve DAC, it is aesthetically not as pretty as the Individuals present offerings, at the discounted price that is not a concern.
I have been blown away by this DAC in its earliest days of usage, using CDP's as a Transport, it was very attractive in use.
When deciding to go for a dedicated CDT and ending up with the DAC being paired with a PW Memory Player, the combination become a Digital Source that was as attractive as Vinyl as a Source.
The came Tube Rolling and after discovering early 60's Siemens Tubes, this DAC, took on a new level which was almost New DAC like as the impact on the sonic and for the better.
This CDT>DAC has been travelling to events and others homes to be used on other systems, it has performed on all occasions, showing itself as more attractive option over other DAC's it has been compared against.
One system owner has been so impressed they went on their own Journey to discover a Valve Design that will be suitable for themselves.
They have purchased the CDP in the Link, which is a CDP that has more interface options than a typical CDP.
My Set Up and this CDP have been used side by side with the CDP in the Link being a standard Valve in use and there is plenty on offer from the Model in the link, it has a very attractive appeal.
The CDP in the Link now has the same early 60's Valves I am using. The end result is substantial, this is as impressive as the best Vinyl Sources I have heard in recent years. I can vouch for this as I have been demo'd the CDP used as a comparison to a £20K Vinyl Source in a system getting up close to the cost of £50K.
Take a look at the RME ADI-2 DAC FS. It excels at clarity & detail, yet isn’t overly bright or clinical. I have mine installed in my secondary system & I’m extremely happy with it. It has toslink input & is well priced at $1300. Best bag for the buck in DACS out there IMHO & I’ve never seen a negative review. There are many online stores that will let you return it without return shipping charges. It does a great job of doubling as a preamp, too if you don’t need a lot of inputs.
I completely agree, especially if you are talking about the AKM version. I thought this DAC/Pre was going to be analytical as the Benchmark sound is not my style. I couldn't have been more wrong about the RME DAC...especially for those who are looking to get rid of their preamp.
You’re welcome to try out my border patrol dac in your system for a couple weeks if you want to cover the shipping… it’s Spdif only fyi.
I’m now looking into the Bifrost… any thoughts on the “2” vs the “2/64”?
They have different chips and the 2/64 is truly balanced, which is not something I need right now.
a used “2” can be purchased pretty cheaply and upgraded to the “2/64” later with a card from Schiit.
As an owner of the current version Border Patrol SE-I dac and former owner of the new Bifrost 2/64 dac, I will say these dacs can sound quite different from each other. The Bifrost 2/64 is more precise in my system, if that’s what you like, this is what it does. The Boarder Patrol SE-I with the latest choke and cap design brings something special in a different way, particularly in an already-transparent system, fwiw.
For others,
BTW: The Tube is "not" in the signal path circuit on the BP SE-I DAC, it’s part of the power supply. Switching the tube on/off does change the sound some. Nice in either positions for different results. It’s more open sounding w/tube-power supply switched [on].
I think the question begs for a streaming function which does not leave many options. Those from Lumin and Auralic come to mind. Lumin’s software is solid a used T2 or T1 which is easier to find.
I think we can all appreciate brand synergy for both sound and aesthetics. I see you are leaning to ANK which will match your other gear.
i have had limited experiences with DACs with only two brands, Schiit and Audio Research. I started with Gungnir and moved to Yggy and heard the improvements. My other gear is ARC so then tried a DAC 8 and was definitely an improvement over the Yggy. ARC doesn’t seem to have much respect towards their DACs as I rarely see them mentioned but they have worked quite wellbin my system. I now have. CD 6 for dual purpose.
These are all easy to buy/sell used and ship so I would encourage you to try several over time snd make sure you find the one you love.
You all shouldn't rule out the BorderPatrol DAC... I have one and really enjoy it immensly ! The tube in the DAC can be switched in or out and is not in the analog circuitry Not expensive, analog sounding, built here in the U.S. and Gary Dews is great to work with.
I am not sure if DSD matters to you. If so, Schiit and ANK might not be for you. You need to down sample each time to the highest rate PCM that can be read. Also, the output impedance of the Denafrips especially from XLR is quite high. Make sure your preamp or amp could match it.
@j_andrewsI used it with Lumin U1 Mini for long enough to compare multiple times to running it as a standalone. I preferred the standalone. Sold the Lumin.
@j_andrewsThanks for the offer! I think I'll pass. Something someone said about keeping tubes out of the DAC made sense for me (a lot of other tubes in the system) and I want to stick with that. I believe "2" and "2/64" are equivalent.
You’re welcome to try out my border patrol dac in your system for a couple weeks if you want to cover the shipping… it’s Spdif only fyi.
I’m now looking into the Bifrost… any thoughts on the “2” vs the “2/64”?
They have different chips and the 2/64 is truly balanced, which is not something I need right now.
a used “2” can be purchased pretty cheaply and upgraded to the “2/64” later with a card from Schiit.
@kuhyay I used to have MoFi UltraDeck with Hana ML cartridge and Sutherland 20/20 MkII LPS phono amp. Nice table!!!
The deck I’m using is a Bricasti M3 with Network card. You can use it as a Roon endpoint or use Mconnect app to stream Tidal and Qobuz. The M3 is a very nice DAC with none of the digital nasties that come with cheaper options. Also, you will not need your Wiim Pro Plus for two reasons - 1) you can run the M3 without a streamer and 2) it will beat the Wiim and other streamers like the bottom of the line Auralic and Lumin.
There’s a good one on USAM now. Worth trying to bargain down and up your budget a but. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650006905-bricasti-m3-dac-with-network-player-card-excellent-condition/
My best purchase ever after my AKG K340 is a dac...
The french battery dac NOS TDA 1543 of Christophe Mariac...
I got it on a bid on EBAY new from the designer himself for 15 bucks.... 😊 It sells new after that near 500 bucks ...
I used it with my very detailed modified small speakers ( 100 bucks ) ... A match in heaven...
I will never need to upgrade...😊 My small speakers beat most headphone anyway and my headphone AkG K340 beat most speakers put in a living room ...
Audiophile experience for small purse does not mean a soundfield with too much compromise at all...
I wrote this for those who dont have much money... Dont believe in market publicity nor in any reviewers ... Believe in your ears...Go with your ears and learn basic acoustics to understand Sound experience...
The best 50,000 bucks is in music purchase not in gear anyway, especially not in costlier dac...
"I don’t want a hyper detailed dac… but something with a little bit more resolution"
I feel exactly the same way. A friend got the BP and, in his system, he said it was more "musical" than either the MHDT Orchid or the Bifrost 2/64; he got rid of both. I am reluctant to follow in his footsteps not only because I have tubes in other places (to "soften") but also because I want the *information* to be audible! This is not about "hyper detail" as you say, but about a very smooth and "musical" rendering that is nevertheless not hiding or "rolling off" anything. I believe that is something I have heard most evidently in the Holo May and Holo Spring DACs, but for now, I'm hearing enough of it in the Bifrost.
They have been an amazing purchase (along with the AVA gear)
re: Border Patrol….maybe “move on” is too strong. I don’t think I’ll actually sell it. I do like it, but I like experiencing new gear and the truth is that the Border Patrol dac can be a bit soft some times… despite all the things it does well, including pumping out a very natural and engaging impression … I sometimes find it a bit rolled off and diffuse. Kind of depends on other factors like what I’m playing and which other equipment is hooked up. I don’t want a hyper detailed dac… but something with a little bit more resolution and perhaps a lower output impedance would be nice to experiment with. I have been assuming I’d stay with R2R but now I’m feeling a bit more open minded on the actual conversion. I think the output stage in a dac is really the thing that is most interesting and could have the largest effect on its success in a system.
I second the recommendation for a Black Ice FX Tube DAC. I have this DAC and like it very much but it is not my primary DAC. It did very well in a blind shootout at the Arizona Audio/Video Club DAC Shootout and I have had good experience over the years with equipment designed by Jim Fosgate.
I have two other DACs - a Berkeley Audio Reference 2 MQA and an Audio Mirror Tubadour IV. I also have a Marantz KI Ruby SACD player. Before these DACs/Players I had a PSA PerfectWave MK II and a Marantz SA 8005 SACD player.
The main point I would like to make is that in my experience there just isn't a lot of difference between modern DACs in how they sound. If you do a careful A/B comparison with matched volumes you will probably find that you are hard pressed to tell one from the other. If you are after a certain "sound" a DAC probably isn't the place to find it. It's nothing like changing phono cartridges, for example. One might think that my Berkeley Audio Reference 2 would blow away the other DACs but I have to admit that the differences are very subtle. I found this unit for a very good price used and I have a collection of HDCDs which it will decode but it certainly doesn't sound 20 times better than my Black Ice. Having the Berkeley gives me the satisfaction of listening to a DAC that is considered as one of the best and I don't think I'll need to upgrade again. If I wasn't so OCD about my stereo the Black Ice would have served me very well for the rest of my days. I got the Tubadour because I wanted to try a NOS DAC to see what the hoopla is all about. It's still breaking in but it also sounds pretty darn similar to every other DAC I've had.
The reason I recommend the Black Ice is that it's well within your budget and at least you can try different tubes which gives you some ability to modify the sound. Otherwise I suggest that you select a DAC that has the features you want, a story you connect with, and gives you the best pride of ownership. Then sit back and enjoy the music.
+2 for the Pontus 2 12th. BTW, if you installed the lastest firmware, you are at the 12th level. Great detail and smoothness especially with OS and smooth filter. Adding the Iris DDC added even more detail for a USB streamer.
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