The $27,900 disappointment? Wilson Audio Watt Puppy 8 issues.

I don't recall Danny showing us the crossovers in the Wilsons.  Usually he points out the junk parts as part of his video.  

Wilson built its reputation years ago when they really had something special when compared with other speakers of the time. They do some things very well for a dynamic speaker. They also seem to ignore other very important aspects of design which back you into a corner concerning amplification. They have never been on my radar due to what I consider to be bad engineering and design decisions. 

I don't recall Danny showing us the crossovers in the Wilsons.  Usually he points out the junk parts as part of his video.  

@knotscott  There will be a part II 

Someone who thinks some Alexia sounded "live" hasn't probably heard a Meyer Bluehorn, Klipsch Jubilee or a Levinson M1.

BTW, I have a friend who drives his Wilson Alexia 2 with high end Audio Research amps and preamps. Very few systems can recreate the live event, e.g. jazz clubs, as his. He has worked hard on all aspects of his audio chain and the results are astonishing. 

@thecarpathian is your aunt on social media? Now I am intrigued. 

Danny Hates every speaker that arent his. I dont trust that guy at all. He is tryin to sell upgrade parts. Wilson is a well known high end brand. The audacity to think he can fix them is hilarious

Not entirely true, he praises speakers designed by guys who know their stuff (A.Jones, Peter Comeau, etc, no engineering flaws), but it is true that they all get budget restricted w.r.t crossover parts, etc. Even a few hundred dollars worth of crossover part ugrades will get it up a notch, but, that is all something guys in the diy space attempt anyways, without danny selling them a upgrade kit.

I know he’s a flat response chaser (which i’m not), but, i have a couple of different speakers around this Puppy price range that...i suppose he could measure it 50 different ways and still won’t be able to ’improve’ anything on it. 30k or above, i expect a speaker to not quite be "upgradeable", Puppy failed there, it seems.

In Puppy’s case, it isn’t just a flat response issue....but my main issue with Wilson generally is...at 30k or 60k, you just bought a Focal driver and threw it in a box?! I would buy a Focal instead then, a focal utopia maybe..I could just buy a focal driver and throw it in a box myself, don’t need your help there buddy. Try designing/simulating/f’abing/testing, develolping all the tooling, etc for drivers in house by yourself. Now, the price starts to add up and finds a justification.

For the flat response chasers, the Tekton designer came up with the epic response, nuff said.

"First, a loudspeaker can be designed from a viewpoint of rigid science [what this website looks to be all about] or it can be designed from a viewpoint of art and creativity. In my opinion, a great loudspeaker should have a beautiful balance of science and art. Think of what a mastering engineer could do to a song! A mastering engineer is both an artist and a scientist. Good loudspeaker design must be approached from an identical viewpoint; no different than a mastering engineer producing a track of music - I make the loudspeaker sound exactly how I want it to.

Second, to assume I cannot design and market a ’flat responding’ loudspeaker is woefully shortsighted. If I wanted to produce a linear loudspeaker (as the reviewer has turned my design into) I would have done that; my simulator does this task in under 3 seconds. The facts are most audiophiles don’t go for the frequency response and corrections the reviewer has suggested. The only linear loudspeaker models we offer are intended for professional studio engineering and they are tools for a toolbox. Changing crossover parts values to flatten the frequency response is a super simple task; my job is to get the speaker sounding right for an audiophile. The problem is most audiophiles don’t go for ’scientific sound’; to my ears, it’s analytical, sterile, forward in the midrange when turned up, and frankly not much excitement to be discerned. Shipping the Mini Lore with a MiniDSP and a preloaded file converting the Mini Lore into a scientific masterpiece is no more difficult than changing a few values on the crossover.

Anyone wanting an improved version of the Mini Lore pair as the scientific reviewer has suggested my model be changed into is free to call me and I will accommodate your request.

Tekton Design caters to the audiophile community and when two pairs of Mini Lore’s were returned in 2023 we must be doing something right with the design.

Respectfully, Eric Alexander - audio designer and owner of Tekton Design, LLC""

Who in the world spends $30k on a pair of speakers?! That’s absolutely nuts!

Isn't the obvious question why is he reviewing/modding and slagging a 13yr old iteration of the WWP? Is there really enough commercial constituency to make it worth his while? It just doesn't seem relevant.

FWIW I heard older models and was not impressed enough to buy a pair. I just heard the 50th anniversary models- and was and did.

Danny and Eric Alexander in the same post is like tag team wrestling. One will tell you that your gear is flawed and needs to be fixed, at a price, while the other sues you.

@fertguy   Deep Dive Part II just dropped, it appears...

"GR Research Upgrade failure or success with Wilson Audio"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIt2pcQvf6M

FWIW, whatever changes Danny makes to the speakers other than upgraded parts, will make it sound like something other than a WP. If that’s what the owner wants, he bought the wrong speakers in the first place.

he bought the wrong speakers in the first place.

+1 @ozzy62

There’s a difference between upgrading something you like vs trying to change the a component’s disliked sonics.  Seems foolish.  If they were targeting the latest Wilson sound on the cheap upgrades aren’t the answer

Why the anger for all this. I constantly hear audiophiles harping on the lack of negative reviews of equipment, so now we don't like negative reviews!

He's providing a service, up to his customers to determine the value of that service. And since when is marketing oneself via social media such a bad thing.

@ozzy62 

+1.

Bob

At least you guys aren't getting crucified  on another thread for simply pointing out to Terry London he screwed up the word 'artisan' with 'artesian' in one of his reviews. Also my post that had Ianus in it got deleted. That's it, I want my money back.

LOL, "crucified", grow a set.

@viridian ,

I'm terribly sorry, was that a bit too hyperbolic for you?

How about this: I wrote something and he was mean to me. I cried for hours, good thing I had my emotional support emu to comfort me.

We all can't be built all tough and macho like you...

At least you can take the soprano parts in the choir.

Gosh, clever.

Brains and brawn, you're the total package.

Wow.

What's next, gonna push me off the swings at recess?

what an unruly class!

He started it!

@mclinnguy 

 There will be a part II 

Excellent! Looking forward to it.  Thank you.

@deep_333  +1 Meyer Sound Labs Bluehorn system. 

https://meyersound.com/product/bluehorn-system/

A more recent similarly lively system was Devon Turnbull's total system presentation at the San Francisco Museum Of Modern Arts showing of The Art Of Noise, June, 2024.

I'm a sucker for a large space and horns, reminiscent of my old loft and the bands Altec A7's.     

...I remember an ad for a PA that claimed to be able to weld thin mild steel plates....
Maybe left behind in the closet marked: recycle in X decade  🙄

@mclinnguy

@knotscott There will be a part II

Part II came out yesterday. I found it shortly after seeing your reply. TY!

@coltrane1

Who in the world spends $30k on a pair of speakers?! That’s absolutely nuts!

You’d be surprised. There’s a whole world of upper tier audio gear that seems to be thriving, some of which truly outperforms what most of us have access to, but that level of sound can be surprisingly finnicky to setup and to the entire system chain. Focal, Avant Guarde, YG Acoustics, Clarysis, Enigma, Magico, MBL, Gryphon, and a slew of others.

Hey, if you don't like them, send them to me.  I'm sure I can "suffer" along with them.  *grin*

Danny better be careful. Those guys that own Wilson audio are Mormons and they are known to be involved in unfortunate accidents if you know what I mean. I can’t believe he trashed them so bad he’s barking up a tree with a very big dog at the top of it. All I would take is a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of attorneys fees for him to defend himself and GR research would be broadcasting from a dumpster somewhere in Tennessee

@grislybutter ,

She might be on social media, but I'm afraid to ask her.

FWIW, whatever changes Danny makes to the speakers other than upgraded parts, will make it sound like something other than a WP. If that’s what the owner wants, he bought the wrong speakers in the first place.

@ozzy62 

I wonder if we will ever find out if the owner will be happier with them when he gets them back. That is the only part that matters. If someone has the patience to scour the comments and post that we all would appreciate it! 

Isn't the obvious question why is he reviewing/modding and slagging a 13yr old iteration of the WWP?

You need to actually pay attention.  NOT a review.  Danny did not select the speakers, an owner sent in unhappy with the Wilsons.

Second video pointed out how bad individual drivers measured and the potted crossover.  Danny continually reveals the poor design and build quality of many speakers, all sent to him.

It's been a long time since I contributed to a forum thread here on Audiogon, but this is a topic I have direct experience with.

Many people make comments on issues they have no experience with. Opinions are great, but when contributing to a thread - wouldn't identifying what kind of direct experience you have with the equipment help readers?  

I owned a pair of Watt Puppies, then Sasha's and then back to Watt Puppies. I owned them for more than 20 years. Here's my direct experience.

Who spends the expense on Wilson speakers? Good question. While I visited my audiophile retailer (Woodbridge Stereo - a long time ago), when I first saw what I thought was the odd, funny looking speakers and commended such about them - my friend and salesmen responded in a very kind way "those speakers would humble you."

It wasn't until I coincidently heard them at a much later time, that I was dumfounded by them. They completely disappeared - all I heard was performers spaced in the room, on a stage in front of me. Everything was amazingly lifelike. It was at that point that I knew one day I would have them (even though they were way out of my budget!).

I eventually worked out a way to get them (another story - and thank you Woodbridge Stereo!). I paired them with a Pass XA30.5 amplifier - and they sounded great. The system weakness was tight bass - but I gave this up because everything else was amazing (I eventually upgraded to a pair of Pass XA-200.5's and enjoy music!).

So, to answer a few of the questions I saw (and no, I didn't read this entire thread):

- After hearing them, I couldn't enjoy music without my pair of Wilson speakers. At least not like I enjoy music now.

- You need a great amplifier (and front end) to drive them. That doesn't mean you need an expensive amplifier.

I enjoy my system because it does what I want it to do - that is, create the illusion of live music. We each should enjoy our system - it should do what we want it to do.

A safe, healthy and happy 2025 year to everyone :-)

Many speakers priced in this range and above get carried by the front end electronics (no miracle of the speaker).

There is a caliber of front end electronics (i have a few ) that can be connected to any turd of a speaker and they can still salvage the situation...paint over deficiencies/make it sound good. Above a certain threshold for competent speaker engineering, it is the electronics that caused the magic.

To determine if it is really some miracle of the speaker, you would connect the same to very modest electronics as well and check how it does.

It wasn't until I coincidently heard them at a much later time, that I was dumfounded by them. They completely disappeared - all I heard was performers spaced in the room, on a stage in front of me. Everything was amazingly lifelike. It was at that point that I knew one day I would have them (even though they were way out of my budget!).

If Danny (GR Research) just presented his opinions of the questionable design decisions Wilson made with the Watt Puppy 8, I would likely not pay attention.  But using before and after measurement graphs he proved why it's not a good idea to connect the 2 woofers in parallel due to the challenging 2.4 ohm load.  He also proved that Wilson's mounting of the tweeter was causing excessive diffraction and figured out a simple yet effective way to use the grill to create a sort of tweeter waveguide to reduce the diffraction. 

If you believe measurements have little to do with a speaker's SQ, that's a different issue.  It would be interesting to hear from the owner of the speakers once he got them back from Danny.

I'm a fan of Danny. Yes, he criticizes things he thinks are wrong. He has decades designing speakers and crossovers. He has mostly been behind the scenes working for other brands.  He champions DIY as a means to achieve high performance with minimized cost. 

The folks that say he is a "salesman" need to understand the time and energy he spends with these upgrades. Yes, he sells upgrade "kits" to folks that want to improve the performance of their speakers, but he doesn't select the speakers to upgrade. Dissatisfied owners do. He does the design work for free, and is only compensated for his time with the profit he makes on these kits. How much do you think his time was worth upgrading these Wilson's? He knows what makes a speaker sound good. He also knows how to identify design choices that make for compromised sound. He sells very modestly priced speaker kits that punch way above their price point. I built the NX-Tremes. They are sublime. Incredible at the price point, and I had fun building them. Win-win.

Don't bash Danny until you look at his entire body of work. He is a huge asset to the DIY community. 

Watt-Puppy 8s?   Really?  These speakers are 20-30 years old.  They haven't used that tweeter since then.  Does this guy actually listen to the speakers?  He spends the entire video talking about measurements. 

I owned the Watt-Puppy 7s and loved them.  Auditioned the big B&W N800s, and a number of other more expensive brands at the time. On the same system at a big NY/Phila area dealer.  Never liked the 8s as well.  Since, owned Sashas, Yvettes, and Sasha DAWs... all great.  Wilson technology, as others, has moved on.  Better drivers, cabinets and crossovers.  Darryl Wilson vs. Dave Wilson.  Times, cables, speakers, amplification and sources are way better today.  The current Watt-Puppy is a remarkable little speaker.  This old, dog eared thing should be retired.

His business is to sell crossovers....so he criticizes speaker manufacturers choices to sell "upgraded" crossovers.

Not sure how Danny is a Wilson competitor? Who cross shops Wilson with a GR Research kit speaker? 

Danny does these mod videos for education and entertainment....hoping you buy his GLS Encore kit...and then keep buying from him...he's not hiding the ball, he has said this.

This is an industry where designers/engineers are secretive and here we have one of the best ones openly sharing and giving an unfiltered opinion...basically unicorn content.  

The idea that a 3 dB variation in response  is "choppy"' is simply ridiculous. Go look at any speaker review with measurements and even the best have variations of at least that much and many have far greater. 

chasing a flatter response than this with a speaker is a fool's errand.

As any speaker designer knows, a really flat speaker sounds terrible.

As always, GR is right. Another "audiophile" company sells poorly engineered, but "audiophile" piece of nice furniture.

@coppy777 - it is way cheaper to buy an EQ or Dirac-capable DAC than to EQ room by changing speakers.

A friend just loaned me his 19” Sony Trinitron.

I plugged it in and the Sony flickered to life. I don’t know why everyone loves these. The screen is small. Its dim (4,5 bits) It’s very heavy. The color range looks compressed and lacks accuracy. And the much lauded black level measures a dark grey.

The image was fuzzy and lacked clarity but I tried a couple of mods and yield significant improvement ( I moved the antenna around and my sitting position back 17’). I highly recommend them.
 

Then for a comparison I put it beside my Samsung QN 90D 85”.Wow . The Samsung was clearly better in every way- there was no comparison. 
 

The Sony new is $3,226 ($550 1975 dollars today), Why would anyone buy or bother to review one of these?

In the follow up video, wearing that shirt, I’m beginning to think Danny and my aunt are the same person...🤔

Here's the best audiophile test track for GR Research speakers and GR upgraded speakers. It is one of the greatest songs ever written. Don't listen to anything else unworthy.

I'm Too Sexy (Original Mix - 2006 Version)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ

In the follow up video, wearing that shirt, I’m beginning to think Danny and my aunt are the same person...🤔

Danny doesn't listen to speakers to form an opinion, he measures therm.  Big difference.

Big difference indeed. Forming an opinion from a measurement is very foolish.