Who positions their speakers straight ahead (zero tow in) and why.

I've owned three pair of Vandersteens and believe Richard recommended straight ahead.  But he also recommended some distance from sidewalls which is addressed by others here.  

Some other speakers I've owned worked best  aimed just behind my head.

So another vote for "depends on  the design of the speaker and room set up".

Sometimes getting goofy pays off. It's what I like about this hobby.

Anyone else here experimented with asymmetric speaker toe-in?

@bolong

Well, I am. My room is large but asymmetrical, so I thought it was worth trying. I am far from done, but at this point my left speaker crosses ~2 ft in front of my head while my right speaker crosses approx 1 ft behind my head. They’re about 15 ft away from the front wall. I would say this is the best they’ve sounded so far.

I have Magnepan 3.7i speakers.  I have experimented with many different degrees of toe in.  I have found for my room that having the tweeter ribbon on the inside and just a few degrees of toe in works for me.   The speakers disappear and have an expansive soundstage.  Huge width and depth.    When I oriented the speakers with the tweeter ribbon on the outside the center fill went to pot!  As with all things YMMV!

My Cornwall 4’s are set up in such a way that they can be very accurately positioned especially as to complimentary angling. One listening night recently I was startled to hear a somewhat different and dare I say superior sound emanating from them. I wondered if some of my recent tweaks had suddenly "broken in" fully. It wasn’t until a few days later that I realized our Friday house maid had moved one of the speakers while cleaning. It’s very easy to move them angularly though they remain rooted to the floor at their mirrored pivot points. My listening/living room has some unfortunate furniture placements that are essentially non-adjustable. The speaker that was accidentally toed out more was dealing with an upright piano on its sidewall. That speaker had been accidentally turned outwards a bit towards the offending piano. The result was a slightly airier sound presentation that was very pleasing and a somewhat wider soundstage.

Anyone else here experimented with asymmetric speaker toe-in?

Sorry my photos will not stay in post

Totally Sub Optimal Room and clutter

I just moved into a new location and my listening room is very small and we are still moving in. Just got my system setup with no goal other than cheeking out that everything survived the move

The sound stage is fantastic and elevated, width is past speakers and sound is great.  I an blown away how good the sound in such a mess . Looking forward to de cluttering the room - this is totally a Near Field listening position.

I can't immediately which ones, but there are speakers on the market with rising high frequencies, that are too bright when toed in, but sound great when toed out. 

@simonmoon With such speakers, to avoid side wall reflections which contribute to harshness, the simple solution is to toe-in the speaker so much the tweeters cross in front of the listening position.

 

Most dudes who fire it forward tend to have a hot tweeter.

Brilliant!
 

i put in straight cause it looks good that way.  i never played with tow in.  

@akg_ca 

Isn’t dispersion of speakers ‘and’where the heck all your furniture is in a room incredibly important? Most people don’t sit in rooms with a single chair and only their audio system. They have other furniture and this affects things.

The design included a few comments above is a nice schematic but it fails to account for furniture but it is helpful

I can't immediately which ones, but there are speakers on the market with rising high frequencies, that are too bright when toed in, but sound great when toed out. 

The slight loss of high frequencies due to horizontal off axis response, compensates perfectly.

It depends on a few things, but I have found that speaker placement is mostly speaker dependent. I had a pair of KEF Reference 5 speakers that sounded their best when almost facing straight forward and 3’-4’ from the front wall. The Sonus Farber speakers I have now sound best when aimed at my shoulders and 3’ from the front wall.

I've been experimenting with  speaker position including toe in. I was listening to a David Crosby cut off "if I could only remember my name", and heard wonderful instrument placement, artificial or otherwise. I went back to what had been my original listening position that had provided a great sound stage earlier but found when I listened to the same song,  what was a fairly precise location had totally evaporated and it was merely a piano coming from somewhere. I have tape on the floor so I put it back where it was. The total distance that I rotated the speaker was less than half an inch.

I remember when I for Tritons, Sandy Gross recommended having them as far apart as possible and toed in pretty severely. I don't even recall if I ever tried it.

I’m with @akg_ca and others here. There’s no correct answer for every situation. I use a lot of toe-in with my current room, which is played long ways using horn speakers. One issue I just experimented with addressing is opposite side reflections, as shown by line "B" in @akg_ca ’s drawing. My side walls are about 10 feet from my listening position, so there’s an extra 20 foot path length to create a decent delay. But, I wondered what would happen if I used angled panels to redirect that opposite wall bounce away from my listening position. The result is very interesting, and overall quite good in terms of imaging enhancement. So even when fairly significantly delayed, cross reflections can be detrimental to imaging, which could be a reason someone might not want to toe in their speakers in some rooms.

One thing that I found enlightening from this experiment is that my old idea of only worrying about reflections that are inside the "image shift" window is not adequate. There’s more to imaging than just the left to right positioning of items in the sound field. By controlling that opposite side reflection that’s outside the image shift time window, according to the chart I’m looking at, a lot more dimensionality and immersive effect has been preserved. On some electronic music it’s pretty much a full surround experience with just two channels.

It’s entirely an alchemy dependent on the OEM speaker brand influences in constant tension with the dimensions/design/ resulting warts of the listening room.

There is no “one-size-fits-all” general rule to follow because of varying brand speaker designs and performance capabilities. For example, the dispersion of a ribbon tweeter vs. A soft dome tweeter, vs. Concentric centred with a woofer design may all be different. Follow your OEM speaker manual for first guidance.

For the bespoke listening room factors portion in the equation, there are significant points of first reflection that are complemented with secondary ones, all three of which need to be identified and tamed if necessary.

TAKEAWAY:

There is no substitute for hands-on experimentation..

To toe in or not to toe in..that is the question.  Fortunately, the answer can be found with a little experimentation and absolutely no financial cost.  Trust your ears and enjoy your system. 

As others have noted, every experience is different. Here is mine for what it is worth:

- room is semi anechoic: rock wool covers the walls (6”) and ceiling (14”), with fire resistant burlap covering that

- rugs cover most of the floor

- room has a gable roof, 8ft at the peak, 3 ft at the walls, with a large gable opening to the right.

- the distance behind, to the right and to the left of the speakers is - roughly - equal to the distance between the speakers

- the speakers are not toed in

- the speakers are Altec Lansing 604Cs in homemade cabinets that were made to Altec specifications. They are co-axial.

- I sit about 10 feet in front of the speakers.

This gives me a wide and deep soundstage with solid imagery. On most records, the speakers disappear. In many records, the sound is holographically surround.

See theaudioatticvinylsundays.com about page for more. 

My speakers are big ADS 910's, in the cradle stand for up/down adjustments.

My small room is 12'2" x 15'9" with 9' ceiling.

I have looked at every speaker position website and find Cardas most helpful.

If you are familiar with the ADS 910, both speakers tweeters are on the right side of the cabinet with the mid beneath and to the left, and two bass also staggered toward the left.

None of them are in the center midline or directly beneath one another.

Because they are asymmetrical, an accurate toe-in for each, or straight ahead position, or ideal distance from side wall in such a small room has been impossible to calculate.

My solution has been to stow the masking tape, slide rule, level, weighted strings and tape measures and near field listen with my chair about 3-1/2' in front.  The speakers are toed in but unequally because of their size in a too narrow room.

Looks very dumb but the sound is satisfactory.

For me toe in or straight ahead is everything...and nothing.

Mine are actually toed up since otherwise tweeters are too low

And nobody commented on Wilsons.  They are usually positioned with generous toe in but... often spaced apart more and so closer to the sidewalls.  Or they can be closer together with less toe in.  Never my choice.  And, as someone has said, about four feet out from the wall behind to give sensational depth. 

I ended up with my Magnepan LRS+ pointed straight ahead after trying many other positions..

Think of speakers as backwards microphones, which they are, you would always want to point the microphones exactly at the thing you want to record because the mic is designed to be most accurate on axis. Off axis coloration in microphones is very important and the thing that separates good and poor sounding mics same with speakers they sound most accurate exactly on axis. 
So
Point your speakers at your ears the left speaker at your left ear and the right speaker at your right ear. The off axis coloration of speakers is best dealt with by room acoustics. Thinking of speakers as reverse microphones makes many things in acoustics obvious. 

+1 @Locknow

+1 @Atmasphere

Equilateral triangle concept is great, however try this ratio:  distance between tweeters 1.2 times the distance from each tweeter to the ear in listening position.  I love big soundstage and getting the speakers as wide as possible (certain designs I.e. D’Appolito like my big Duntech Sovereigns lend themselves even better to this however I’ve found it fairly replicable across different designs).  
 

Ralph’s point about sidewall reflections also an excellent contribution- coming from a guy that has forgotten more about audio then most of us will ever learn :-)

Experimentation is key and often that’s the fun part!

I have a pair of vintage Polk SDA 1C's, and I position them with zero toe-in because the manual recommends it. I think it's also proper given the interconnect cable for the extra stereo spread feature.

To many variables to consider on this subject.  Your ears must be the judge.  Sometimes, if your loudspeakers are too far apart - some small toe-in will help bring the center image into focus. This is a simple - no cost variable that we all face with box loudspeakers.

I have Vandersteen 5A's......I have them 1/2 way between straight on and facing me when listening.   I experimented years ago ....I presume that my final setup is correct....the speakers are way too heavy to move.

Reference 3a decapo i has a Deapollito design where the tweeters in this two way design are offset to the left and right of the woofer.This means that time allign correction/ image is best when straight ahead.I tried toeing in slightly and it collapsed the width of the image so I keep them straight on as recommended.

In big rooms yes, in small rooms you’d be listening mostly to side wall reflections. 

In both cases I ended up with tweeters on the inside and zero toe in. I like the more immersive soundstage I get with zero toe in. I sacrifice a little of the lock in for the center image.

This can work fine with some speakers if there's no side walls. Side walls cause early reflections which are interpreted by the ear as harshness. If the reflection is long (+10ms) then the ear can interpret the reflection as echo location information which can make the sound stage image more palpable.

So in a smaller room where the speakers are near walls you'll want to toe in to reduce side wall reflections- that will make the system more relaxed. If this makes the tweeter too bright, you might have to toe in more so the speakers 'cross' in front of you rather than at the listening position.

All the speakers I have had sounded pretty much similar enough whether angled or not and long ago I became accustomed to keeping speakers firing straight ahead.  Any differences seemed too small to get excited about.  My rooms have typically been under 30 sq. m. which may make a difference.

Some speakers do sound different when placed at certain distances apart left to right and at certain heights.  Often times, you get a preferred sound not following the manufacturer's recommended placement height.  So, it can vary by inches or more.  A slight toe-in might change SQ, imaging, etc., a bit but I do not usually like speakers that drastically change tonality, etc if one changes listening axis.

I also seem to respond to wide dispersion over narrow in which my understanding is that narrow requires toe-in to widen the sweet spot while wide dispersion does not to a appreciable degree.

As to appearance, I like the symmetry of forward facing speakers I suppose.  As a further sacrilege in this hobby...I listen with the grills on.  Some grills are designed to get the targeted sound while others may impede it.

My new Audels I use firing straight ahead.  Seems fine, not perfect but even angled they do not focus as tightly as some but I have become accustomed to it.  Was also stated in a review these seemed like that but they have other attributes I really like.  Also, they respond better placed further apart but this may be due to the triangle I form from listening position,  As with many, If I sit equi-distant from each or move somewhat towards them I get a better performance, at least in more body. 

Sitting further away from how the speakers are placed apart affects the SQ slightly.  That's almost the case for many I have tried.  I also notice a slight change along the vertical so speakers could also sound a bit different placed lower or even higher regarding tweeter to ear level.  Perhaps a bit smoother as the tweeter rises from 7K Hz on up.  So its a bit tilted towards the highs, like many, but as I age that tilt seems more moderate.  I think my hearing is affected at 11K Hz now and slowly descending.

Also, probably getting unwanted diffraction, etc., leaving the grills on but they work well enough where I am generally happy with the results.  I notice more improvement over my Dali Opticon 1s although I really like those as well.

While my system isn't anywhere near high end you typically find in this forum, it works well enough together as to tone, resolution, etc., at least at my listening SPLs.  Audel Magika II with a Topping d70s and a Van Alstine CA-1.

Not bad for the budget and didn't pay full retail.  Ideally, while there are a few other speakers I would like to hear, have a better dac and perhaps an integrated/amps utilizing the new GaN technology for size, weight and heat considerations, along with its purported more tubey sound with more depth while retaining detail and resolution...I could easily get on with what I have now.  

My speakers are, LaScala's ll base bins 9.5' centered slightly towed in & 6'' of the rear wall, pointing just to the left of my seating. A Altec 311-60 sitting on top of a granite slab with a little more direction towards my ears, sitting 10' back. I just added a Fostex 925a this week & still finding the sweet spot. Man that tweeter made everything blend a whole lot sweeter in my setup.

Now I'm in the market for a waveguide for the Fostec.

Yeah, @immatthewj ....the second is generally due to 'overappreciation' of what's queued up and toe-whatever is the least concern in mind.... ;)

However, since it was one of my diy's, the repair shop is very conveniently located...it's the guy at the bench one can issues with, but friendly most of the time....*L*

Have a good weekend, J 

Is either REALLLY BRIGHT or on the verge of cooking it’s voice coil.....

@asvjerry , I am thinking it is the first, as I cannot see toe in mitigating the second.  Thank you for helping me out with that--"hot tweeter" was one (of many) I was not familiar with.

I do not for two reasons-

1) I like a big i-max like sound stage and space my speakers wide a'la Audio Note and then aim them inward to fill in the sound stage.  

2) My current speakers are a bit softer sounding and like to be aimed so you can see some of the inside cabinet walls.  

I have done it in the past with a more narrow spacing and speakers that sounded best with no toe in.- e.g. a wide dispersion point source speaker.  

I have heard it done w1th success at dealers and shows- mainly when:

1) Narrow room 

2) Speakers sound best with zero toe angle in terms of frequency balance, sound stage and imaging.  Not all speakers do.  

About two years go I made an angling and placement jig for my Cornwall 4’s. The jig is screwed to both the wooden floor and to the plinths of the Cornwalls with  small hinges. The speakers are always the same in relation to the back wall since the pivot points are fixed and identical. By measuring the distance between the back walls and the leading speaker edge which can be swung to and fro both speakers can be infinitely angled and perfectly and repeatedly plane-matched in unison to the room without any fuss at all. The jig also allows the distance between the speakers to be easily adjusted without affecting the angles.

This precise and easily adjusted set up was a revelation as to the subtleties of speaker placement. As little as one degree of adjustment can be indubitably heard.

@immatthewj ...a ’hot tweeter’, hmmmm.....

Is either REALLLY BRIGHT or on the verge of cooking it’s voice coil.....

The first is easy to cure, eq, xover...

The second?
What do you smell?

Been there, did just that, you will get p*ssed....

Not the 1st, certainly not the last by anything I've read here at some time or 'nother... ;)  How much to fix?

🤷‍♂️ 

(I can be a clueless as the next...)

The nice part of an omni is that toe-in or out is irrelevant.
Location and room shape with it's layout, with the clutter within it becomes more important with regard to how far away one chooses as their sweet seat.

Nearfield becomes indulgent, but nothing in between except a single floor sub and the wall-mounted flat screen.

Fun on a desktop without having to wear 'phones.....

A/B or D don't matter, haven't trialed  a straight-up A, but I'll get round 2it... ;)

I have three pairs of speakers in different rooms, and none are toed-in.  One pair is my Apogee Duetta IIs, which I don't think anyone toes in.  The others are conventional floor-standing box speakers, mid-level models by Paradigm and PSB that I use for background music, but sound fine with no toe-in.

IIRC, when I had Maggie IIIs in my main listening room, I toed those in.

My Infinity RS-II were toed in towards my ears.

Reading this thread, I thought why not point them straight (no toe-in) and see what happens?

To my surprise, the soundstage improved quite a bit, though precision and immediacy seem to have been dialed back a bit.

The sweet spot may well be somewhere in between then. I'll experiment with that but I'll let things settle for a few days first.

Crites speakers are wide.  It looks like more toe in than I really have. They are pointed at me intersecting behind my head.  Wall to Wall sound stage with good depth.

The toe-in angle can also be used to tone down brightness and correct the imbalance of two-channel sound caused by, for example, asymmetrical sides.

@tomic601 Truth. It's as simple as that. See what you prefer. It varies by speaker, room size, and seating position.  

Experiment…it’s free….

MBL owners like my friend omni directional drivers.

Avalon Acoustics Eidolons, 6’4” from front wall, 1/4” toe in. 
I’m guessing the why, is why Avalon could give a shhitt about being reviewed. Then again I’m just a hack audiophile musician.

My wife was in radio and when her friends visit they ask, why are those speakers in the middle of the room? She drops the tonearm on an LP, then come the requests.

My Yamaha NS-5000's fire straight ahead 0 degrees toe. Tweeters/midranges are inboard. My listening distance is 13 feet with the speakers 8 feet apart 2 feet from the rear wall.

Same with my Tekton OB Sigmas in the bedroom but for a slightly smaller triangle with them 3 feet off the back wall for the open baffle effect. 

I have Apogee Duetta Sigs...they are set straight forward as Apogee suggested. I've tried some toe in, but it didn't produce better sound quality.

@lingraves just a little toe.  Youll hear 3 locations at first.  Left, center, right, until you get it right, then it will all come together as a continuous image