why do so many discussions turn contentious?

Dr. Johnson, quoted above, had it right. Discord happens because all human activities are managed by fallible humans -- beings described in all literature as often cranky, forgetful, envious, stubborn, spiteful, petty, boastful, vengeful . . .  excepting only those few Almargs with never a harsh word, never a personal mission or grievance, ever eager to listen/read, slow to speak/write. But their kind are rare in here -- because "here" is a forum of ENTHUSIASTS! The kind of folk who say "Nortons and Indians and Greavses won't do!" Enthusiasts are ENTHUSIASTIC!. Those tubes suck! A pox on Mark Levinson! And so forth ad infinitum. And yet, I learn from this stuff. Even the snarkiness can be pretty damned amusing. So let enthusiasts be enthusiasts, lean back and watch the parade, don't blame humans for their natural human frailties, never lose your sense of humor, and be willing to laugh at yourself when necessary.

@hickamore 1952 Vincent Black Lightning


brilliant use of the Lyric dude

my best to you

jim

Humans have always been opinionated, I'd suggest opinion may be becoming an obsolete descriptor as it pertains to ideas. New modes of information technology has inculcated self belief in the masses of expert status in whatever field they choose. An idea pops in your head, you find information to support it (seems humans prefer confirmation bias), easy and intentional to ignore information refuting or questioning it, ever more information supporting original idea, repeat ad nauseam. You now have created a believer, belief is the same as objective truth to the believer. Some of the arguments on this forum illustrate believers exist here. I'm not sure we'll ever return to mass acceptance that one's truth is subjective in nature. My take is we are in ascendent phase of confusing ideas with belief, we'll be seeing ever more overt and ugly attacks on each other into future.

Can't we play nice, share OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS, realizing that they often are subjective and biased.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Speakers only
If the opinions were based on observable true facts, I;'d not take issues with many of the comments about speakers here.
There is objectivity in speakers performance.
The Reference is the new high tech wide bands.
Others here just refuse out of stubborness and resistance to my unbiased,  objective testings and validations in real time.
There is sucha  thing as objective true speaker reference point.
Yet others want to argue the isue w/o even attempting to undersatnd my case.
Why is this??
Just accpt there is something outside your  experience. Even if you don't agree, just accept my findings might possible be true. 
This would mean you've been living ina  lie.
No reason to argue, 
Just present facts and ideas that confront and challenge my beliefs.
This is where folks feel offended, when they can't mount a  argument that will stand up to my proof of the pudding. 

Sorry all speakers can not be equal.
There is no such thing as personal preference.
Some speakers have serious flaws and should be pointed out as flawed,
Wilson, vandersteen, Thiel, all flawed.
Sonus faber, flawed,
magnepan
Flawed = handicaped.
= Not high fidelity. 
= Not worth the purchase.

When you act like a jerk, you’re going to get blowback. Then you think of yourself as a victim, and then poor Tammy sometimes has to get involved. I feel bad for and appreciate her and the audiogon team.

mikelavigne1,718 posts09-18-2021 12:51pmfrequent posters here bring their baggage and agenda’s with them, which is the opposite of seeking knowledge or good intensions.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exactly
Its been my lifelong dream to find the ideal if not near perfect speaker.
Now that I have made this lucky by chance discovery,,, folks here wish to trash my research.

All the bashers have to do is challenge my ideas and findings with some of their ideas built up over the decades.

Instead they stoop to snides and jokes, lacking the skills to confront me with solid evidence that my beliefs are off base.

We seek knowledge of what maks a  speaker a  Definitive Voice for our musis, a  Reference Speaker that others have to be compared next to.

I believe speakers area  science and thus objective, and much less subjective.
That is to say, distortion, coloration is real and results in listeners fatigue.
Something we all wish to avoid in out systems. 

Speakers are a  science and should be approach  via testing and experiementations. 
Results are valid proofs one design is superior to others.

I think it’s because many of these (mostly) guys have a lot of money/time/effort invested in the hobby, and it has become a significant part of their self-identity. Different ideas threaten that investment and identity, so they lash-out in defense (fear) or offense (pride). We (myself included) should all remember to, "Fear nothing and respect everything.", as it would likely result in an online environment reading less like tabloid drama, and more like helpful support.

While this posts focuses on the negative aspects of this forum which I admit are many, the overall benefits it can provide greatly outweigh all the weird, random vile stuff inserted.

Here is my example @jjss49 system photo shows a DAC I'm really interested in.  His response was to check his posts when I asked him about it.  Checking his posts he actually talks about my current DAC.  @jss49 is a goldmine and all I have to do is click his name and read his posts.

Here is a person who understands the hobby and has direct knowledge about the questions that I'm interested in.  Where else can someone get that hands on experience regarding HIFI regarding my specific questions and maybe if I haven't alienated him be able to  provide even more detail upon request.

So if for no other reason than your own benefit turn down the rancor as the person you just flamed may be the person that could actually help you the most.

“ only my Mama loves me and she could be jive’n too “


BB King.

@mozartfan talks a good game on objective measures. Please provide 4 for your “ reference “ wideband system; On axis frequency response, Impulse response, waterfall plot, and the laser scan of the driver showing breakup modes. A mere $500 for the latter in Germany. Giving you a pass on phase angle and impedance vs. frequency.

I like how this post is about admonishing contentious behavior and a few people already have fallen in to it. Outstanding. 

Simple solution to this problem, folks...Ban those who can't play well with others. It's called responsible site moderating.

Needed post. Thanks.
Lonely old men playing in a free sandbox with no timeout chair.
I believe in moderation, not by the mods, but by one's inner morals and sense of decency.
The post referring to orange monster goes a long way in explaining what is transpiring. 
Also post referring to threats to one's significant investments is also spot on.
And envy and insecurity explains much of the nastiness. Let's all do better. 

Well he did say “ grab em by the morals “…..

mwatsme,

I think you nailed it:

"I think it’s because many of these (mostly) guys have a lot of money/time/effort invested in the hobby, and it has become a significant part of their self-identity. Different ideas threaten that investment and identity, so they lash-out in defense (fear) or offense (pride). We (myself included) should all remember to, "Fear nothing and respect everything.", as it would likely result in an online environment reading less like tabloid drama, and more like helpful support."

Lots of good points. Let’s all now agree that the reasons may be many, but we can and need to do better. Play nice and be respectful!

@whart 

Getting old, but in the process, seem to have less and less to get angry about, at least as relates to the topics relevant to this forum.

+1, same here.

Nothing much to add to this discussion except maybe we should consider the consequences of bad behavior on these forums that reaches the level where new members and potential members decide not to participate.
We are what we tolerate.

This thread is good for right now, people are paying attention to it today. But most will move on to the next subject tomorrow. That's the current level of attention nowadays. I do hope it works long term but I wouldn't count on it. Just ignore the trolls!

@mitch2 - fair point. I took a break for a year or so from this forum b/c I found the signal to noise ratio deteriorated.
But what are my options, other than reporting what I consider to be an obnoxious post? I don't usually do that for several reasons. I see threads that are larded with political discussions and do just ignore them. 
Other than participating in good faith and encouraging same, what else can one do? I don't run this board, and think part of it really does have to do with the lack of moderation (with apologies to Tammy who has enough to do).
Beyond that, I think you are right, though, it isn't just what one tolerates, but if the rules aren't applied people are pretty quick to cross the line. Plus, what I may find offensive or stupid may be just peachy to others-- thus, I begin to question why I'm the one still here. (No, I'm not trying to suggest I'm leaving-- if I do it will be without fanfare--).

No, because you always get the conceited clown who feels it’s his duty to insult those who do not fall in step with his “sensibilities”. 

You always get the technically informed members who feels it's their duty not to let the "snake oil, voodoo" products run unchecked on these forums, that are making a fortune for their shyster manufacturers, that never come on here to protect their products when called out!

Self-regulation would be nice, where participants communicate theIr opinions respectively and accept that not everybody is going to share the same viewpoint.

“You always get the technically informed members …”

The ignorant always consider themselves as “technically informed”.

“who feels it’s their duty “

Nobody’s have a tremendous need of an outlet where they can pretend to be a “somebody”, deluding themselves that what they have to say has value to others, and that we actually are interested in their opinions. 

Self-regulation would be nice,

Won’t happen, too many here are technically inept and on the "snake oil" shyster’s payroll in one way or another.

Cheers George

No no no!! that's the new word for being a fuser  "Pathetic"😵

Apropos the "technically informed," I think the key is exposure. You have to have seat time; all the engineering including audio or circuit design knowledge in the world will not translate fully into what you hear in a given system. If it is good, you want to know why. If it isn’t, same question. I think the value of having a lot of input from users who have spent time with equipment, given their stated controls, may be more valuable than measurements or the theoretical opinion of someone knowledgeable in the art but at a remove.
That is largely the value of this forum as far as I am concerned. (There is also troubleshooting, not really limiting what value there may be to others).
This place isn’t necessarily where one goes for deep on music, although there are a couple of long running threads and the occasional post; instead, it’s mostly gear centric, given the nature of the business to which it is attached. (kinda obvious).

Apart from known synergies with commonly used (don’t read: cheap) equipment, there are a lot of questions lurking in the interaction among components, something that seems to be addressed almost by happenstance.
I’m actually glad for it, because from my vantage point, I have yet to see a "whole picture" (holistic) philosophy in home audio that is satisfying to all. And if we are spending time here to learn and improve the reproduction quality of an audio system, that time ought to be well-spent.
I guess point 1 is that sometimes, it isn’t solely the province of the engineers, though they are vitally necessary and 2, the real key is to hear stuff in the wild, put in place some controls if you are considering outlaying real money (whatever that is for you) toward a component, and have some experience with the limits of what a good reproduction system is capable of, before signing off on a chosen direction.
I’ve found that choices made a long the way often dictate other choices toward a certain end result. Perhaps a different way of saying "everything matters," but to me, each component has some coloration or character that you are matching with other things to result in the overall sonic outcome from the system. Those choices may pre-determine (depending on your objective) the next step in many cases. (Apart from wholesale changes to entire systems, which are costly, at least at the higher end of the scale). It’s impossible to speak about this in the abstract, but it is the area where I think the forum has the most value. (to me)

why do so many discussions turn contentious?

Here it is seeing some can’t see it.
I believe people are just getting sick of those "shysters" that are making big money with "very dubious" cheap products aimed at buyers that can’t tell the difference (the gullible) that fester here, on tv, in the press, it’s everywhere and it’s growing bigger and bigger. (open your eyes)

Can’t we play nice, share OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS, realizing that they often are subjective and biased.
"if you dont have anything nice to say, say nothing"? If you wish to disagree, do it in a constructive and mature fashion, no need for "argument ad hominem"...

Your talking about a perfect world, where the shysters wouldn’t arc up when asked for proof or were given proof that their products are just designed to make them the max profit from the least outlay from the gullible they sell to.

This is turning into quite the soap opera with some over the top ham vying for the spotlight. 

....I can see it now, streaming to the world....*expansive gestures*

AGgravation Row

"....tomics' at the sweet spot, waitin' for the needle drop

'noise sees the screen's 'hot', thinkin' "WTH is wrought!?"....."

Stronger soap....deter gent...;) 

...there you go....*s*

I joined a forum devoted to my other hobby several years ago. I’ve seen some pretty passionate debates there, but the site is closely moderated, and personal attacks, hostility, or pushing political agendas will quickly result in a suspended account or outright banning.

When I started building my system and joined this site, I realized what a great job they do over there at keeping the environment productive, positive, and conducive to shared enthusiasm.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve gotten some great input from some of the members here, but the toxic behavior I’ve seen in certain threads is mortifying, and leads me to post less than I might otherwise.

There better on line sites, but there are also worse, as far as behavior.  It is reflective of society as a whole.  I remember being horrified when the Jerry Springer show was in its heyday.  There are now several generations who have been raised thinking that standard of behavior is the norm.  Couple that with the rise of the Internet, with its penchant for turning up the temperature at its anonymity.  Then, this site caters to males, and the tendency to compare expensive possessions as a way of validating our masculinity.

+1 nonoise
         "This is turning into quite the soap opera with some over the top ham vying for the spotlight."

again, many valid points, how about...enough psychology, rhetoric, etc...this is not a contest to see who wins with the best answer, no more than this site is a contest to see who has the best, the most expensive or is the smartest.....let's all now end this and simply pledge to play nice, be respectful, remember the level of subjectivity of our hobby and  differing tastes. IF you wish to disagree, write like you were chatting face-to-face with a colleague and being polite.... 

As we know, this thread is:
"why do so many discussions turn contentious?"
Here’s an entire post from our friend @georgehifi:

georgehifiNo no no!! that’s the new word for being a fuser "Pathetic"😵

There’s the problem.

There’s not going to be some magic moment at which all the posters sit around a virtual campfire toasting marshmallows, singing 'Kumbaya'. It’s just the way it is. 

"There’s the problem."

Hi, cleeds.
I beg to differ, sir.
That's half the problem.
The post he responded to is the other half.

Mr. deth,
I think it is very clever of you to post a response that is the very reason why this discussion is taking place. An excellent example for us all on how not to post.

+1 @cleeds 
+1 @arcticdeth

Honestly @arcticdeth  are you suggesting that we embrace a platform of obnoxious, mean-spirited, sarcastically hateful banter and a thick skin is the premise of being able to thrive here?  Wow...what ever happened to a friendly exchange of ideas, experiences, and learning? If that's the framework for this place then I'm out.

@three_easy_payments
@jw944ts
@nonoise

the other, rather interesting (if not unexpected) consequence of this thread is that the worst offenders are in effect ’self identifying’ right here...

some great advice has been given here, the best of which is simply ’ignore the trolls’ -- what they seek, sadly, is to call attention to themselves and get a rise...

@danager

Here is a person who understands the hobby and has direct knowledge about the questions that I’m interested in. Where else can someone get that hands on experience regarding HIFI regarding my specific questions and maybe if I haven’t alienated him be able to provide even more detail upon request.

ha ha i didn’t take earlier your comment as offensive, just in jest... as you may know, we have a bad drought here in california, my lawn is mostly pebbles and gravel at this point, so one day, i may come sit on yours and have a cold one to enjoy ... 😄😄

happy to answer any additional q’s you may have the dacs, i just asked you to search out my prior posts on the topic so i wouldn’t need to repeat that info, which i took some time and care to write - feel free to pm me

+1 jjss49

" Honestly @arcticdeth are you suggesting that we embrace a platform of obnoxious,"

@ three_easy_payments
I don't think that's what arctic is saying. Speaking under correction, I think he was responding to the post prior to his.