I have a Clearaudio Innovation with two tonearms so a dustcover is out of the question anyway. It would be expensive to have one made, and impractical and cumbersome to use when the TT isn’t in use. I just don’t bother covering it with anything. I have a cosmetic brush I use to wipe off the platter before playing sessions, and a feather duster to occasionally dust the plinth and arms.
When I had Rega and Linn LP12 turntables, I removed the dustcovers entirely for playing records.
My environment is somewhat dusty but not terribly so. My wife vacuums the listening room on a regular basis (at least once a week).
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Here comes a bunch of comments and testimonials about dust covers, up or down, good or bad. I only suggest that each individual needs to try it both ways (or each of the 3 possible alternatives, up, down, or off the turntable during play). As I’ve written many times, I am in the last category based on listening tests, a purely subjective judgement.
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Having seen how dust accumulates on a de-staticized LP even with a dust cover on, I would never play a record with the dust cover off. I have a HEPA air filter in the room with the turntable, and I don’t think that completely eliminates accumulation of dust--I think it comes off clothing I wear and from the HVAC system if it is on while playing a record.
I suspect that any difference in sound quality would be negated (for me) by any additional tick noises that added dust would cause, possibly permanently. The three turntables I’ve used in the last 50 years all had dust covers that could be placed down while playing records. My turntable is a SOTA Star Sapphire, and I suspect the vacuum holddown reduces vinyl resonances so that the dust cover wouldn’t make much of an audible difference, but I’ll admit I haven’t even made the comparison. I will, just out of curiosity, with some record that I don’t care much about.
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For what it's worth, I have the Rega P8. The dust cover supplied by Rega protects the unit while not in use, and is designed in such a way it can't possibly be used while the TT is in use. I hope Rega knows more about this issue than I do, and will defer to their judgement.
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Regarding ambient sound feedback: I did an experiment one time in my listening room, with my RT-909 tape recorder and my Music Hall MMF-7 TT (project OEM tonearm). The cartridge was a higher end GRADO.
I started the record playing, recording into the RT-909. After the record play was about 1/2 way of the LP, I unplugged the TT BUT KEPT THE 909 TAPING. So, the needle is sitting motionless in the groove of the motionless LP, with the RT-909 continuing to record the cartridge output.
They I walked around the room, clapping, shouting, humming, singing, and even stomping a couple times, all at various amplitudes.
You guessed it: when I played the tape from the "non playing" sections back, I heard many of the clappings, many of the shouting, some of the higher amplitude singing, and all of the stompings.
My deduction was that ambient sound feedback from the listening room and speakers is significant and audible...
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There is no correct answer. No corporation or engineer can give you the correct answer. Do what makes you feel good, but I’d advise against scolding others who do not see the issue in the same light as you (meaning any of us).
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I don’t use covers on my turntables. But I used to run a Linn LP12 decades ago. I did some experimenting with the lid up and the lid down. With a blindfold on and my partner gently raising and lowering the acrylic, I could hear the lid going up as a veil being lifted, literally freeing the music. Lid down, music became closed in. Same drill with covers on small signal tube amps.
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.."My deduction was that ambient sound feedback from the listening room and speakers is significant and audible.."
But it's fair to say that you don't stomp around and shout out while actually listening to music. Nor do you use a buzz saw, etc. Chances are you are sitting quietly when listening to music, so your experiment only demonstrated what we already know, that a cartridge is a transducer and as such can act weakly as a microphone, converting ambient sound wave energy into an electrical signal just as it converts wiggles of the stylus into an electrical signal. Now consider the opposite case which very much does pertain to the actual use of a cartridge: Have you ever stood near your TT and heard low level music signal emanating direct from the headshell? Most of us have observed that phenomenon. When you play an LP with the dust cover lowered, it is possible that the low level music signal emitted directly from the cartridge can bounce around the inside of the dust cover and feed back on the desired work of the cartridge, causing distortion. Also, ambient sound in the room, minimal though that may be, will cause the dust cover itself to vibrate, since its horizontal top surface is like a drum skin. That too can be picked up by the cartridge. In any case, whether these issues play into it or not, I hear what Noromance hears, and I concluded long ago that I don't want the dust cover anywhere around the TT when I am listening. (Raising the cover on its hinges also has its issues, since then the cover presents as a sort of reflector.) But I still recommend that you decide for yourself.
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I have the VPI HW40 turntable and it came with a dustcover which can be attached with included hinges. At first I was just going to go without the cover as I did not have enough room for the hinged cover to open enough. Then I thought that without the hinges I can just simply lift the cover and place it to the side when playing. Problem solved. Without the cover, dust on the table would be a constant problem to clean. I would rather not dust around an expensive cartridge.
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The generally larger physical size & often non symmetrical overall shape w/ outboard motors or arm boards of the better turntables necessitates that dust covers are not in play when the table is in use. That said, there’s likely a reason these manufacturers don’t attempt to attach dust covers to their fine products..The optional cover for my Basis 2500 just sits over it on the rack & must be removed to used to play a record.
It makes sense to me, if given the choice, to not add any other additional potential unwanted vibration catching / generating material touching the base of a highly sensitive device. Manufacturers go to great lengths to do just the opposite through substantial mass, dampening or even light weight but very high stiffness in Rega’s case.
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I have a Technics SL1200G and it has a hinged, removeable dust cover; when not in use the dust cover is on and closed, when I'm playing records, I just remove the cover from the TT and put it elsewhere until I'm done and then put it back on again.
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I have always removed the acrylic dust covers from my turntables when listening to them.
On an aside regarding actual dust covers for all types of audio gear, I have several inexpensive vinyl dust covers for the audio gear I use regularly. However, I keep most of my audio gear wrapped in plastic wrap (the stuff you use for sandwiches and such - I use a product called stretch tite). It’s dirt cheap to use and when you’re ready to use a piece of high end gear you just toss it and use a new piece of plastic wrap to reseal the piece of equipment when you’re through using it. I’ve been storing audio gear like this for years, and because you can choose the size of the plastic wrap, it’s also useful for covering odd sized highend gear like some turntables.
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No cover on/off or dust issues
https://www.elpj.com/
Similar to that thing introduced in the mid 80's with little silver discs.
I like Dekays suggestion - cone of silence actually could be answer to many of life concerns.
Convert all your LP'S into files- they will sound exactly like the LP.
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@tablejockey I think you have completely missed one of the most important and appreciated aspects of playing vinyl records, and that is the visual, tactile, organic and emotional aspect of handling physical media. Beautiful album and gatefold design, liner notes, lyrics, …
To walk over to your shelf with records, peruse by flipping through the bins or shelves, and pull out something to play that strikes you right then and there.
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"Convert all your LP'S into files- they will sound exactly like the LP."
Now here is an honest man's assessment of the state of his hearing! Both of my turntables still out perform files to my aging ears, although the gap is definitely narrowing. I also have to admit that the latest Redbook CD is sounding remarkably good. I have been listening to a lot of those lately comparing two CD players, my long standing Luxman D-10X against a freshly acquired Marantz SA10 slated for our second home, but for now both residing under one roof. Anyway in the FWIW department I remove the dust cover on my SL1200 GAE when playing records, but out of sheer laziness lift it and leave open on the hinges on my HW40. But I believe lewm has the right approach.
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The ELP is not immune to dust, IIRC. TJ, if you want to come over and digitize my 3000 LPs, you’re welcome if you bring the necessary gear.
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It's obvious, to me, that this Chief Engineer of Thorens, at that time, was doing nothing other than damage control, to cover up a significant engineering design fault. If the tolerances between the platter, record and TT dustcover were so tight so as to not allow for an extremely miniscule variation in the diameter of a spinning record with dust cover down (e.g. micron? micrometer?) because a record's hole might not be perfectly on center, that is an engineering design flaw. Surely, a company like Thorens and TT engineers, in general, should have accounted for record pressing & manufacturing flaws, especially in the 60s & 70s! I wonder how much longer that Chief Engineer worked for Thorens after that fiasco!
As for playing records with the TT dustcover off, since the late 50s & early 60s, to date, even though I have lived in relatively "dust-free" environments, so to speak, I have always played records with the dustcover on and in the down position and never noticed any deleterious sound quality consequences, as a result, even at high decibel levels. Of course, this presumes quality components and good system set-up. Unless you have your audio system set-up in a scientific research or industrial production cleanroom, there is always dust & dust motes in the air. I suppose using a good HEPA equipped air cleaner near your TT might make sense but only if it's a very, very quiet unit. I'm considering using one (i.e. HEPA equipped air cleaner) in my record cleaning system.
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Impractical, don’t kid yourself, it’s a problem needing solution. Expensive TT’s (any TT) without a dust cover is an incomplete solution, an abomination, they should be ashamed of themselves.
I go for dust minimization and dust barrier, uncover to play. My forced air supply vent (end of the run) at that end is blocked, the return air vent on the far wall somehow pulls enough for comfort all seasons.
You’ve caught a glimpse of dust in sun beams. It is pure folly to think invisible contaminants are not gathering and accumulating on all possible surfaces of your very finely manufactured stylus, cantilever, arm pivots, bearings, TT: anything left open to the air. At least a cloth cover when not in use.
Hinged, playing while closed: as I said, even if I cannot hear/prove it, I cannot get the concept of reflected microphonics out of my mind, so prior TT, I left it up/open (level the TT when weight is shifted thusly) or don’t attach the hinges, lift it off.
Vibrations in the space from the speakers reaching the surface of the LP? I cannot sense any movement getting involved? If I had my rear ports open, that would be an issue, but they are sealed since I moved to this space 46 years ago. The speaker's tops are slanted and delicate things do not vibrate/move, things in front/sides all have a combo of felt feet/no touch each other rule and all artwork corners have tak at the corners. I get many opportunities to see dust movement in variously directed sun beams, my TT is in front 3 windows facing south and one from right side catching late afternoon/sunset rays. Speakers Off/on, the dust in the rays does not reveal change of air movement in the TT's vicinity. The only clue I have.
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"think you have completely missed one of the most important and appreciated ..."
bimmerlover-
Actually, I'm an LP disciple/bin diver/original press weirdo.
I just make fun of my own obsession with the entire process.
Currently enjoying a STRONG cup of coffee, listening to Ludwig V's
9th- RCA Living Stereo 1959
Boston Symphony/Munch
Carpe Diem!
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my method of speaker toe-in and rear slant, thus inward and upward directivity, is part of why I don’t seem to get vibrations on the surface of the LP between/behind the sealed boxes I think. Your setup may be part of the solution, or .......
My SUT to select which arm and impedance or PASS for MM just fits under the side of my TT, (normally I can see/move it’s two selector knobs, shown pushed too far underneath the TT here) I have to move my Preamp/Amp cabinet to work on it. Notice felt squares on the end of the dust cover
It’s big, you need to plan for where it goes during play, some covers would be huge, it may determine where you place other equipment, it did in my setup.
Some more felt on the face of the Reel to Reel Tape Player protects the cover when using the TT. Below, prior setup, SUT was on a shelf below the TT, actually harder to see the various markings, hard to position, but better now.
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I can only comment on the original post in regard to on or off with dust covers…..
That Thorens engineer was covering up (literally) the original design problem with that model of deck…..
Which manufacturer would not allow a tolerance for eccentric records in the first design stage. Even worse not to address issues before mass production?
Thorens dropped a clanger here all right, big time and gave a stupid excuse!
Even stranger for a hi-end dealer to accept this and to finish the tale…believe the manufacturer that it was not ‘their fault’
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Related:
Warps get helped, but for typical LPs, all that I play:
I definitely want to use something at the center spindle to assist rigidity, minimize air pocket bulge below, eliminate potential of any movement, i.e. LP firmly in place to transmit groove info most completely to the stylus, the forces involved are tremendous.
Sturdy designs like former Thorens TD124, Technics SP-15, current JVC TT81, I use somewhat heavy AT Disc Stabilizer, 300 grams
Clamps, and Retainers exist to reduce weight concerns for some designs, Ask your maker
Luxman PD441, 444, 555 all have a special ’load reducing’ motor design, magnetics reduce 80% of the weight on the bearing, so I got my friend rubber retainers used to hold tape reels on spindles the same diameter, you just push them on.
I like the idea of vacuum hold, but not the idea of a running motor, so I wanted to also use weight at the perimeter, I tried Wayne’s Perimeter Ring, unsuccessfully as the ring’s weights hang down too low and touch the wide rim of the JVC TT81
Here it is shown upside down, with the centering jig you need
My Mitsubishi LT-5V Vertical TT has a very ingenious hinged arm with spring assisted center clamp/pull to release
In my garage/shop, to keep an 8 track and fit a dual cassette deck in the stack, I changed to a Sony Front Loading Drawer Type TT, too light of a mechanism for a weight, and no clearance to place anything on/off anyway.
I found an advanced stylus P Mount, and then an adapter to convert P mount to 1/2" standard.
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I believe the previous post is hi-jacking this debate.
I thought we were talking about turntables cover on or off?
Anyway, back on track please…..
oldaudiophile, you are a kindred spirit. I believe entirely what you say. I replied to the original poster without reading all through the other replies. I did not ‘hack’ your opinions but we are of the same old school l believe. Yes Thorens did a public relations job on that complaint about the cover being too small and unfit for purpose.
l am in the UK and Thorens dominated mainland Europe in the 70s and 80s (not UK which was Garrard territory). I am very familiar with Thorens turntable owners in that period and spent many evenings music listening with their set ups. I can never recall any manuals stating remove the covers ever! Unless someone bought a chassis deck to install on a hi-fi bench then the cover on or off issue may have been different.
Hi-fi has become a bit of a home living statement now so it must be always on show. Now it’s all about design over aesthetics and manufacturers today have abandoned in most cases the use of turntable covers.
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@elliottbnewcombjr
I use a center weight and peripheral ring on my Clearaudio Innovation and they work quite well. However, the turntable is designed for them I also use Clearaudio's versions so they fit and do the job perfectly.
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Elliot your bias compensator is way off….
This thread is about turntable covers … on or off!
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As a record rotates, the air closest to the surface gets accelerated towards the periphery, drawing a steady stream of air down around the spindle. So reduction of air-born dust suggests closing the dust cover during play.
A dust cover also acts a bit like closing a window, and it will attenuate external airborne vibrations from reaching the cartridge. My Garrard 301 table is in the same room as my speakers, which are either dipole Quad electrostatics or KEF Reference 1 with rear ports. The dustcover is an acrylic affair made by SME and is voluminous with plenty of space. I am very surprised that the sonic effect of closing my dustcover seems to be subtle to non-existent, at least to my ears.
Obviously, there is acoustic output from the needle / cantilever which is partly airborne and partly transmitted through the vinyl record, I am using a 5-mm Achromat to absorb record reflections and transmission to the platter, which leaves those airborne sounds we can just hear if we are close enough. They will reflect internally from a lowered dustcover but I would have thought the sound level would be far less than the speakers generate with the lid open!
So I put the lid down unless i forget!
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So I have a question for those of us who advocate using a dust cover during play, for the primary reason to avoid the accumulation of dust. (The acoustic argument is different, I think.) Let’s assume we all agree there is some sense to using a dust cover when the TT is not in use. Presumably, that keeps the area under the dust cover free of dust during those periods. Furthermore, when you remove an LP from its sleeve and place it on the now uncovered dust free platter, we can have reason to believe that the LP playing surface is also free of dust, relatively speaking. Then most of us use some sort of record brush prior to play, and some of us take steps to reduce the static charge on the playing surface, which would go further to delimit the possible accumulation of dust during play. Moreover, it takes about 20 minutes to play one side of a 33 rpm LP, so the net exposure time to the environmental dust is about that long. Do you in the dust cover user during play camp suppose that in the course of 20 minutes, the LP could possibly accumulate enough environmental dust to cause ticks and pops (presumably that could only affect the innermost grooves, since they would be exposed longest to the air before being "read" by the stylus) or to otherwise damage the LP? Even accounting for the fact that when you set the stylus down on the outermost grooves, the LP is likely to be "clean"? And finally, what do you think happens to dust in the air that you trap over the LP surface, by the very act of using the dust cover? At least with no dust cover, the airborne dust has a chance to pass harmlessly across the LP surface and land somewhere else. Once the dust cover is placed, the airborne dust has nowhere else to go but the LP surface.
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@lewm
You raise good questions. Hopefully, some grad student somewhere will research the answers. I have my beliefs/worries, but it's all speculative.
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I think for all those who think using a dustcover is a panacea, turn out the lights and cast a UV light on the playing surface and tell me it's dust free. [hint: it isn't]
A lot of high end tables (like mine) don't really even support using a dustcover, during play or otherwise. After hundreds/thousands of hours of use without one it's just not an issue.
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LP12 owner here : Dust Cover always on even when DSD64 ripping Vinyl. Why ? Dust and Dog hairs coming from my Garage and my two Dogs. Plus I hear ZERO difference with the cover up or down !
For 40 years (ok...I took a 6 year hiatus) LP spinner (my previous MoFi hadn o dust cover ....period) and Dual CS515 prior always played with the cover down.
That’s my take on the subject.
Happy New Year Everyone !
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Ok everyone take a deep breath, go play a record. Now do you feel better? Do you know where your dust cover is?
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‘richardbrand’ has a head start with the answer so far l think. Exposing a record for the least amount of time is paramount. 1 - 0 to Richard.
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Just how resolving is the system? Or the listener's apparatus? I can hear the difference a sheet of paper makes under a record. Dust notwithstanding, the audible impact of a hunk of plastic added to a system must be discernible.
- the sonic effect of closing my dustcover seems to be subtle to non-existent, at least to my ears.
- I hear ZERO difference with the cover up or down !
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"@elliottbnewcombjr Why not move the dining table set to the other end of the room?"
You would think, right. Of course I have moved the table/chairs out, tossed down a rug ... to compare/prove it still sounds great with them there. I’m actually quite pleased with how versatile the room is.
It’s one room, 14’ wide, 24’ long only 8’ high, with both music/dining at one end and living/video other end, a cross aisle to a 3 season porch just in front of these 2 listening chairs which simply turn around to join living/video which is oriented across the 14’ width behind them
Imaging is all Phantom in 2 Channel, the table and chairs may actually help with imaging once you accept that no sound is blocked, here we add a Christmas Tree which also blocks nothing except your mind if you think about it.
I add 3 leaves in the table for family gatherings
a member pointed out that the piano might make vibrations, I thought so too. I have tried with my Amazing Bytes CD to start/stop/listen to all 29 1/3 octave test tones, I cannot get the piano to sing.
The speakers are on 3 wheels, I can push them back into the corners when needed for holiday dinners, position/toe them in for one or two listeners, DBX Cross Dispersion Method as discussed here
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11516
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Elliot, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a square-shaped flat screen TV before now. Happy new year.
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Anyone getting back to the real question posted on this thread?
Theres been so much off track mumbo-jumbo on furnishings, table/chairs, record clamps and TV innuendo. This just shouldn’t be here!
Point on task was simple, ‘dust covers’ on or off?
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I think you’ve made your position clear. “Exposing the record for the least amount of time is paramount “, for which you awarded RB one point, to zero for all other opinions. So what more do you want on this boring subject?
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lewm
What l meant was RB was one point ahead of the field.
Also it was not my original point….. It was ‘billstevenson’ who posted this thread !
And l see a few posts back, billstevenson is having a laugh too !
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To my reading of it, the OP is not asking a question; it makes a statement. To wit: "So the often offered extremes: a) Always play your records with the dust cover down, or b) put the dust cover away in it's box and never use it, should both be recognized for what they are are - not solutions at all. First principles: Identify the problem(s), seek solutions and alternatives, prioritize."
That reminds me of Mike Myers SNL character, the lady on the apocryphal NYC radio show, "Coffee Talk", who would pose an issue without an opinion, and then say "Discuss". Predictably, that is what has happened here. Bill left off the obvious third option, which is to use the dust cover only when the turntable is not in use, and that too has been discussed. I wager no one's opinion has been changed.
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The big question now is…..Has anyone’s opinion changed?
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@lewm
Yes I do not shout while playing, but the MUSIC PLAYING BACK certainly does, and would definitely be feeding back into the cartridge.
If you do not want to believe there is feedback distortion, try this.
You need two TTs. Setup the "motionless needle taping" on one table, play loud music through the other table. Then playback the dead needle tape. You will hear the music you were playing on the active table.
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And various test scenarios. One lid up, one lid down and for good measure one lid off
You seem good to go on this one. Please let us know (if you care to) your summations on the differences if any?
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Like Bill mentioned in his OP, of course there is such a thing as acoustic feedback that could in the worst case affect the cartridge, but the cure for that is to move the TT or the speakers so as to prevent the phenomenon. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, acoustic feedback of sufficient magnitude to affect the cartridge is also going to energize the massive undamped dust cover with possibly worse consequences. No experiment is necessary, ltmandela.
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I have a Rega P8 and recently had the opportunity to play with a Naia. Can confirm that Rega ships their $13,000 TT with the same janky dust cover the P8 comes with, if that tells you anything.
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@lewm
Household-wide, I normally subscribe to the equilibrium theory of dust - eventually enough leaves to balance the amount arriving! But if you do use a dust cover while playing, the air volume inside the cover is pretty much a closed system so once the dust settles, no more arrives. Most seems to end up on my stylus which I can now see with my new Zeiss loupe.
@noromance
I am not surprised you can hear a sheet of paper inserted under a record. A lot of sound energy is generated by the stylus and some of this energy hits the bottom of the record. If the record is well-coupled to the platter, the energy will pass into the platter and be dissipated. With paper, it is more likely to bounce back and affect the stylus.
At least, that's the theory behind the Achromat which is basically a vinyl mat infused with tiny air bubbles to absorb vibration. Vinyl couples well with vinyl!
I am surprised at the lack of acoustic feedback I am encountering. But whether you consider a dustcover to be a massive undamped structure or not, it provides more attenuation than thin air! It cannot create more sound energy than hits it, and some is absorbed and some reflected.
Of course, if the record surface and the cartridge body are both displaced equally by impinging vibrations, there is no relative movement to contribute to the signal output by the cartridge.
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My Pro-ject tt user manual specifically states the dust cover can pick up resonance from the loudspeakers and pass those resonances into the plinth, therefore remove the dust cover while playing.
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It is pretty obvious most turntable manufacturers would rather not have to deal with dustcovers!
Thought I'd try to measure the attenuation from my cover, so I dug out my Denon Audio Technical CD and played some test tracks. At the same time, I ran a Sound Meter application on my Android phone and put the phone on my platter mat near the pickup. I could watch the phone while raising and lowering the dustcover.
On 1000-Hz test tones, the attenuation was about -13-dB with the cover down, while it was only about -3-dB down on white noise On pink noise there was barely any difference!
I must point out that my plinth and table lean towards the massive side. The more the mass, the less the amplitude generated by a specific acoustic energy level. I find it interesting that Pro-ject don't want airborne vibrations to enter their plinth from a dustcover, but are presumably happy for them to enter the platter directly.
Acoustic feedback might make for nicer sounds, and could even explain why so many like records. But it does not make for accurate playback if that is your thing.
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I don't know why I keep posting on this, because it is one of those questions where every one of us is already convinced of the efficacy and rightness of his or her current practice. We are all pretty much old farts and set in our ways. Suffice to say, what I have already said, anything anyone else wants to do is fine with me. I am operating based on my own past experiences, and so probably is everyone else. But please please don't accuse others of (1) not having a system good enough to hear what you hear, or (2) being a Philistine and so able to tolerate the horrible problem that you have seen fit to prevent.
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