Two subs are always better than one. They extend the soundstage. If you are looking for realistic sound then the subs will be turned now to a whisper... if they are not then the sound field will become compromised and broken up by the extended bass interfering. It really depends on what you are looking for... if those hip hop cars where you can feel them go by the bass vibrating your car... then go big. If you're looking for accurate sound then smaller. |
IMO, too much money is spent on main speakers that try to accomplish too much with respect to quality and quantity of bass. Too often the result is boomy, ill-defined bass unless you spend a lot of money to get it right. Your 804s are well-suited to provide enjoyable, balanced sound from around 40Hz up. Take the win. Adding subs will enhance your experience and improve on what you hear at the higher frequencies. IME, two subs are way better than one and even more can be better yet. Google "Swarm Subwoofer System" and "AudioKinesis" to read about the potential benefits of using an array of subs. Not everyone can either afford an array of subs or get away with having 3 or 4 subs in their room. However, if you can swing two subs I suspect you would be happier with the result compared to only using one. I will let others weigh in on which brands/models of subs to consider. My Aerial SW-12 subs are plenty impactful, musical, and adjustable for me so I never needed to try others. I have had good luck with them in the front of the room, set up for stereo, using line-level connections, and dialed in with a light touch. I have tried a passive high-pass filter to relieve the amplifiers of the chore of driving the lowest bass, and to relieve my main speakers from having to reproduce the lowest bass. In my case it was a wash and not a noticable improvement but for others using a high pass filter has been beneficial. Good luck. |
+1 on two subs, so size might be predicated on space available and cost. That being said, ideally I would take two 12" subs over two 10" subs. I am a REL fan, based on experience, sound and reliability. There are many reports here of JL reliability issues. I have heard the B/W subs and would choose REL over them. I also replace two Paradigm subs with REL and again they sounded much better. I am sure a swarm sounds great but even for my excessiveness not practical. IMHO, get the best REL subs you can afford. You may hear that REL subs do not have some of the sophistication in adjustment (variable phase and remote control), but I have absolutely no issues with dialing them in. They add air pressure, bass presence and depth, and augment the soundstage if placed and adjusted properly. Matching brands is not the leading concern either. |
Definitely at least two subs, and three or four is even better if you can swing it. I’d go for 15” subs but no smaller than 12” because they’ll go lower and work more effortlessly with lower distortion than smaller subs. I think Rhytmik subs offer the best performance/$ although they don’t as yet offer software to help dial them in, which is not necessary but can be very helpful. Arendal subs have also gotten good reviews and seem to offer high value, and I’d also consider Paradigm and Perlisten. B&W is overpriced relative to alternatives IMO, and JL Audio has had significant reliability issues that may be more prevalent in their lower-level subs but worth checking before going that route. I want my subs to hit an honest 20Hz because there’s important information down there that improves sense of space/soundstage, and to get there with REL you gotta spend big bucks relative to these other excellent alternatives. If it’s me I’d go with a Swarm from Audiokinesis, but if that’s not possible I’d go with a pair of 15” Rythmiks and take the thousands you’ll save and upgrade other equipment or go on a nice vacation. Hope this helps, and best of luck. |
Welcome to the dark side. The answer to your question is, it depends on what your goals are, what you listen to and how loud you listen. If you prefer aggressive bass driven music, like blues, rock, EDM, and even modern country, specially at higher volume levels, bigger will be better. Be warned. A good subwoofer system will expose room node issues, which is why more is better than less, up to four. I would read this before doing anything. A great subwoofer system can be immensely rewarding, they can also be immensely frustrating. I have been using subs for decades and much to my chagrin, I’m still learning. |
This may be true, but for me it is subordinate to them helping with room modes. Two is good, three is great, four is...marginally better. Helpful: |
Swarm, DBA, Audio Kinesis, and James Romeyn… https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/general-info-subwoofers/ I made the change about 4 years ago with help from JR Bosclaire (Wally Tools). And when I say help, I mean he did all the work and I held the mic all over the room. The thing that blows me away to this day, aside from the dynamic sonic improvement, is how little it cost me relative to my system and to mainstream audio products. I totally get the feeling that four subs is a lot. I debated that as well. I also felt my family would lose their shi$ if I added more “boxes” to our family room (we have an open floor plan). An advantage of a DBA is the subs are asymmetrically placed around the room and the size of Jame’s implementation are not really that big (especially compared to what’s out there commercially). There was definitely resistance at first, but I got lucky. My wife and kids recognized this hobby is a passion of mine and after a while we all sort of just forgot about them. Just remember everything takes time. Anyhow that’s a little more context for you to think about. So, one is better than none. Two is better than one. And so on… I hope you will let us know what you decide and report back. |
+1 for multiple subs. If your mains go very low, like your 804 D3's, you're stuck with trying to balance two issues: imaging (driven by speaker placement) and room modes (dictated by speaker placement). You would be incredibly lucky if your solution to these two problems happened at the exact same speaker placement! By separating the two, you get to put your mains in the ideal place for imaging, but get to move the low frequency sources (the subs) wherever is ideal to minimize problems with room modes. Conquering modes is where "the more, the better" mantra with subs comes in. To really get this separation, you need to high-pass the main speakers, and low-pass the subs, so the sound level and phase are (mostly) matched. Using an active crossover and/or DSP are ways to achieve this. |
A. Whether you decide on one subwoofer or three its imperative they be positioned within your rooms standing wave bass modes. This is a relatively simple way to locate and mark your rooms modes and is only done once. https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement Using any other locations and you'll find yourself as dissatisfied as all those you read about griping, struggling or who've given up. DSP is not a panacea for out of position subwoofers. B. Using a distributed subwoofer array or Swarm essentially eliminates the rooms modes and frees you from preforming the crawl. It also provides a unique and extremely encompassing low frequency presentation. C. The last option is to use a -6dB sub-bass speaker (some also call themselves subwoofers). Regardless of how many are used or how large they are their frequency response begins a steep roll of in the mid 30Hz region. Since they simply do not excite the rooms standing waves they can be located most anywhere, at the expense of losing the true subtle musicality that a properly positioned and adjusted -3dB subwoofers provides.
Personal observations: More often than not speaker manufactures tend to design afterthought or needlessly over built premium priced subwoofers. They offer uselessly dated setup diagrams and/or complicated, or dealer adjustable third party signal processing. High or speaker level connectivity was originally developed for customers whose receivers were without preamp outputs. If it were actually better everybody from Pro audio, sound reinforcement, and the majority of home subwoofer using it. Running the source signal through at least two more sets of inputs and outputs? If the company provides you a list of speakers that their products are "matched" to, your in way over your head. Put simply, one adjustes subwoofers to any speakers not matching a particular speaker. My current two subs have taken the place of four. It took this idiot less than an hour to crawl, position and run the Auto EQ which is 95% of the setup. The other 5% is making manual personal taste adjustments. The newer 12" sounds every bit as potent as the 18" it replaced. Unfortunately the company was sold in 2019 so I'm reluctant to make a recommendation. Pull off your pants and jump in, you'll never go back. |
I say more the merrier. They add depth to my system. I started with one KEF R400B, Each sub has 2x10" speakers and a 200 watt internal amp. That was good, so I added a second of the same. I cross over at 40 hz. They are very adjustable, and you really don't know they're on, until you turn them off. My main speakers are Sonus Faber Cremona Ms. I'm contemplating adding a third. |
1st you have to decide your on your priorities… Do you want Music Bass or Movie Bass ??? The Experience is totally different with each… So what is your main listening going to be ?
I went from (1) SVS Front Firing 12”er to (2) REL 8” Down Firing T-5X’s. The SVS was ok for movies but for music it just didn’t cut it. Was it only because I had one ? I couldn’t tell ya but the 2 RELS are much more musical and dialed in so easily. I found being they had smaller drivers the response was much faster and worked better in my smaller room of 12’ x 12’. Being a smaller driver they have a lot less air to move. I have them dialed in at 45.25hz and volume level as one noted before at “ A Whisper” and couldn’t be happier. No Localization !!!! The secret to a sub’s successful integration into your set up is to not know you’ve got subs, but would seriously miss them if they weren’t there. Wanna drive yourself nuts? .. Nothing worse than hearing bass coming from a specific location in your listening room and having multiple subs certainly balances things more evenly.
Being my PreAmp has HT Bypass I do have the RELs attached to my DENON 3700 AVR as well through the AVR’s LFE output to the REL’s “SEPARATE” LFE input.
NOTE: REL’s allow you to have High QUALITY inputs from BOTH (1) directly from your Audio System’s Amps through the speaker outs sharing the output feed that goes to you speakers and (2) also has SEPERATE LFE inputs for an LFE signal from an AVR with the ability to Automatically switch incoming signals according to the input signal being feed to it.
The bass response for movies is great but music is my key objective and I couldn’t be happier than I am with the (2) RELs |
Had two JL audio Fathom V2 subs that cost me $10,000 USD. I did not heed advice on here to avoid at all costs. One was broken on arrival and the other sounded terrible despite professional integration with REW, miniDSP etc. Martin Logan’s at 1/3 the price have been flawless. Like others said, friends don’t let friends buy JL. |
Deep Subject...Well I started with two SVS SB10's for higher end tube amp stereo listening.....And as with anyone into music playback one day after owning your equipment you want to hear more detail from it.....But cost and your room space play another big part on what you can afford and room acoustic of course in end of what best sound you can achieve with your equipment..Moving all speakers few degrees or location of Subwoofer,, It does not stop..But after 5 years with SB10's and smaller tube amp I decided to go bigger tube amp and Sub to SVS SB16 and talking to SVS was going to go with smaller subs vs one big SB16..But my living room was tough placing two subs and wiring them .. Do two subs sound better yes they do ..If you have the room and placement for them only.. I went with one SB16 and 95% I am happy with it..It sound more natural with my listening then dual SB 10's I had..And I guess no matter what you have or listen to you always in your mind think it could sound better ...I think some days mood plays a big part of what you hear than other days...And way songs are recorded plays big part of how song sounds .. And with tube amp I do not have adjustment to change bass or tremble with knob so some songs I need to roll tubes with some songs ..But what I hear from my single SB16 makes me happy over my Dual SB10's..Only your ears can tell you what you need to make you happy..If you have the room and money buy duals if not buy largest Sub and be content...You do learn to listen to what you have and hopefully you chose the right Amp,Speakers,DAC,&Sub..I found speaker stands changed my sound the most out of everything I have done.. |
@goducks44 Great topic and qood question. I would strongly favor getting two subs over one sub. If you have room to place the subs outside of your lovely B&Ws it will stretch the sound stage and you will very pleased. I have a room, slightly smaller than yours at 13 x 16 feet. I started with one JL audio F112v2 and got very good results. When the budget allowed I added a second matching sub and the overall improvement of adding the second sub was more than 2x just the single sub. I'm aware that JL has had some reliability issues but my understanding is that it was more with their entry level subs not the Fathom line. I have two SVS subs in my HT room and I've had issues with both SVSs that had to be warrantied. My JLs have been fine. As far as sub size goes, either the 12" or 13" will work in your room. I don't think that you will miss anything using the F112v2s. I measured my room and the 112s are playing full volume down to 10hz (yes I was shocked too). the 13" subs will move a little more air. One final thought, I upgraded the JL footers to the Gaia feet and the bass tightened up a lot and it was a very worthwhile investment. I have wood floors. Good luck and cheeers. |
I replaced my KEF Reference 5’s, with Sonus Farber, Amati G5’s and now I rarely use my 12” subwoofer anymore. I also have a set of Acoustat Model X’s, that can blast me out of the room with 40 watt amps. Having said that, they really need a subwoofer or two at lower sound levels. Have you ever thought about getting a pair of Planar headphones? All the best. |
Was just in this same situation. Went out and auditioned the JL subs, they KICK! If you only get one, get the bigger one, if you get 2 get the smaller ones. They will put out way more bass than you think, or even need. However, the bigger sub does have room correction. But during my audition, we were swapping them all around, without and DSP, they integrated really well. In the end, was talking to a friend who sold me his old sub array, 3x10 600w, it is way more then I'll ever need. Like you my mains go down around 36htz, crossed over my sub at 44htz. |
Subwoofers are still very difficult to integrate in a true HEA system. HT fans are less about seamless integration but praise the sound of jet engines/explosions and even dinosaurs walking through a jungle, not music to my ears! Dealers/sellers will almost always advocate the need for subs, now they push for two subwoofers. Why? Because it’s another component to sell. The budget Audiophile will put more importance on a sub then an amplifier or source component. The top level Audiophile might have FOMO over the lowest octave which could take his system a level or 2 backwards, even with near perfect integration its likely a sideways move. |
@dayglow There’s virtually nothing here I agree with. Subwoofers are not that hard to integrate if you have any idea what you’re doing, and if you read Todd Welti’s research who’s a foremost authority on subwoofers he shows with measurements why 2, 3, or 4 subs are significantly better than one. And that last octave is very worth being concerned with because as others have mentioned here having that can vastly improve imaging and 3D soundstage — it’s not just about bass with subs. |
It’s interesting to see the benefits of a distributed multi-sub system growing in acceptance in the nineteen years or so since Todd Welti and Earl Geddes, completely independent from one another, first began advocating for such. Disclaimer: I was an early adopter, and have been manufacturing a multisub system based on Earl’s ideas (with his permission) since early 2006. One relatively minor point which I believe is worth mentioning has to do with low-end extension. My experience has been with four subs so that is what I will be referring to in this post, but the principle I’m going to describe applies whenever you have two or more subs spaced fairly far apart: Four subs intelligently distributed around the room will often go a bit deeper than a single such sub would. Let me explain - At the upper end of the bass region, say 80 Hz or so, the outputs of the four subs will tend to combine in semi-random phase. This is because the distances between the subs, and their distances to room boundaries, are comparable to the wavelengths or large fractions of the wavelengths. The in-room response smoothing we get from a distributed multisub system is because the outputs of the subs do not sum coherently. Down at lower end of the bass region, say 20 Hz or so, the distances between subs and the distances to room boundaries tends to be much smaller fractions of a wavelength, so the outputs of the subs tend to sum approximately (though not precisely) in-phase. This of course varies with room and set-up specifics. Theoretically, four sources combing in-phase will sum to 6 dB louder than four sources combining in semi-random phase. (For two sources, the theoretical difference would be 3 dB). Real-world the difference with four subs distributed around the room is less than the theory predicts, but we often get a 2-4 dB boost at the low-end from the more-in-phase summation at the bottom end of the bass region. So the implication is, four small subs intelligently distributed will have a little bit more bottom-end extension than the performance of one individual sub predicts. By how much depends on the specifics, but 3-5 Hz seems to be in the ballpark. One other small consideration that may not be obvious: Since we tend to set the level of our subwoofers based on what sounds the most natural, if there is a significant peak in the bass region we will usually set the level just below where that peak is too obtrusive. So if we can tolerate a 3 dB peak and a single big sub has a 6 dB in-room peak, we’ll probably set the level where that 6 dB peak is only sticking up by 3 dB relative to the broadband SPL, which leaves the rest of the bass region 3 dB lower in level than it should be. On the other hand if our subwoofers’ in-room peak is only 3 dB (regardless of how we ended up with the smoother in-room response), we can get away with setting the level of our subs 3 dB louder than before, so now there is a better level-match with the rest of the spectrum. In other words, a distributed multi-sub system can allow you to turn up the bass region a bit louder, to a more correct level, before the worst of the peaks becomes obtrusive. This can result in better "slam" than a system which theoretically goes a bit deeper because we haven’t had to dial down the bass region a bit to prevent the occasional boomy note. Note that the ear is particularly sensitive to small changes in SPL in the bass region, as predicted by the bunching up of the equal-loudness curves below 100 Hz or so. Therefore numerically small improvements in the in-room frequency response in the bass region tend to pay larger-than-expected dividends. Finally, J.R. Boisclair was mentioned. Imo he is the world’s foremost expert on how to set up the four-piece multisub system I make, and to his credit he got there with zero input from me. Duke |
Go JL!! And hope you pick up an active crossover JL-1 from them as well. Big difference cutting off the lows from the 804’s and sending them off to a pair of subs. It takes effort however when the right frequency and slope is determined the transition is rather seamless and the dynamics seem to rise substantially. I use Maggie's to subs with an active Bryston 10B sub cross over. |
Hello goducks44, Suggest that might add Hsu subwoofers to your search. Dr. Hsu's facility is located in Anaheim, Ca.near the 57 fwy. Dr.Hsu (Engineering PhD from MIT) has been designing subs for over 40 years. Lots more info and contact info at his WS PS. Either DR. Hsu (pronounced "shoe") or his right hand assistant, Kevin, answers calls, Good luck in your search. |
fastfreight +1 I have a nice 10” Rel (T/9i that works so well, I’ve not needed to shop further. |
Yes like many I recommend two subs or more if possible I listen to everything from Frank Sinatra too Odesza and I'm in my mid 70's I have two SVS Ultra 13 subs with the upgraded plate amps with DSP control My tower speakers also have built-in powered subs with gain control, so I'm assuming that it's like a bass array All I know is when listen to my music I have no idea were the bass is coming from and trust me it sure can energize the room and l have the crossover set pretty low
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For sure not one sub. It may make your system sound worse-it did for me. Two subs at a minimum, 4 being best. As has been previously mentioned-the biggest effect of adding subs is how it cleans up the sonic clutter in your room. The second effect is a tighter more natural bass. The audiokinesis swarm is a great value and would likely work well with your speakers. I had one in place for several years, until I realized my Magico S7's with 3 10" woofers each were running over the 4 10" subwoofers in the swarm. I switched to 4 B&W DB1D's and the improvement was astonishing. If you don't go with the swarm, I would recommend that you chose a sub with DSP capabilities. Again, at least 2 subs! |
I'll throw in on this one...SVS makes a whole line of subs that rattle the rafters. They come with very thorough software application to help integrate into your system and if you choose correctly you'll find they offer very low distortion and enough headroom to satisfy anyone, especially if you intend to do multiple subs. They have a just recently released model in the 17" size that looks very impressive and according to what I have read about it sports the lowest distortion of any sub currently available that I am aware of. They are not cheap but I can say with confidence they are sure worth taking a listen to. They are readily available thru Crutchfield and other places too as well as direct from SVS. I have a couple of their smaller subs in my music room and they do a fine job of filling in that bottom octave. |
@goducks44 I have a similar sized room and my mains are the Magico S3 II's. I also went with the Audiokinesis Swarm Sub system as has been mentioned many times in this thread with amazing results. They truly transformed my system. I worked with Duke to get custom stained veneers to match the furniture in my dedicated listening room (Stickley Mission Oak) on the four subs. They integrate beautifully and the two that are in my line of sight double as plant stands! Can't recommend them enough! |
