You might want to search the topics on Balanced tech. And, PM fellow Audiogoner Ralph Karsten (atmasphere).
Though a piece of equipment might have balanced input/outputs, if it doesn't support the AES standard, then all bets are off. True balanced design will remove the grounding issues and allow the cables to work while minimizing inherent 'cable sound'.
Also, you need a system that can allow you to hear the difference between XLR and RCA. A basic system might not let you enjoy the benefits that you would enjoy with a higher resolving system. My 2 cents...
Bob
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I never use balanced unless I have to. you've already gotten the advice to always go balanced.
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The quality and sonic characteristics of the preamp are of the highest importance and the interconnect capabilities are of a vastly smaller or of no importance. But the world is slowly migrating to balanced. On some equipment they may sound slightly better.
For instance, I compared balanced and unbalanced on my current Audio Research equipment and I couldn’t tell the difference. Audio Research recommends balanced, but does a great job of converting to non-balanced.
If all else is equal... and it virtually never is... you want the option for either. There is a slow migration from unbalanced to balanced. You can save money by using unbalanced since often quality interconnects are much cheaper.
If I could get an older high end Conrad Johnson preamp for instance, that did not have balanced over a much lessor preamp with balanced. I would do it.
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The short answer to your question is, it is not a good idea to base your decision on which preamp to buy solely on the basis of balanced outputs. First of all, they do not exist for tube equipment, maybe there is a hybrid out there I am not aware of, but for all practical purposes anything with XLR connections is going to be solid state. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what you want of course. Next let me share a recent experience with you, admittedly this is only anecdotal, but I think it helps to frame this discussion. In my main system, my line stage is a Conrad Johnson ART Phono, this is that company's current top unit, and retails for $28K. It is pretty good. It has only RCA of course, because it is a tube preamp. For my second home I recently put together a new system. For it I purchased an integrated Marantz PM10 and it has XLR connections. I also have on hand a Precision line stage, a $50K unit. While I had these all together one of the things I did was compare XLR and RCA connectors. Without getting into great detail, I learned that both the C-J and the Precision line stages sounded better than than the Marantz PM10 the one integrated into the unit even when using RCA connectors (Audio Sensibility Statement Silver). That should surprise no one. I also learned that RCA connectors as above sounded better than a Shunyata XLR connector (Gamma) when used to connect either of two cd players (Luxman D-10X or Marantz SA10). So, from that I conclude that there is more to the matter than merely what kind of connectors are used. Therefore, that is not a good criterion for basing a decision on what component to buy. It might be a tie breaker if all else was equal, because when I compared two equal connectors one RCA and the other XLR there was a small difference in favor of the latter. Let me be clear, though, with emphasis on the fact the the difference was small.
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I use Ayre equipment.....all the components even the phono are balanced
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Ayre is all solid state, no tubes. The OP wants balanced and rca on a tube preamp.
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My Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL tube preamp has one balanced input. The rest are unbalanced. I asked LTA if there was any benefit to using the balanced input. They said it would depend on the strengths of the connected device. My dac has both balanced and unbalanced outputs.
I'm using unbalanced because my best cables are unbalanced.
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For me it was more about flexibility. I like having both because not all power amps have both. Also, I'm thinking about getting some high-end active powered speakers. I can use my existing preamp to switch between my powered speakers and passive speakers between both sets of speakers without changing cables. Balanced cables are supposed to have a lower noise floor especially for longer runs but I think in reality it doesn't matter that much for the average audiophile.
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When using XLR connectors be aware that Japanese audio manufacturers use a different configuration for pin for ground.
So if using say a US made pre-amp with a Japanese amp you need to make sure they are using the same pins for ground. Accuphase amps have a selector for this.
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Rogue Audio has tube preamps with both RCA and XLR outputs. I have the RP-7 that has two sets of each, and I believe the RP-9 has the same. I am quite pleased with sound quality achieved with my RP-7 and my Odyssey monobloc solid state amplifiers.
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Spatial Audio Lab Raven Preampr Has some of each.
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I have not owned a single ended tubed preamp that did not produce unwanted noise over the cabling. I made the switch to an ARC preamp and was able to put balanced cables in all the way through from DAC to amp. Best move I ever made to significantly reduce noise and hash. Now I have a black background. If there are single end tubed preamps that are quiet, I certainly didn't have any luck finding them like some others have.
YMMV
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I use XRL when ever possible. I find better sound than with RCA
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@billstevenson a tube preamp can be differentially balanced and even be direct coupled.
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I always use an XLR connection because, in my experience, the sound is better (with volume matched) than the unbalanced outputs.
If the design is truly balanced, the higher output level from XLR can generally contribute to better sound (again, when volume matched) due to a higher SNR and lower noise floor in terms of THD+N. Apart from the well-known benefit of better noise rejection, handling the signal path separately for + and - significantly reduces crosstalk (see below).
The only potential adverse impact is that the output impedance of the XLR connection might be 2-3 times high. If you have an amplifier with low input impedance, such as a valve amp, you might run into impedance matching issue.
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RCA or XLR preamp? If you have a power amplifier with balanced IN, surely the preamp with XLR in-out would be good choice.
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When I had an all Aesthetix system I used XLR cabling. Fast forward to current day and my complete Conrad Johnson system, as all CJ gear, is single ended. I have no issues with noise and the sound is fabulous. My cabling is all Audience Front Row.
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I think people who like balanced enjoy plugging in the cables more than RCA. They look really cool.
I have a Conrad Johnson gat2 preamp which does not offer balanced. by Having both balanced and unbalanced to me means they gotta spend more money duplicating circuits and I would prefer they spend even more money on one circuitry related to the unbalanced. Why spend money on stuff you're not gonna use and after all, balanced in my view relates to when you have really long cable runs which many of us do not. But they are really cool to plug-in.
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Balanced interface is superior to single ended, not matched impedance RCA (or DIN) one, because:
1) truly balanced (not pseudo) interface has common mode noise rejection, which eliminates / reduces noise between two connected devices chassis / gnds, RCA (or unbalanced DIN), transfer all noise to the signal.
2) balanced interface, originally designed for 600 Ohm driver / receiver impedance match, eliminates problem of time delayed signal reflections from original signal, thus enables long cables w/o tangible signal quality loss).
3) balancing in RCA or other single ended interconnects can be achieved by adding isolating / balancing transformers, but good performing transformer is costly.
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VAC, BAT, Atma-Sphere & Aesthetix all make tube preamps that are truly balanced. Most BAT models have only balanced inputs & outputs. My VAC has both types. Cheers,
Spencer
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+1 maxdukecapone
I own the Arik Audio Motherload XL. Balanced following the AES48 standard, also with RCA. It is a well made, beautifully sounding pre-amp. And dead quiet. I have two amps, the Atmasphere Class D (a beautiful pairing) as well as a Radu Tarta SET 45 amp. These also sound wonderful together, but a SET does not have XLR inputs (AES48 standard). My understanding is, by definition, single-ended-triode (SET) operation involves amplifying the entire signal with only one output device. A balanced circuit cannot be built this way. But I may be incorrect.
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First of all, they do not exist for tube equipment, maybe there is a hybrid out there I am not aware of, but for all practical purposes anything with XLR connections is going to be solid state.
@billstevenson This statement is false. You might be interested to know that the first balanced line preamp offered to high end audio was the Atma-Sphere MP-1, which we still make. It has an all-tube signal path. FWIW, balanced line equipment first appeared in the 1950s, although back then output transformers were used to produce the balanced inputs and outputs. Our MP-1 is transformerless- we patented a method of direct-coupling instead.
When using XLR connectors be aware that Japanese audio manufacturers use a different configuration for pin for ground.
@toronto416 Its more likely they have pin 2 of the XLR wired as inverting and pin 3 non-inverting (which is opposite of US products). In all countries pin 1 is always ground.
The only potential adverse impact is that the output impedance of the XLR connection might be 2-3 times high. If you have an amplifier with low input impedance, such as a valve amp, you might run into impedance matching issue.
@lanx0003 Usually XLR outputs have considerably lower output impedance than RCA outputs. Its typical in a balanced line setup to see input impedances as low as 600 Ohms (which most modern opamps can drive) although in high end audio input impedances can be 10K to 100K. Our tube preamps can drive 600 Ohms no worries.
balanced in my view relates to when you have really long cable runs which many of us do not.
@emergingsoul The reason to use a balanced connection should be to eliminate ground loops and cable artifact. A proper (AES48) balanced connection will do that. Its worth noting that a lot of 'high end audio' balanced equipment does not support AES48 even though it's balanced. The benefit is there even if the cable is only 6" long.
My understanding is, by definition, single-ended-triode (SET) operation involves amplifying the entire signal with only one output device. A balanced circuit cannot be built this way. But I may be incorrect.
@dseltz Actually an SET has a differential input (but isn't balanced). Most of the time that input amplifies what is different (hence the name 'differential) between the RCA jack and ground. In case you're wondering, the other input to the input tube is the cathode. One way you can tell the input is differential is that if the grid and cathode are tied together there will be no amplification. If your preamp has a balanced output and has an output impedance low enough to drive the cathode, it is possible for the SET to receive and process both phases of the balanced signal. It won't be balanced, but it will be in the differential domain.
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@atmasphere
Amazing commentary you have. I bet you have a really really cool system.
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@emergingsoul I like it
I have one of our MP-1 preamps driving about 35 feet of balanced cable which connects to the amplifiers. The tonearm has a balanced connection to the preamp as does the DAC. My tuner is old school so its a single ended connection to the preamp. The speakers are Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T-3s which are 98dB 1 Watt/1 meter, 16 Ohms and flat to 20Hz.
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@atmasphere
Clearly with such a long distance for a cable, a balanced XLR cable makes sense. RCA connect going out that long is never really a good idea. Interesting speakers horns are deserving of a look next time I buy a speaker
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For the most part it's purely bragging rights. XLR connections when fully and correctly implemented can reduce noise and eliminate ground loops.
In some circumstances this can be huge, but for most of us it's minor.
Also, as others note, if you are using very long runs to other devices with truly balanced inputs this is helpful in ensuring there's no noise pickup along the way. Some devices, like some Parasound amps as an exmaple, have XLR inputs as convenience but they are not balanced inputs, so you don't get the benefit of a long run with less noise.
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To the OP, Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) makes several tubed preamps. Most of their models are solely balanced. Heck, "Balanced" is even in their brand name. However, the model VK-80 has two balanced inputs and three RCA inputs as well as balanced and RCA outputs. If you are looking to buy a used preamp, their model VK-33SE is the predecessor to the VK-80 and has the exact same inputs/outputs. I owned the VK-33SE and can speak for its sonic excellence as well as build quality. I made a step up in the BAT product line and now have the VK-90. Highly recommended as a brand of excellence in all regards.
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Back to the Spatial Audio Lab Raven tube Preamp it is fully balanced and dead quiet. If you don’t need a lot of output power their suite (mono’s & pre) punch far above their cost. Like wow….Ahyho…
Years ago I was yacking with Mr. Internet, Kevin Deal (he does know his stuff) and he said on the RCA/XLR question that component build quality is what matters.
Recently I swapped in/out RCA/XLR cables from source to pre and from pre to monos. My data set of one could hear no difference. As for my build quality, that’s another matter. Lifetime guarantee? Who’s lifetime?
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To drop noise floor, I prefer balanced.
For checking out tube amps including flea watt which usually have a higher noise floor, I’m indifferent. I’m mostly concerned with the sonic profile offered by tube amplification
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I think people who like balanced enjoy plugging in the cables more than RCA. They look really cool.
@emergingsoul , ever since I was in preschool I have been fascinated by balanced circuits and the effect that they had on my audio gear; therefore at recess I would always sneak out to the nearby audio store to check out how much better the truly balanced circuits sounded than the single ended.
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The short answer to your question is, it is not a good idea to base your decision on which preamp to buy solely on the basis of balanced outputs. First of all, they do not exist for tube equipment, maybe there is a hybrid out there I am not aware of, but for all practical purposes anything with XLR connections is going to be solid state.
????????
@billstevenson , the Cary SLP05 is a tube preamp that features a truly balanced circuit, and I am sure that there are plenty of others.
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Just because you have balanced input and out puts does not mean the unit is full balanced! A very large part of the pre amp market is not fully balanced. Even though they have the connections.
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Just because you have balanced input and out puts does not mean the unit is full balanced! A very large part of the pre amp market is not fully balanced. Even though they have the connections.
True, @68pete , but I bet that almost every manufacturer that puts a piece of gear out with a truly balanced circuit comes out and says so in the owner's manual.
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First, as always, thanks to "atmasphere" for his input.
I would add that there are a number of considerations to address when buying a preamplifier. Connectivity being only one. Your system arrangement and placement of components is another important part. A good standard practice is to keep loudspeaker cables as short as practically possible. That leaves you with the interconnects. Any well designed & engineered single-ended preamplifier with a low output impedance (~200 ohms) should be capable of driving long runs of interconnecting cable. Choosing an interconnect cable shouldn't be left to chance.
For several years I used 30' runs between my preamp and my mono block amps with no hum or any other issue. My current arrangement in a new home is much different and my interconnects have stayed the same, but I just shortened them to about a meter in length. My mono block amps do not have balanced connectivity. If they had I may have tried both single ended & balanced interconnects especially if the amps were truly of a balanced design.
I would encourage you to home demo any preamplifier that you are considering before you purchase. Preamplifiers are a very important component in all things hi-fi. Afterall, it's all about the sound.
Happy hunting
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The reason to use a balanced connection should be to eliminate ground loops and cable artifact.
I'd argue that noise reduction is the primary benefit of truly balanced circuits, which can offer high CMMR.
A proper (AES48) balanced connection will do that. Its worth noting that a lot of 'high end audio' balanced equipment does not support AES48 even though it's balanced.
Balanced equipment that isn't AES compliant isn't necessarily "improper," it's just different. For example, the balanced ARC gear isn't AES compliant, yet using the balanced connections yields improvement that you can measure and hear.
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@68pete "Just because you have balanced input and out puts does not mean the unit is full balanced!” +1
XLR isn’t only balancing solution possible! I designed “balanced interconnect” by adding out and in fully isolating ground transformers, typ 50Ohm unbal. <=> 600Ohm bal. systems with RCA/DIN unbalanced outs and ins with excellent results!
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"it is not a good idea to base your decision on which preamp to buy solely on the basis of balanced outputs. First of all, they do not exist for tube equipment"
Perhaps some clarification regarding Balanced Tube Line-Preamps is in order...
I am currently running a Balanced Tube Line-Preamp (Audio Research Ref 6SE ) into a Balance SS Amp (Ayre V5). My understanding is BOTH boxes are fully-balanced (that is, they are not simply using XLR connectors, with single-ended circuitry). The cables are XLR terminated (High Fidelity Cables).
From the ARC marketing brochure: the 6SE is a fully-balanced, Class-A design with zero feedback."
If the hifi lore is true, the founding-fathers of both companies, William Zane Johnson (-2011) at Audio Research and Charlie Hanson (-2017) at Ayre strongly preferred designing balanced circuits for their equipment.
With that said, both boxes have single-ended connections as well to appeal to a broader marked. Why? Many sources are single-ended (ex. my Zest phono-pre is single ended output only, so the cable going into the ARC line-pre must be single ended).
Bottom line... Yes, you can buy a high-SQ Balanced Tube Line-Preamp that also has single-ended connections.
(my apologies if this was covered by prior replies, as I currently do not have enough time to read the full string)
Happy Hunting!
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Will someone explain fully balanced.
Ground loops can exist even with a balanced connection. You may have to lift pin one.
Tubes or solid state can be balanced it just depends on how many tubes you want to use or if you want transformers.
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To the OP, Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) makes several tubed preamps. Most of their models are solely balanced. Heck, "Balanced" is even in their brand name.
@mammothguy54 You might be interested to know that one of the founders of BAT, Steve Bednarski, was a customer of ours before BAT, and owned one of the first production Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamps.
Years ago I was yacking with Mr. Internet, Kevin Deal (he does know his stuff) and he said on the RCA/XLR question that component build quality is what matters.
Recently I swapped in/out RCA/XLR cables from source to pre and from pre to monos. My data set of one could hear no difference.
@wsrrsw If the balanced equipment doesn’t support AES48 you may well have heard no difference or even a degradation compared to the RCA connection.
I’d argue that noise reduction is the primary benefit of truly balanced circuits, which can offer high CMMR.
@cleeds Unless it doesn’t... I’ve seen some (shall we say) sophomoric ’balanced’ products offered in high end audio that had almost no CMRR at all. -Almost as if the designer didn’t understand what that Common Mode Rejection was all about.
Balanced equipment that isn’t AES compliant isn’t necessarily "improper," it’s just different. For example, the balanced ARC gear isn’t AES compliant, yet using the balanced connections yields improvement that you can measure and hear.
This is true. But you’ll hear cable differences, the system will be subject to ground loop possibility and you won’t be able to drive long cables. These problems were solved over 70 years ago! Imagine a recording studio where you may have 20 different audio devices connected together (although usually not all in the recording chain at one time). If you have a ground loop buzz it could take weeks to sort it out! Ground loops are an audio menace many audiophiles have dealt with; AES48 prevents that happening.
Imagine not having to worry if an interconnect cable is going to sound right- just plug and play with no worries. That too is a benefit of balanced lines if done right (usually you have to support being able to drive a 600 Ohm load).
I designed “balanced interconnect” by adding out and in fully isolating ground transformers, typ 50Ohm unbal. <=> 600Ohm bal. systems with RCA/DIN unbalanced outs and ins with excellent results!
@westcoastaudiophile +1 The venerable Ampex 351 tape machines (which were used to record a lot of the RCA Living Stereo catalog) were internally single-ended but used input and output transformers to interface with balanced connections.
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... I’ve seen some (shall we say) sophomoric ’balanced’ products offered in high end audio that had almost no CMRR at all ...
That's not surprising - there's quite a bit of mediocre audio equipment on the market. But to argue that balanced components that do not observe the AES spec are somehow "improper" is misguided. They can still offer potential advantages over single-ended components, including improved CMRR.
... you’ll hear cable differences, the system will be subject to ground loop possibility and you won’t be able to drive long cables ...
I'm not having those problems with my mostly ARC system, which is not AES compliant.
As an aside, I'd wager there are balanced, AES compliant components on the market that are easily bettered by some single-ended gear. As is often the case, the implementation is as critical as the topology or technology.
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Balanced is only good if you prefer less noise.
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A word of caution. Just because there’s an XLR connection does not mean it is a truly balanced circuit. I’ve seen many implementations where it’s actually a single ended circuit transmitted via XLR connectors.
@rwwear — is that sarcasm?
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@atmasphere Had to look up supporting AES48 and found this. Thank you! Go to the head of the class. Heck, you could teach it! I don’t know if the RCA or XLR’s outputs support AES48 in the Raven Pre? I don’t think Don Sachas/Lynn Olson who designed the Raven preamp hang around on Agon so I don’t think a comment will be forthcoming.
While I absolutely appreciate it; the advanced technology of audio isn’t something I ever wished to delve into. I just want to bliss out.
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"With that said, both boxes have single-ended connections as well to appeal to a broader marked. Why? Many sources are single-ended (ex. my Zest phono-pre is single ended output only, so the cable going into the ARC line-pre must be single ended)."
Another reason for RCA and fully balanced XLR outputs might be for subwoofers. If the two sets of output jacks (XLR and RCA, respectively) are in parallel- meaning they both output the same audio signal, they can be used for connection to multiple amplifiers or an amplifier and a pair of mono subwoofers. My XLR outputs can connect to my amps XLR inputs and RCS outputs to my pair of subs.
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Another reason for RCA and fully balanced XLR outputs might be for subwoofers. If the two sets of output jacks (XLR and RCA, respectively) are in parallel- meaning they both output the same audio signal, they can be used for connection to multiple amplifiers or an amplifier and a pair of mono subwoofers. My XLR outputs can connect to my amps XLR inputs and RCS outputs to my pair of subs.
I am not running my sub at the moment; however that's the way i ran it out of my SLP 05. I used the balanced in from my Marantz SA10 and the balanced out to my Cary V-12 and ran the sub from the RCAs out of my SLP05. The quality of the sub I was using left a lot to be desired, but it worked fine.
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@Jpan Could be.... but it's true.
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A word of caution. Just because there’s an XLR connection does not mean it is a truly balanced circuit. I’ve seen many implementations where it’s actually a single ended circuit transmitted via XLR connectors.
@jpan , if the manufacturer clearly states that a piece of gear is truly balanced, I am willing to take his word for it.
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If your preamp is not balanced, it might start sliding and fall of the shelf so I would always go with a balanced one
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@riie
Of course, that depends on how level your shelf is
LOL
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