Best Bang for the Buck Upgrade

I am a believer in buy the most speaker you can afford

Network player

I was going to say speakers, but your last sentence tells me that you have a nice connection with them. The comment that you don’t think you’ve maxed out their potential indicates to me that you suspect that better amplification might be the ticket.

As our member soix would ask at this point, What sort of sonic signature is pleasing to you? What are you looking to hear that you’re not yet hearing?

If you can answer that question, and if the inference about you liking the speakers is correct, then some other amplification might be the path for upgrade.

That said, the DAC might be bettered, too. Again, it would depend on what you seek to hear. 

@mofojo:

As our member soix would ask at this point, What sort of sonic signature is pleasing to you? What are you looking to hear that you’re not yet hearing?

If you can answer that question, and if the inference about you liking the speakers is correct, then some other amplification might be the path for upgrade.

+1

I've seen comments on the forum asserting that upgrading amplification is not a way to gain major improvements but having just experienced the biggest improvement ever in my system after upgrading my integrated, I can't agree. It's become clear that my speakers are much better than I ever realized. If you like your speakers, I'd also suggest you seriously consider upgrading your amp as one possible path forward. 

I'd look at a pair of nice subwoofers and some basic room treatments, if you don't have any, yet.

Given the speaker quality and you like them. Probably the DAC… it will improve the transport sound quality and set you up when you do go to streaming… today streaming can equal or exceed the SQ of a transport.

Long term improving systems are typically done by choosing the first component that will give you a big boost… and upgrade it to the next level… then bring up the other components. So first DAC, then integrated amp ~$10K new… Streamer ~$5K… then your system would be at a whole new level, taking advantage of your speakers.  Assuming each choice carefully made.

Is is a tough one. You have a very nice system already. I hate to say it but since everything is well sorted you have no choice but to change loudspeakers to get to the next level. It's going to stretch your budget to get to the next step.

@hilde45 beat me to it. It really depends on what sonic improvements you’re looking for. I think you’ve got some really good speakers, and the fact that you seem to connect well with them, well, that speaks volumes to me because that ain’t always the case. Not familiar with your amp, but if I’m you and with your budget, I’d get a Denafrips Pontus ll DAC and and Innuos Zen Mk3 streamer/server and a Qobuz subscription. Load all your CDs into the Zen and enjoy not only all your music from your chair but get exposure to worlds of music you’d never have otherwise heard. Seriously, being able to access an unlimited library of music, much of it in hi res, has brought me more enjoyment than any equipment upgrade I’ve ever made. My math says doing this will still leave you with around $5k left over, and with that I’d add a couple good subs, which will take you to a MUCH higher level not only in bass but in imaging and significant expansion of soundstage.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

Would you consider spending $500 on a Black Ice Audio

Foz SS-X Sound Stage Expander?

Nice system!  Assuming your room is not an acoustic disaster in need of major treatments, I would look at replacing your transport/DAC with something like the Luxman D-03x CD player.  You also might consider a power conditioner.

Really nice speakers and amp. Maybe invest in a Umik 1 and download REW, do some measurements and see if you could improve your room with treatments or  DSP. If you want to try streaming a network player.

as usual i support the wisdom of @soix asking the key question... what are the specific improvements sought?

hard to travel with purpose without specifying the destination...

OP here. 
 

@soix ,

improvements sought are I guess more articulation of mid bass although I think a lot of that is my room. Cymbals sounding “better” although I think a lot of that is the recordings.

@sgordon1 ,

yeah that looks like a cool little device. Would definitely consider something like that. I have always liked Jolida products especially for the money. They just don’t put out bad sounding products IME. 
 

I have a JL F113 that I have been procrastinating to send in to get fixed. Will do that soon. So will eventually have the bass taken care of although a 2nd 3rd sub would be fun but this is in the main living room now and I don’t think I could get away with that. 
 

Yeah just brainstorming really. Not unhappy with what I have , I just think like a lot of you looking for better. 
 

Used pair of Focal Sopra 2s sound pretty nice but sometimes you just don’t know what you got and are disappointed. 
 

new dac? Yeah the Denefrips are interesting. I have not heard a ladder dac yet but am really keen to. 
 

as far streaming right now I am happy with cd as I probably listen to 50 cds most of the time. To get streaming right and the internet right I’m convinced it takes a lot of cash for a small improvement. My Cambridge transport brought a descent noticeable improvement over my Bluesound to the same Dac. 

Your speakers and amp are a pretty good match. If you decide to replace one of them you may end up having to replace the other as well if you don't obtain another good match.

I would concentrate on the room. GIK and Vicoustic might offer free analysis. Search the forums for referrals and suggestions. Room treatment can be effective and attractive.

 It is essential for changes, improvements.

Enjoy the ride.

@mofojo Are you in your own house, and plan to be there for the foreseeable future?

If yes, then address the power. Get it right.

Panel (inclusive) through to the wall outlets (inclusive); including dedicated grounds / a sub panel, etc.etc. Your budget will cover all of this.

This will result in tremendous dividends and benefits for your current system as well as any component / system related changes you make going forward.

@oregon 

Yes room correction is on my radar. I can only do so much in this shared area without putting the foot down😀. I know there are some better looking stuff that can be done without a big argument. Big ole bass traps in the corners is probably out. Big glass slider behind the seating position. Next stop is buy a thick sliding curtain for that. 
 

@david_ten 

i am planning on addressing the electrical. I am right next to the panel now a room over. I have not however thought about dedicated ground. I don’t even really know how that’s done? Big pole in the ground? 
 

thanks

To improve the sound of what you already have I would get a power conditioner. Get a used Audience unit for about $4k and you can upgrade it as you go a long. When I added a conditioner to my system, it was like a veil was removed from the music. All the instruments sounded more like instruments. Blacker background and better defined soundstage. 

It seems like you actually really like your system but are still looking for that next step - I can very much relate. I recently added a 2nd JL sub (placed to the rear of but not directly behind the primary listening position). I’m in a similar situation as you - stereo in the family room. Didn’t think I could get away with it either but went for it. Clearly the biggest improvement I’ve had so far. I don’t understand how this works but the sound is much much improved over the entire frequency range, more space between all instruments but the biggest improvement was the soundstage. Not subtle at all - like there is a 3-D band playing in my room. Really stunning what a 2nd sub can do. 

I would start with dinner and a TWO nice bottles of wine.

I’d move from there to a second dinner if need be and possibly a male or female escort. Just depends on how set in her ways the wife is.

THEN fix the room, it is 50% of the sound and 1/10th cost to fix. Besides it might make her happy for once, sometimes that’s all it takes.. :-) 3k tops.

Take a few quid and treat yourself to a dance lesson or two.. Put on a G-string and go roller blading.

Buy some chickens..

Re-Roof the outdoor speakers and air the tires.. There Big ones.. :-)

Subs, subs, subs. Added an SVS 4000 just because I acquired it on the cheap and 2 years later I have 3. In my experience nothing has changed my listening pleasure more than adding subs. Every time. Good luck with your search. Ain't it fun?

i owned 1008... get rid of Pioneer soon... you need an ATC 50... or at least Klipsch rf-7

the source is also no good ... but that's later

I recommend the top models Ayon 10 or 5 CD 

if you are happy with your turntable --if you have one--  or other front end, try replacing stock RCA phono sockets for WBT NextGen silver and convert RCA plugs on your front end IC cable(s) to ETI research silver link RCA for a startling uplift in information transmission. Other similarly designed solid silver pin RCA's may give similar results. Not tried all WBT, liking ETI.

+1 @djones51 

@mofojo I went to see a photo of your room but couldn't find it. Audio in a shared space is tough.

After learning how to measure room reflections and SPL curves, I cannot imagine making major changes in some areas without some estimation about what is happening in the room when it's optimized. In other words, I could not have optimized my room without some iterative listening-measuring-positioning work. And without that work, more equipment would risk time-wasting and money-wasting ventures.

That said, power improvements can lower your noise floor, which would be good, regardless of those acoustic measurements. Unless, you already have pretty clean power. If you search back over threads about power, you will find people realizing that thousands spent on power products didn't help because they had quieter, cleaner power than they realized. It's not clear to me how one can assess the level of noise in one's electrical system without a professional. If anyone knows, I'm all ears.

Subwoofers do bring so much to the party if you can integrate them with your system and room well, even though your speakers are almost full range.

Room treatments, are a good suggestion.

Getting your power right is also a good call but this is very dependant on your own situation as to how much benefit you will get.

I would also reccomend you look at isolation for you components. Decoupling is the way to go. Speakers and source components benefit the most. I'm using a mix of isoacoustics, stillpoints and black ravioli in my system. I would reccomend black ravioli if you are starting from scratch for most components but speakers and turntables do like something springy like Townshend or isoacoustics.

Once all that is sorted you will start to get good benefits from well sorted cabling lots of options for DIY here.

Finally don't ignore tweaks such as contact enhancers, fuses rfi/emi control and ground plane reference voltage.

If you want some immediate noticeable improvements get black ravioli big pads for your source and DAC. They will lower the noise floor giving you more details improved soundstage and better bass and tone.

Judging from your system, I see no mention of a turntable. If it were me, I'd throw the money at a nice turntable from maybe Avid or Origin Live, along with a nice tubed phono preamp like a Tavish design Adagio. 

" Bang for the Buck "

B 4 any component upgrade, or speaker replacement ( last resort ), I  suggest that you decouple your speakers from the floor. This will eliminate, or minimize, the vibrations going from speakers into the floor and reflecting back into their cabinents. 

If you do this, it may clean up the sound and tighten the speakers bass. Try using Herbies or Sorbothane pads. I`ve done this, and it was like I had a new pair of speakers.

After decoupling, your sound may benefit from room treatments.

Best bang, $340 Duelund/Mundorf Ultra Loudspeaker Purifiers by Audioman58. 

Biwire?

Tube amp in lieu of hybrid?

It's a 'system' so changing one thing is just a part  of the bang...

Improving your power to the system ( I use and recomend Puritan Audio PSM136 or PSM156) will  upgrade your source and amplification in one swell foop. I have dedicated lines and PSM1136 still made a big difference in timbre, sooundstaging and dynamic impact. As davidten and others recomended, no matter how your audio journey unfolds, getting the power right is foundational.

I knew you were going to say top end and mid bass! It's always the case IDK why, but subs can't fix the midbass and while often recordings are often to blame for the top end I've found after my last round of speakers that a few companies are getting it right. The tweeter in the salon 2 is one, but you would need twice the power for those. The Kef Blades have an amazing tweeter and manage the midbass transition with just a little toe in. I upgraded my speakers after 25 years of being flogged so tbh you will probably get more fun just from moving the system to the long wall and play around. You already have a complimentary system.

Most people still don't understand digital room correction, or will not even try it.

I dare you to put in a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 room correction system in your already excellent system, run it and set it up properly, use any minor DSP equalization for other peaks as you choose, and then seriously listen to it A/B and blind with someone else running it.

Of course you may be too familiar (and like) the current sound and recognize it. Ask audio folks who don't know the system.

It was the single thing that made my system (and the room) far better, and very audibly easy to hear. I'd never get rid of it.

Unless you have the perfect room and speakers I doubt any single piece of upstream electronics you can buy will make anything close to the positive difference you'll hear with the room correction unit.

Good luck figuring it out and have fun. Congrats on the bonus!

Step 1 - 2 Subwoofers. Properly integrated, subs will improve any system.

I would suggest the REL T series. Use the high level inputs from your amp for easy integration.

Will leave you plenty of money left over for Step 2, a new DAC/Streamer.

I would spend money on DAC if that is your main source of music.

Room Treatments.

Hello,

Whatever you can get a better deal on used out of a DAC or an integrated. I would replace the DAC first especially since you are using a transport. You have really great speakers. When you replace the DAC with something of that caliber and price you will be amazed. The biggest reason people hear such a big sonic change when they upgrade the integrated is because of the preamp section in the integrated. This is why I prefer separates. You buy an amp that is good enough to push the speakers well. As you upgrade the preamp you get a really jump in sound. Plus, if you are running all digital you can run a killer DAC on a good amp especially because these DAC/streaming companies have figured out to adjust the volume from the chip and get great results. I still prefer a preamp with analog inputs even if I am running all digital setup. I run a nice vinyl system so I need analog system. That’s why I like the Lumin P1. It’s a preamp/ DAC Streamer. I just listened to this awesome piece of gear on a 20 year old amp pushing KEF blades. Pure harmony. 
I also love the sound of the Ayre QX-5 DAC with the Network/ streamer option. 
Another reason I prefer separates is you can upgrade individual pieces of gear and if one thing has become obsolete like a DAC you can replace it. I do know that some companies like MAC and NAD have cards to make them semi future proof. 

Fix your sub and add 1-3 more of the same sub.  Add room treatments.  Get a dedicated power line.  Add a streamer.  Go to dinner and drinks and then to some live music events.  Take dance lessons.  Stay overnight somewhere an hour or two from home.

Yeah would be pretty pricey to add more JL subs! I think they are like 4K a piece for the F113 now. Don’t think I can get away with more subs with the wife. Maybe 1 more. 🤔
 

Thanks guys lots of stuff to consider. 

A user above mentions "silver link RCA for a startling uplift in information transmission. " Can anyone confirm this? Silver RCA plugs and sockets making a big diff??

JL Audio F110 are $4k. The F113 is not like $6k. Prices are insane. 

mlavigne posted a link to FUNK AUDIO - Home . I certainly would like to hear these!

Always in any system (unless you use an external clock, then clock cables.)

1. AC cables

2 good isolation devices

Best wishes

Man that Funk stuff is gorgeous!  Would love to hear it

Room treatments.

I have a cd player that was considered pretty good 20 years ago, but using the digital out to a new relatively cheap new dac made big improvements in sound.

Yeah New DAC is being considered. Really interested in a Ladder Dac to see what all the fuss is about. I do like the Burson Composer at least as much as the RME I had. 

Nice speakers.

While they aren't part of the TAD lineup, they sure look solid-Andrew Jones design? quality build/parts.

They deserve to be well into the room for optimum performance, along with appropriate room treatment-diffusion/damping. 

Another placement option:

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_calculators.php

Just a suggestion, not for every room. 

I'd spend your money on a more substantial DAC. I'm a Denafrips fan

After that , consider a major amp upgrade. Subs can always improve any setup.

They do say Tad Laboratories on the back of them.

Amps confuse me. Once they measure well it’s more of a different flavor and preference. For example I just sold a Micromega M100. Nice sounding amp but I far prefer the A1008 which was a 6 grand integrated in its day. Not sure how far up the ladder I would need to go to get an appreciable improvement. The Pass Labs stuff does intrigue me as well as the Ayre stuff. I just always buy based on reviews basically. I have no intention of buying new so feel like a creep using dealers to listen to their setups when they are trying to make a living. 

I do have a 6 ft glass slider behind the seating position. Next step for sure is to get a nice thick sliding curtain for it. I duct taped a heavy blanket up there for a test and it for sure made a difference for the better. 

Without a doubt, the Best Bang for the buck is $349 for High Fidelity Cables NPS 1260! Even only applying it to the phono IC, the improvement in SQ is stunning.

Hard to imagine but HFC is introducing NPS Q45T saying it is twice as effective.

Boy, do I believe these guys. Ordering some when it comes out this Tuesday.

The little I applied of the old stuff resulted in an amazing increase in “realness”.

Every record now is more gripping than ever! Can’t wait for the new.

It is hard to imagine better B for the B.