Interesting posts so far. I’ve been wondering the same as the OP. I’m hoping we get feedback from someone who did A/B test on some of the highly regarded streamers like Antipodes, Innuous, Aurender etc.
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digital to digital: USB to AES/EBU or I2s or...
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t sounds like what I need to do to optimize my streaming system is
1. Hardwire my streamer
2. Get a linear power supply
3. Invest in an ethernet switch
4. Consider a digital to digital converter
Digital to digital converter ?
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Ted Smith of PS Audio fame. (Created the DirectStream Dac) when asked:
Ted … would a powered USB hub connected to a linear power supply address the USB noise issue?
It will help compared to the typical noisy USB supplies in computers and the wall wart USB hub supplies. You only want the DS on the USB hub with a linear supply and you want to use a shorter USB cable there (6’ or whatever, not 15’.)
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Thank you, all, for the great constructive responses. It has been quite an education, clarifying many things and raising new questions as my understanding of the topic grows.
It sounds like what I need to do to optimize my streaming system is
1. Hardwire my streamer
2. Get a linear power supply
3. Invest in an ethernet switch
4. Consider a digital to digital converter
Do I have that right, and did I prioritize/sequence them correctly?
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Anyone still using (still available?) an Elac, Discovery? I use mine hardwired to a Mac AirPort Express wirelessly connected to another AirPort that's hardwired to my router. Have a BNC to RCA Coax connection (various better cables) to a Line Magnetic DAC. The result is shocking great. For $1K is a wonderful piece. Comes with a abbreviated version of Roon too with a lifetime subscription. Couldn't be happier with the product and features, actual high performance AND value.
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I am also looking for streamer to hook up to my Esoteric K-03XD dac. I bet usb is the best connection than digital Coaxial and Optical. Am I correct?
I am looking at " LUMIN U2 Mini Digital Transport/Streamer cost abt US$2000" and the "Ifi Zen Stream with its iPower Elite cost abt US$700"
Both are great products. Ifi Zen with its iPower Elite / other LPS will give a better sounding streamer than without. I dont know how it compares to the amazing Lumin U2 which is a new product from Lumin replac the U1.
I read several reports of users having problems using the Ifi Zen streamer. The properietory softwares is unstable.
Any read or encounter such?
Basically I wld want this streamer to connect to my K-03XD dac to stream Tidal and also from my NAS.
Any input on those 2 is greatly appreciated.
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Pre-owned BRYSTON as a prime choice.
Sure …. Budgets ALWAYS matter big time ..,, BUT ….You do not have to buy new,
You start gettting stepped-up audio performance improvement delineation at an approx.> $3000-and- up MSRP price-point . That’s where their superior parts, and their high-end performance linear power supplies (either built-in or external) and their top-end build quality manifests itself. And it exhibits itself further in that they offer later high trade-in / upgrade values )
(Hint: it’s the budget and mid level models that form the huge chunk of the forum audio performance warts and perceived further upgrading wants)
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@juanmanuelfangioii
You have a truly outstanding DAC in the Sim 680D. It compares quite well with anything near it’s price range in my view. However, If you want to take it’s performance to an even higher level, try auditioning it with an outboard streamer (obviously well above something like the Node 2 and the like). I took my Auralic Aries G2 to a Sim dealer and we did this exact comparison. Even the dealer (doesn’t sell Auralic) had to admit that it very substantially improved things. That experience was enlightening to me.
Best,
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@badgerdms to get back to your question I used MacBook Pro prior to my Bricasti M5. Mac sounded very good but Bricasti was much improved.
Prior = Mesh Router-Fmc-Optical cable- Fmc- MacBook- AQ Jitterbug- AQ Coffee Usb- Dac
Now= Mesh Router- Fmc- Optical cable- Fmc- M5- AQ Coffee usb- Dac
Adding a good quality dual outlet LPS to the Fmc’s added noticeable improvement as well.
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Indeed, what clock in what component is best suited. Which power supply is best equipped to reject noise. Everything matters. Ive tried to minimize steps and where there is a component necessary I try to buy the best available within a certain price band. High quality cables…power supplies…all within the realities of my listening environment.
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It was when I heard the difference between the Mac and the Innuos Zenith Mk3 and the differences between usb cables when I truly began to understand that a streamer was sending an analog representation of a digital wavestream and that all of the analog variables applied to digital streaming.
@ghasley I have always believed that differences in digital outputs must be because of something in the time domain.
Noise and frequency response are easily measured and these streamers tend to measure ruler flat and noise tends to be down something like 100dB below the main tone...so inaudible.
But time domain....that's where we get jitter from optical....we can of course measure jitter. The other thing in the time domain is the wave form. We see R2R resistor ladder DACs producing a much prettier sine wave than Delta Sigma DACs. We see DACs where their slower filter produces a nicer sine wave than their fast/sharp filter.
We see DACs being ranked based on THD & Noise...but THD and noise are so low already, who cares if SINAD is 120 or 95? Only Audio Science Review people care...and that's measuring an ANALOG output stage.
So a digital out on a streamer? These suckers measure incredible with THD, SNR, and Frequency Response. Which leads me to the belief that the real issue is in the time domain and very few people are paying attention to the time domain...and that is why your DAC and its inputs are so important.
When people say they like their streamers coaxial but not not USB, this is one example IMO. Some people like Zen Stream coaxial but not USB....maybe this has to do with the streamer, the DAC, or both.
I draw the same conclusions with speakers cables and crossover parts. Things can be smeared in the time domain. Well known technical reviewers like Brent Butterworth still like to measure speaker cables using frequency response...but are IMO using the wrong tool.
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Sure @ghasley but I will take the road to anywhere else and pass on Damascus. The Moon by Simaudio 680D did it for me. Mind2 in this DAC is outstanding. Enlightenment comes in many ways and until you try you will never know.
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@seanheis1
I apologize if I gave you the impression that I hadn’t heard for myself. I started streaming years ago and was in the Mac mini is good enough camp. It was when I heard the difference between the Mac and the Innuos Zenith Mk3 and the differences between usb cables when I truly began to understand that a streamer was sending an analog representation of a digital wavestream and that all of the analog variables applied to digital streaming.
I was satisfied with the Innuos until I heard the next level of streaming solutions.
@juanmanuelfangioii
Properly utilized fiber improves things in many cases, however, I did not find it favorable. There are many roads to Damascus huh? Best.
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Need to have a clean signal also. No noise in the digital stream from modem all the way through the digital chain.
Go fiber and clean the data of all the noise, will improve even a weak streamer/bridge.
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I was in your camp until I heard the difference.
@ghasley I'm in the camp that you have to hear for yourself before discrediting or promoting. Otherwise, I would discredit First Watt due to relatively high noise and distortion and go with Hypex Ncore or Emotiva.
Also, there has to be synergy with the DAC and the different connections....AES, USB, Optical, Coaxial, etc.
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@seanheis1
When you experience a really good streamer personally, in a system you know well, it will make you feel like youve been spinning your wheels for a long time while you believed that part of your system was on solid ground. When you experience a truly great streamer, others will sound to various degrees broken. I was in your camp until I heard the difference. All too often, people neglect to recognize that digital output over a cable is an analog waveform representation. You would too. Best.
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You got this wrong bud! They all are consumer grade computers not designed and optimized for streaming audio. You get streaming functionality but they sound nothing like a dedicated streamer, not even remotely close.
@lalitk if you're hearing differences between streamers (digital out) where things aren't even remotely close, your ears are much better than mine ;-)
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“Does a Mac Mini sound better than a Dell? Does a Dell sound better than a HP? They are all streamers so lots of possible comparisons. ”
@seanheis1
You got this wrong bud! They all are consumer grade computers not designed and optimized for streaming audio. You get streaming functionality but they sound nothing like a dedicated streamer, not even remotely close.
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I've been enjoying a Roon Nucleus Plus server, USB into my PS Audio DirectStream DAC now for several years and highly recommend the Roon branded server. Besides the sound quality, the server's Roon software is installed at the factory and I don't do much of anything from the time I did the basic setup (my Roon login credentials, setup the paths for my purchased music and where to store the Roon backups, etc.) I have a USB connected external hard drive for my purchased music and the Roon backups and periodically shut down the Roon server and connect the hard drive to a Dell laptop to back it up to the cloud...for safe keeping.
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In general, yes a Mac Mini sounds better than Dell and HP. A good dedicated streamer sounds better than a Mac Mini.
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Why do you never read about Streamer A vs Streamer B ? Cause noboby
can hear a difference.
this is overly simplistic, and incorrect
different streamers sound different because they manage noise, clocking, power supply, and physical isolation differently - the sonic difference can be quite noticeable to quite subtle to insignificant... depending on the network, cabling, and of course the quality of system downstream to resolve those differences
Does a Mac Mini sound better than a Dell? Does a Dell sound better than a HP? They are all streamers so lots of possible comparisons.
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@tksteingraber Out of curiosity, what did you have before the M5?
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i think a reasonable assumption as to why the lumin u2 mini sounds superior (’more saturated sound, cleaner treble, etc. ’) than a node, as a streamer source, is because the lumin manages noise management/filtering much better, and allows for an upsampled digital feed so that the downstream dac can do its job better in putting the analog music together better...
the good sounding zenstream (with clean external power supply) does very well on the first aspect, don’t think it does the second
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I’ve been very happy with my Cambridge Audio 851N. Discomuntinued but you can find them for about a grand. I also just bought a Cambridge Evo 75 for a little second system in the living room. Very happy with the streaming and their Streammagic ap is reliable and not bad. I stream Qobuz and run a NAS with ripped files.
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I’ve been very happy with my Cambridge Audio 851N. Discomuntinued but you can find them for about a grand. I also just bought a Cambridge Evo 75 for a little second system in the living room. Very happy with the streaming and their Streammagic ap is reliable and not bad. I stream Qobuz and run a NAS with ripped files.
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I currently/recently have the same interest in getting a streamer only to existing dac, coming from the Bluesound. I did a head to head comparison between the Bluesound and a Lumin u2 mini. Every part of me wanted to say, these will be identical or close to identical and it’s not worth the extra cash outlay. But to my chagrin, the Lumin was audibly better in terms of “tonal saturation” (whatever that means. It went from grey and hard to analog color sound), slightly cleaner treble and more open, smooth sound. Basically it decreased digititis almost completely. I believe they are priced at $2400. The app was excellent and IMO superior to Bluesound OS.
I couldn’t stomach the cost at this time however so I am about to try the ifi zen. We will see…
good luck. Check out Lumin if you have the funds. It was really great and left me wishing I could justify the spend.
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I used Bryston BDP-3 checks all those boxes I think. I also agree with previous post that a mesh network with a hardwired node at you rig has worked well for me.
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Since you have the Terminator Plus, I’d certainly talk to Alvin Chee at Vinshine…..pretty sure he’d recommend a Denafrips DDC. As long as you bypass the internal DAC, you might be satisfied with the new Node (130). I am with a Pontus II, though I have purchased a Denafrips Iris DDC that I’ll hook up in a couple of weeks….hopefully will take things to an even higher level
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Hello,
I really love the Bluos app. I wish they would come out with a full size big brother to the NODE with LPS and balanced/ ABS/EBU outputs. Until they do that I will suggest a Lumin U1mini since they just upgraded it. If you have a few more bucks then just go for the U2mini. It is just a really great streamer. The app works very well too. Later you can add a LPS to upgrade the performance. See if you have a dealer in your area who will let you do an in home demo. If you are in the Chicagoland area Holm Audio in Woodridge, IL lets you try before you buy. If you are not from that area you can check out the website to find a local retailer. If you are looking for a little smaller footprint then TEAC makes one too using the same app either under the TEAC APP or the Lumin App. I hope this helps.
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The SMSL SD-9 is a excellent streamer with USB and I2S outputs and connects to the internet wired or wireless. I use the USB output to a USB to I2S adapter to my Musician Pegasus DAC. You can use Bubble UPnP to connect your Tidal and Qobuz accounts to stream through the SD-9. All this for $399
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I have a zen blue and I love it. Easy to us and great sound.
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I’m using a Cambridge Audio CXNV2
and it’s great- it works - upgrading is easy-
I’m hard wired to the internet router
sometimes the signal is awesome
most of the time the signal is awful!
this morning real early I was listening to a broadcast and the system never sounded so good!
the moral- poor signal poor sound quality!
So if you are an internet listener don’t spend a fortune
since the quality of the source and the quality of the signal will
be critical
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Whenever I see posts for advice on specific streaming hardware to purchase, the amazing variety of advice given makes me think a whole lot of people believe their streaming setups are providing great sound quality ... But with so many differing and positive experiences reported, how would novice know where to begin. I just know I'd be totally confused.
Yes, it's easy to be confused by it all, in part because the vocabulary isn't really standardized. Then there's the mountain of silly misinformation, such as this gem from @jays_audio_lab on another thread, supposedly quoting a guy with a $2.5 million system and room:
I have been communicating with a top audio industry expert who brought to my attention something quite interesting. I am copying and pasting -
"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) .
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Whenever I see posts for advice on specific streaming hardware to purchase, the amazing variety of advice given makes me think a whole lot of people believe their streaming setups are providing great sound quality. Not here to dispute that, I take reported positive experience at face value.
But with so many differing and positive experiences reported, how would novice know where to begin. I just know I'd be totally confused. I like what Rich said in post, nice comparison of differing topologies, this is where I'm at presently, still experimenting after nearly ten years streaming. Optimizing within each of these topologies is critical in understanding potential of each.
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I'm a big proponent of keeping the ROON computer completely separate from your audio chain.
Here's what I'm using...
Roon Nucleus+ wired LAN
Stack Link II wired LAN, usb out to Matrix SPDIF/2 out with i2s to PS Audio DirectStream
About as clean of a sound as you can get and significant improvement over connecting the Nucleus+ to the Matrix via USB.
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First question you have to ask is roon or no roon? If you use roon, Aurender isn't an option.
In the lower price range I am very happy with the Allo USBridge signature with Shanti power supply. Performs well above it's price point. It now resides in my second system.
I have an Innous Zenity Mk3 which sounds great. My only complaint is it is not simple to move back and forth between Roon and content stored on the system.
Jerry
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it’s not clear which Node you have. If it is not then latest NODE 130, note that almost everyone agrees it sounds noticeably better than the 2i. I found that both the Node 2i and the NODE 130 can both be improved in a way that sounds obviously better with an external power supply. Inwas so happy with the improvement to my 2i that the British Fidelity Audio PSU made to it that I waited until FA had the fitment sorted for their upgrades and ordered my NODE from them with both the PSU module and a clock board installed by them. It arrived in LA two weeks after ordering and sounded so good that when I later was auditioning new speakers, the speakers I purchased sounded as good at home as they had in the showroom through a $2500 streaming DAC. It also wasn’t that expensive compared to buying a NODE in LA as I was not charged VAT and laid know CA sales tax. I now use it to stream through a Gustard X26 pro DAC. As a streamer only, I am fully satisfied, especially as I really enjoy the Bluesound operating system.
And if you will be listening to music on your wofe’s
system, you will definitely enjoy it more if you change out the PSU. I am not a DIY person, but even I was able to install the FA PSU replacement module in 20 minutes. Whether you also get a FA linear PSU or another quality one is up to you.
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The node is pretty hard to beat functionality wise. When you take it a step further with a linear power supply it’s even harder performance wise. I’m all for getting the best of the best that I can afford for my system, but with some simple and inexpensive upgrades, it’s a really nice streaming option. However, if the money is burning a hole in your pocket to get a new high end streamer, then have at it. I’ve found a great place to be with my node at this point. Good luck.
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The Rose audio rs250 would be good but it has a Dac... so to bad. The Rose radio selections are great too.
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Sorry, I meant Auralic Aries G1, or more properly, now the G1.1
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@ghasley @richtruss
Thank you both for your posts. After hearing the improvements from a high quality Ethernet switch and filters, I no longer consider these devices as accessories. Ethernet switch with LPS (if needed), noise filter and LAN cables are must have components for any high resolution digital streaming system.
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@richtruss glad to see you post here. I am a happy owner of a Network Acoustics Rubicon switch, a Network Acoustics Muon cable and Muon filter. I had a very nice setup with great sound and ordered the Network Acoustics trio fully expecting to send it all back within the trial period, but I was committed to being open minded and give it a try.
Let me just say that many of us don’t realize what we are hearing and what it sounds like when we are NOT hearing noise. I’m an unapologetic fan of the Network Acoustics product line, I kept all three and appreciate that a manufacturer made the thankless and risky move to hop into the mosh pit that Audiogon forums can sometimes be.
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“For the best result, it sounds like I need to figure out a way to hardwire (I think that’s the correct term) the streamer to my modem.”
@cowhorn
That’s correct. Especially if you’re going to drop $$$$ on a high end streamer like Aries G2. Don’t get discouraged, it’s doable with a mesh network extenders. Just go to Amazon and search for 2-Pack which includes 1 Router (hardwired to your modem) & 1 Satellite (hardwired to your streamer).
This would be a first step to high quality streaming. Even your Node will improve with wired network.
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@daledeee1 I did the same thing, and the Teddy Pardo seemed unnecessarily expensive.
@jjss49
different streamers sound different because they manage noise, clocking, power supply, and physical isolation differently - the sonic difference can be quite noticeable to quite subtle to insignificant... depending on the network, cabling, and of course the quality of system downstream to resolve those differences
As usual, this is right on the money. Too often, people either fire off a quick answer like -- "It's just 1's and 0's" or "It will be better because it's more expensive, good reviews, etc."
The questions folks on forums have to ask themselves when considering new equipment is:
(a) Is my system good enough and not-bottlenecked-elsewhere such that this upgrade will be noticeable (e.g., Can I avoid confirmation bias?)?
and
(b) Will I be able to do a trial basis with the new unit and do an A/B comparison to test things out?
If one is unwilling to answer those questions, then one would be more honest with oneself if they just admitted they just want to buy the new unit for the fun or looks or bragging rights, etc. Because without the above control factors, sound improvement is not being earnestly interrogated.
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Thank you, all, for the great suggestions, helpful responses, and clarification of my apparent misuse of the term "balanced". To those illuminati who were confused and/or offended by my error, I offer my most sincere apology.
Streaming is quite new to me. I have been away from the hobby for almost 30 years (the Thiels are proof, purchased new by me back in the late 90s), and I have found the learning curve to be steep for my analog mind. I will do my best to choose my terms much more carefully in the future. Lesson learned.
For the best result, it sounds like I need to figure out a way to hardwire (I think that's the correct term) the streamer to my modem.
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I have the Bluesound Node 2i. I put a new power supply in it for $130. I have richer fuller bass and an open airier sound. This board also has reliability improvements. Also added an aftermarket power cord. Anything you can do to lower the noise floor is desirable.
The power supply is made by Pd Creative. Teddy Pardo makes them as well but the part costs as much as the Bluesound.
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Another vote for an Auralic Aries G2 here. Ticks all the OP requirements.
Excellent quality,
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+1 @andyrowe
I have 3 systems in my home, so when I went for Bluesound I bought a Vault2 and two Node2. Both the Vault and one of the Nodes died at separate times during updates. I have spent many frustrating hours dealing with Bluesound that I won’t recapitulate here. I ultimately purchased a Melco N100 which has been extremely reliable and sound’s terrific. Bluesound is a good starting place for streaming for audiophiles that are unsure if streaming will fit their needs but people shouldn’t view it as some kind of audio jewel that will be passed on to their heirs
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