Get the PC out of the playback chain.
Streamed music sounds awful in my system and I don't know why ....
cd's spun in a transport are so much more satisfying. Streamed content lacks body, bass, and correct timbre.
DAC is the Moon 780 driven by Moon's transport with Audience Front Row loom. Streamed source originates from Windows Media Player platform into the same DAC 780 via CAT 6 cable hardwired into a Spectrum router.
If I wanted to upgrade the streaming experience, where would I start ?
Rest of system -Shindo Giscours pre-amp, VAC Phi 300 amp, Purist speaker cables feeding Wilson Sophia 3's.
Thanks for any guidance.
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You need a real high end streamer. Your other equipment is excellent. I used to run a Moon 650 DAC / CD player. I streamed from PCs and MACs for years to get nowhere near CD quality until I bought a high quality streamer. My first was a Auralic Aries G2. But I recommend an Aurender. I would recommend an Aurender streamer of comparable or greater value to your DAC. So my first choice would be a Aurender W20SE or if you want to conserve money an N20 (a compromise). But the Moon 780 is very revealing… which is why your streaming does not sound great. You have a $500 player attached to a $17K DAC. Your DAC deserves a W20SE. |
For the moment, basically everyone agrees...that never happens around here. Yes, get a good streamer...stream Qobuz or both Qobuz & Tidal. Don't bother with Spotify, Apple. If user experience is important to you seriously consider Roon before choosing a streamer. Watch this for a good explanation. Cheers, Spencer |
@dr-john Give ROON a try and put the ROON Core computer in another room. I have my ROON Core server (a $500 PC) behind my office door next to the router. I have set up the computer to automatically boot up at 8AM and shut down at 2:30AM each day. I can stream only during those hours (need some sleep too). If you do not have Ethernet near your stereo, then you can use a $75-$150 PowerLine adapter to stream the music bits on the copper electrical wiring of your home. This will get your music to your SimAudio Mind2 DAC on a wired connection. Which I prefer over WiFi. I use the PowerLine method to connect my Livingroom and bedroom gear (ROON READY Endpoints) to my ROON Core. The office system is a direct Ethernet connection. Both methods of connection, PowerLine and direct, sound great. The only caveat being that the ROON Core should be on the non-PowerLine side of the home network. This was an issue for me when playing hi-res streams from ROON. When I moved my $500 Core server to the faster side of the network all hi-res content was streamed perfectly to the ROON endpoints. If you do decide to try what I am recommending, then the very best sound for your DAC will likely be on USB. I am assuming the Mind2 streams on Ethernet. If I am correct, then I would recommend a Sonore OpticalRendu. There are a few cheap ways to convert the Ethernet to Fibre Optical. You then take the fibre into the OpticalRendu and from the OpticalRendu you go by USB into your DAC. The glass of the Fibre cable will kill most of the analog noise that can get into your DAC. So, who cares how internally noisy the Core server is or where it is located. BTW - your DAC is ROON READY. the highest level of compatibility. Mind2 via Ethernet streaming and the OpticalRendu is also ROON READY via USB streaming.
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If you are going with a dedicated streamer get one with room correction software built in like the NAD C658 (dirac) or the Paradigm PW Link (ARC). You can do things with room correction that you can not do with a preamp or a DAC. It will not do miracles in a bad room but in a decent or good room it is excellent. |
@kota1 If you go with ROON or JRiver you can have the very best room correction in the world. That is software-based convolution filter that runs on the ROON (or JRvier) server. Only negative is that it only works for streaming, not turntables, tuners, or other analog pieces. This is where an audio gear-based DSP solution would work, though it would not be as powerful as the Convolution filter. The Convolution filter is generated by using third party DSP software. The Convolution filter is built to a defined standard interface that ROON and JRiver speak. Analogous to the ROON RATT protocol for audio gear.
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many times its the built in streamer.
We have upgraded clients to our 432Evos ervers via rheir ultra high quality usb output which usually gives you the warmth and body you are seeking the 432Evo servers empoly unique software tunning which creates a more analog like presentation. Dave and Troy Audio intellect nj us importers 432EVO music servers |
@yyzsantabarbara , thanks, I didn’t know that about either roon or jriver, never used convolution and if you primarily stream, great. |
@audiotroy calling BS as I can hear no difference streaming from my Innuos Statement and the Mind2 in my 680D. Crystal freaking clear on matter the streaming source, Using USB, RCA, AES, XLR all sound clear and tone in neutral. I would use the Mind2 software or Roon and get the Windows Media out of the chain as Mr @lalitk said. Have you done any firm wear updates on your 780 through the Mind2 software? Sorry peddlers bother me. |
Dr John, Try Qobuz, even on a laptop feeding a DAC via USB should be decent enough. You can chase improvements by throwing a lot of money at the problem, and you should see some minor benefits. A very good CD player is going to sound more musically complete and satisfying in my experience. I do stream music because it is so convenient, and the results can be very good indeed. Comparing albums streamed with same albums on my CD player sounds more complete on CD though. |
So you didn’t tell us the streaming source, streaming format, or player settings. You didn’t mention what you’ve done to isolate ground and noise. Kinda like asking about your vinyl playback setup and saying "33 1/ rpm"
I'd be very wary about WMP in any serious chain,,,, older versions didnt even support USB high res audio media format 2.. the absolute basics Learn ye about digital! |
Kill your PC, almost anything will be an improvement. I’m only one step ahead of you. I ran a stripped and optimized Windows laptop streaming Tidal. I upgraded the USB cables 3 times and had a noticeable difference. I recently switched the laptop for a Pro Ject Streambox Ultra II, it was a major improvement. Now consider that the people above me have listed some significantly better equipment and they are experiencing better results than me ! Small Green computer, Audio Troy are solid people that know their stuff. Also in retrospect I have a $2000 Shiit DAC and the Project is $800. Then ad 1 audiophile power cable for the DAC and a linear power supply for the Project and a $300 USB cable , your at $4K ! If I had a do over I’d get a complete unit in the $5K range. FWIW, I have a nice Thorens TT and a good cartridge, and I enjoy the SQ of streamed music as much, and it’s a lot more convenient. Happy Listening, Mike B. |
@OP As already told by many, obviously your issue is streaming from your PC, you need a separate streamer. However you don't need to pay 5k or more for it as many recommend. Take a look at my streaming setup in my system. Not counting the DAC, I have only around 2k in it including cables. And it sounds just great. As good as my vinyl rig and cd player, just a slightly different presentation for each. However I did spend a good sum of money building the proper listening room, so I don't have to buy top of the line equipment or accessories to make up for the shortcomings of the listening environment. Foundation first. |
You’re getting a wide variety of advice here, some good and some bad. with the price of the rest of your system, it would be a gigantic waste to keep an ordinary PC in the chain. I’ve found that Roon running on a separate dedicated server (like a Nucleus or NUC) feeding the player through Ethernet and the player feeding the DAC through USB is best. AND turn off the Roon DSP and volume control in the Roon settings. Makes a huge difference. A quality Ethernet cable and USB cable help a lot, too. |
@dr-john You can use a computer to stream with amazing quality. The easier way is to buy a dedicated audio server (really a computer) as mentioned by many others on this thread and be done with. If you are a bit more technically oriented, then you can easily get a CHEAP computer based streaming system setup as I described previously (I did not dive deep in the description). Most people on Audiogon go the dedicated audio server way and that is a great choice for most. Though this is not the way I do it. BTW - I was also curious about the elephant in the room. Why use the Windows media server app if you have MIND2? |
Streaming is so joyful, convenient. Initially when I started streaming music, the sound quality is not comparable to cds/SACD. Definitely. But after I upgraded to a better Router/MESH/Network Switch for my wifi, it improves tremendously. |
I agree with @juanmanuelfangioii, save your money. The main problem is that you're not using the MiND app to access and playback your music over the 780D. You'll probably need to set up file sharing on the PC that has your music library. Then the MiND app can access, index, and stream those files directly to the DAC.
I took a look at the 780D manual and it mentions none of this. Did you buy from a dealer? They should've helped set this up for you. |
dr-john before spending any big $$, I would
If you are not happy with the result: forum members have provided quite a few inputs how to invest your money in additional gear. BTW, the Quobuz player app will detect your DAC. So you are able to stream directly from the app. Please report back, I'm curious how your final setup will look like. Cheers, eagledriver
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If his PC is that bad, he needs a serious upgrade. Either the router is somehow failing at that point and allowing some sort of back feed, which I don't see possible, or the PC itself is a piece 'o' CHIT. I am constantly amazed at how people are willing to pay tens and hundreds of thousands of $ for audio equipment and then put in some sort of junker PC into the mix. I don't even have my case sides installed and I get '0' interference from the PC. A Simple test of TURNING OFF the PC might prove if that is the source of the problem. I can stream multiple sources and I get as good of sound quality, from the PC and more convenient than even my dedicated Streamer. But it is what I work with 16 hours a day also. And convenience is not sound quality. I would start replacing Less expensive and easier-to-try components like that MINIMAL CAT6 cable. An acceptable CAT 7 or 8 Cable can' be acquired for chump change. Also if it is the cable, try replacing it with ANYTHING. Even lesser quality should show a marked difference if it is the cable causing the problem. |
Something else I would caution people on. Reports like this one from ZDNet magazine. How to convert your home's old TV cabling into powerful Ethernet lines | ZDNET |
You can modify the pc diy route as some above have mentioned, you can also go lower, medium grade off the shelf streamer, and then there are top of line streamers. My choice is top of line streamer budget allowing. Streams should be virtually indistinguishable from cd over transport or cd rips, you'll know you've arrived when this is your experience. |
a few points. While i agree that the problems re likely with WMP and the PC, i want to re-iterate where the problems likely lie. Not with the simple fact that you are using a PC -- but with two things:
1. The configuration settings, some of which may be very hard to optimize 2. With the electrical (ground) noise Both of these can be ficed, but most wont have either the expertise or the inclination to do so. On a mac you can use bitperfect and the configuration issues are solved. Gond isolation is more of a problem, although on battery power my macbookpro was more or less fine. Many have suggested Roon. I love roon, and also hate roon. Note that you will still have the ground noise problem if you connect your roon PC directly to your DAC.
Roon has also just made major changes that i find a real problem. They discontinued support for most operating systems aside form the very atest - making most of my units obsolete even as casual remotes. They also have made it so that you cannot play your own local library unless you have an active broadband internet connection. You heard me right. So yea, its great, but its also nto the most customer friendly company on earth. This is all very new BTW. Beware. I do think that software solutions liek Roon or audirvahna are fare more modern and long-term than some costly streamer-in-a box (which is almost certainly a raspberry Pi computer inside a fancy box with a good power supply and isolation).
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This has nothing to do with bits. The bits arrive just fine. The problem is ground noise and pre-processing of the bits. Most media players do digital manipulatino of the signal to put it on the media bus, and then spit it out. Most also do some level manipulation, including digital volume control, which rob you of resolution. As numbers are multiplied (which is how volume control is achieved) there are remainders nad truncation's. You can very esily get down into 10-12 bits effective resolution. It matters not if its a $10,000 gaming PC or a 10 year old core duo. Same problem exists. |
@itsjustme The raise a number of great points: Basically it's all about the noise from a computer. Fighting is possible but for those who computers aren't their passion, it's not worth the fight. Get a low power single-purpose device with a simple OS and w/o a million processes running that aren't in support of audio(aka. a streamer). Not to quibble but the other side of this statement:
That's so they can give you all the fantastic metadata, artist links, biographies etc. For any victims who've ripped CDs in iTunes and lost album art...well Roon is your savior. I'm sure if enough people complain about it, Roon will provide an option to turn off internet connection required, but IMHE, it's a benefit even when listening to my own library. More often than not, their metadata and supplements are better than what's on the files. YMMV Cheers, Spencer |
On the quibble, i understand that they enhance music with metadata (however, its not as great as they claim - not i'm a user since pretty much day #1) but there is no enhancement when my music does not play at all. Sure, give me the full experience with internet, but don't block the core of my system. I have already complained, as have many more, and note they slammed the door on it ever changing. So the answer as you say is "enough people"....apparently not enough today. So buyer beware. Anyway - to the OP. Figure out the exact configuration that you are streaming. Its often hard ot find in a PC. Next, isolate. Even my roon core is run on a custom, linear, low noise power supply of my own design. beyond most peole's ability, but buying one is just a few $100.
Don't just react to "PC bad". PC not bad, PC just opens pandora's box. |
Excellent sounding streaming can be achieved with your PC in the right circumstances. If using USB, make sure your DAC has a good USB implementation and has Galvanic isolation. I’m streaming through Roon and Tidal/Qobuz and upsampling PCM as High as 1024X DSD with my Audio Holo May KTE DAC and HQPlayer. Even without using upsampling, it sounds excellent. You don’t necessarily need a dedicated streamer to achieve excellent streaming results! People who are telling you the PC is bad just haven't hear a well setup PC that had good results. |
“Excellent sounding streaming can be achieved with your PC” What dedicated streamer have you auditioned and compared with your PC to arrive at your subjective opinion? |
What you hear is correct. CD sounds better, as does watching a Blu-ray movie from Disc compared to streaming the movie in UHD or 4K, there is no comparison due to bandwidth limitations from the streaming companies and of course our internet service. Streaming is convenient and it ends there. CD, Vinyl is the way to go if you want the best sound possible, and I fully know how CD had been put down by the Magazines after 20 years saying their systems reviews using gear were SOTA and their sources were CDs. Streaming is #1 nowadays and that won't change, any physical format lags behind in sales be it music or Video but that does not make them the best source material. |
This thread has gotten a bit off track. I have been an early adopter of digital since it’s inception… sad, I know… thirty + years of disappointment. Digital has been improving, especially in the last fifteen to twenty years. Today with careful choice of equipment Streaming >= CD or stored files and can = vinyl. I am not saying a $10K digital end will sound better than a $100K analog end. I have talked about it elsewhere, but very generally at the same price level, plus or minus 20%. My system does. You can see my systems under my UserID Like all other things in high end audio your results are going to depend on your component choices. Qobuz uses lossless compression. Meaning your streamer unpacks the files and buffers them to be identical to a locally read file. Like every thing in high end audio, better components sound better. I am able to directly compare on my system between the two streaming / CD or other combinations and they sound identical.
The place to start is thinking about equal investments in each component. Streamer, DAC, preamp, amp, phono stage, and turntable, if you have analog. My streamer and amp a bit more expensive that my other components. |
Poor PC gets blamed. I recently built a Windows 11 based player/streamer and play my music through that. There’s probably tons of background services running on OP’s machine that might be degrading his playback. Simple things like switching off leds on motherboard and not running any other process except music playback is what a PC should do. All the prebuilt music players like Aurender, Lumin etc only play music and that is how a PC should be “purpose” built. Fidelizer optimizes the services even further. Also don’t use WMP. Use a different software like Foobar2000, Audirvana, etc with AISO or WASAPI driver. If you cannot do this with your existing PC, then get a nice streamer and be done. But folks need to stop blaming the PC. |