What does 90% of the Absolute Best Sound Cost?

@mattsca 

Your question has an infinite number of answers. My brother is completely happy listening to all his music from the 1/4” speakers in his phone.  My good friend Dan still has the stereo he bought when we were in college (the early seventies) and he’s still just as happy with the sound. Everyone is so different. Me,  I’ve been buying, selling, and swapping hifi since the seventies and have I had a good (to my ears) system. 
We’re all different.

P.S.S. - Apologies for belaboring the reply but, if there is one thing that is critically important in my opinion, it's this. When choosing speakers, first consider your listening practices. If you sit in the same chair, and listen to your music, certain speakers like Magnepan's can deliver exceptional results.  However, if you plan to have your system in an environment where you will be moving around and/or other people will be listening, you must consider speakers that deliver good performance off axis, vertically and horizontally. Electrostatic speakers like Magnepans, Martin Logan's, et al can be magnificent if you are positioned in a very finite space.  On the other hand, Source Point speakers like the MoFi 888, nearly all KEF Uni-Q speakers, Fyne Audio, Tannoy, and more offer much wider listening area with excellent quality.  My Magnepans are EXCEPTIONAL on axis but, 6 feet in any direction and they suck. My KEF R7's sound amazing throughout the listening room. Very consistent but perhaps, not as good as the Magnepans in the "sweet spot".

Matt C

I agree that your system depends upon your budget and your ears.  If you feel your system needs improvement then work on that aspect. Maybe you need newer equipment, bettter cables or a subwoofer?  It all depends on how happy you are with your system.

I have spent in today dollars 75k and love my system, yet I am always looking to make improvements.

good luck and have fun

P.S. After decades of motorsports my tinnitus is constant and I often find myself wondering if another $20k, $40k, or more would be appreciated. 

I recall not long ago, a friend was over and we were watching something on my 65" 4K ($550) television.  He said there are great advances being made in displays and an 8K OLED television would blow me away. I laughed as I removed my fairly strong prescription glasses and said, "it may be 8K but my vision is 720p!"

My hearing is still really great, despite the tinnitus which I have learned to listen through. Yet, I strongly believe going much further in my audiophile pursuits will only improve my bragging rights (to what objective?), not my experience.  Food for thought.

Matt C

I love this question for a variety of reasons.  As many have pointed out, room contributes significantly to the listening experience.  A pair of $160k Magico M6 speakers in a room that cannot accomodate them with appropriate spacing, treatments, room volume, ambient sound isolation, etc. would be a waste of money.  So, first you must consider your listening environment as it will largely dictate your speaker choices. Conversely, electronics are largely a matter of budget, listening preferences (neutrality, warmth, tonal accuracy, adherance to the artist's intentions, etc.).  With speakers, bigger and/or more expensive isn't always better. With electronics, more expensive typically delivers better sound albeit with a diminishing return as price increases.

I've been a stereophile/audiophile since 1983 when a friend played the first CD I'd ever heard in his Ford Escort.  The CD was Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits and I've been hooked ever since.  I'd be embarrassed to disclose the amount of money I've spent (never "invested" - don't ever think this hobby/addiction is an investment!) over the decades. But, I am more passionate now about music and high fidelity than I've ever been in my 59 years.  

One thing I've learned is that this hobby is rife with opinions, confirmation bias and bad or ill advised suggestions.  Fortunately, I recognized that early on and have generally accepted the opinions of well-regarded publications and reviewers with a grain of skepticism, by no means disrespecting their assertions yet, understanding the various pressures and biases that guide the industry.

If you've indulged my ramble to this point, I'll get to answering your question. At least to the extent that my experience and judgement will be useful.  Last year, I decided to do a complete refresh of my system with a budget of not more than $40k.  I spent many hours reading and watching equipment reviews to determine the best value in the industry for components, speakers and accessories.  My choices are by no means going to suit everyone but, they do represent the best in class in their respective price points.  I'll add to that, I have come to appreciate the magnificence and utility of digital room compensation yet, still have a deep love for pure analog playback.

 Bottom line, I have the best sounding system of my personal 40+ years experience for $22,367 (MSRP excluding taxes and shipping). Note: I was able to purchase some items at a discount but listed MSRP for this exercise. Here's the kit:

- Rega Planar 6 turntable with Rega Ania Pro MC Cartridge ($2,895 from UpscaleAudio.com)

- NAD M66 Masters DAC/Streamer/Pre-Amp MM/MC Phone Stage ($5,499 from Crutchfield.com)

- NAD M23 Masters Stereo Power Amplifier ($3,749 from Crutchfield.com)

- Brennan B2 CD Ripper, Hard disk Jukebox with ~320 CD's in the library all ripped in FLAC ($700 from thebrennan.com - B2 no longer available but B3 is)

- Furman ELITE15i Linear Filtering AC Power Conditioner ($250 from Amazon.com)

- KEF R7 Meta speakers (from KEF local dealer $5,000 per pair)

- 2 (each)  KEF KC92 Powered Subwoofers (from KEF local dealer, $2,000 each)

- XLR Interconnects from Worlds Best Cables (WBC-PRO-Quad with Neutrik Connectors from Amazon.com $44 a pair)

- WORLDS BEST CABLES 12 Foot Ultimate - 9 AWG - Ultra-Pure OFC - Premium Audiophile HiFi Bi-Wire Speaker Cable Pair with Eminence Gold Banana Plugs & Carbon Tweed Jacket ($230 from Amazon.com)

This combination delivers stunning accuracy, soundstage and power. I would however describe the result as impressive but clinical as none of the components have much personality. They simply reproduce the music in an uncolored delivery.

The NAD M66 has both Moving Magnet and Moving Coil phono pre-amp with a pure analog signal path for purists.  I enjoy using it with vinyl but inevitably find the DSP processed signal path more pleasing.  The M66 includes Dirac Live room compensation as well as Dirac Live Bass compensation which make a huge improvement on the influences of my 24'x18'x8' (W, D, H) listening room. The ability to sample a dozen different points in the room with a microphone and process that data to eliminate (mostly) poor room audio qualities, resonances and reflections while balancing both subwoofers is incredibly powerful.  For what it's worth, Dirac room compensation is a remarkable technology. The M66 allows multiple profiles to be saved so you can have individual ones for different speakers (I also run Magnepan's on occasion) or listening conditions (movies, music, low volume/late night frequency curve, etc.).

In short, I'd say electronics are the start of a great audio experience. Digital signal processing and DIrac can make a meaningful difference in your listening experience, overcoming limitations of your listening environment and helping speakers sound as intended.  If I were to win the lottery, I wouldn't change a thing on the pre-amp, amplifier side of things but would consider a pair of Focal Sopra No. 2 speakers or KEF Blade 2 Metas.  That's it!

Best of luck with your musical journey!

Matt C

Pleasanton, CA

There is no "absolute best sound" if you (generally) believe that everything can change the sound. There will always be something new and more expensive and people will believe it would sound better. 

@avanti1960 my room is roughly 15x24 with a ceiling not quite 7 feet. One back corner is clipped from the rectangle and I have four 3" square posts to deal with. So, while I have some significant challenges working the room, I am dealing with a nearfield listening environment - love seat ~2/3 back, speakers ~2.5 feet from front and side walls in a pretty good equilateral triangle to the sweet spot. Rack is centered but set back - I like looking at my gear:

Dual CS 529
Eversolo A6
McIntosh C53 w the DA2
McIntosh MC312
B&W 702 S3
Good, not excellent, interconnects
Panamax M4315-PRO
Low-cost acoustic squares and bass traps in the primary places

I know I can upgrade my power conditioner. But other than that, I am working on the room.

It costs the money YOU CAN AFFORD to spend that will allow YOU to enjoy listening to music! It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks because it's YOUR MONEY and YOUR ENJOYMENT.

It’s not a linear equation. It is a series of simultaneous equations:

Great gear

Great room dimensions and construction

Proper speaker and listener position set-up

Proper room tuning

Commensurate cabling that extracts the best from the gear

Electronic noise reduction (black background)

The best recordings (some redbook is great, some is not so great, for instance)

Did I miss any pieces?

This is why it is difficult.

Asking the audiophile community about the absolute best sound is problematic from the outset.  Assigning a dollar figure to it precludes the majority who simply cannot afford a private jet.  What is it you're looking for?  For me, it is climbing a ladder to the best you can find and afford.  I've been doing this for decades and incremental systems in different environments.  When you talk about spending $250K for a perfect listening room I say more power to you. And build that mega mansion while you're at it.  This whole project is an incremental experience and that is the pleasure of it.  All of us remember the revelatory experience of putting a transformative piece of equipment into their setup and marveling that things could actually be like that. I could make a list, but each time it was not a matter of money. It was a matter of what you could hear that you couldn't hear before. Ultimately, with my present system, everything I did to it was jaw-dropping.  I think with all the accessories I put maybe 45K into it, from scratch after a move. Inspired by a (I hope) final move plus a windfall.  You know when you're there when you realize that what you're doing is listening to the recording and evaluating it, seemingly forgetting about the equipment. If you're at that point you can still play with your cables and room treatments for fun, but the main point is that you're happy. If your rich uncle passes away maybe you can get some 50K speakers, but remember you were happy when you were 25 and your setup let you hear the music. It's not a contest.  Just get to the point you can afford and enjoy the music. 

This is an impossible question to really answer. Too many variables to sound quality, source quality, room acoustics etc.  in general you must have quality loud speakers and an amp/preamps to drive them.  I have about $60K in my system and it’s really amazing to me at least. 

Agree with Avanti1960

i have a <$4k near field second system that is 90% of my more than 10x $  main system in their respective environments. 

but I could not replace my second system in its larger environment and be anywhere in the ballpark.

The best sound costs about 200k, I say that because that is probably an average of what professional playback equipment costs (only digital). The room is extra. 

90% costs about $100k new, not including room tuning and best record pressings.

@mattsca

After a certain point more money gets you bigger and louder scale appropriate for larger rooms. Larger rooms need much bigger speakers and amplifiers and even multiple amplifiers.

In smaller rooms with nearfield systems you can get super high quality audiophile sound for a much more reasonable price.

What size room are you talking about? 

In the end, it depends on how much obsessiveness and pathological compulsion dedication and commitment one is willing to bring to the table.

As @onhwy61 rightly pointed out, a purpose-built listening room becomes a necessity if one is to even hear the difference better gear makes. Yes that room can cost $250K+, though it doesn't have to.

I don't have a dedicated listening room and I don't want one. I sometimes listen to music 12 hours a day so I need to do something else at the same time, namely, in my case, work. That supposes, by definition, a very imperfect room, which in turn limits how much better gear I can get while still reasonably hoping to hear significant improvement. But I wouldn't last an hour a day in a dedicated listening room before I got cabin fever, so I'm more than willing to live with what I have as it lets me listen to music for another 11 hours, and at the end of the day listening to music is what I'm here for. 

Your answer: start with 100% and subtract 10%

Based on my experience over decades I'd suggest somewhere in vicinity of $100-150K retail. Costs add up quickly even with the small stuff like cabling, dedicated AC lines, room treatments. Purchasing used can bring the costs down from the retail cost I stated.

Interesting question. For the sake of discussion I'm going to use retail prices for this exercise. Obviously you could do much better by buying used equipment, which, like you, I did, but I'm trying to compare apples to apples.

The core of my system is from the mid 1990's (Krell KSA 300S, Krell KRC-2, Thiel CS6 speakers, Velodyne subwoofer). If I take the original retail prices and adjust for inflation those pieces would cost about $35,000 today. I've got several DACs, two transports, two turntables, tape decks, and other gear but I'm going to figure my total system cost with my best DAC, transport, and turntable. At retail (inflation adjusted dollars)  my total system today would have cost about around $60K. For perspecitve, my actual cost is around $25,000 (I bought most of my gear used).

I've been to three audio shows and heard dozens of high end systems. I'm pretty comfortable in saying that my system hits the 90% target of the best sound regardless of price. I've heard a couple of million dollar systems and a bunch of six figure systems and very few of them sounded significantly better than my setup. I've heard far more systems that I thought sounded great but not particularly better than my rig.

A few speakers have stood out - Von Schweikert Ultra 11 ($325k), large Acoras ($200k+), and especially MBL 101E Mk II ($90k). These systems definitely reached a level beyond what I can coax out of my system but at an astromical price. On the other hand I've heard several speakers under $25k that sounded wonderful, if not quite state of the art. One speaker that bowled me over was the Rosso Fiorintino Fiesole (around $21k). I'm looking forward to hearing other models in their line.

I'm at the stage of my life where I could afford a significant upgrade but I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm afraid that I could drop a significant amount of money and a lot of hassle on new gear without getting much benefit.

From my experience I would say that $50,000 spent today easily reaches 90% of the best sound money can buy. 

This is subjective based on room size, room acoustics, and the audiophiles ability to discern subtle differences in sound quality between brands and components,

for as you go to higher price point equipment, the absolute value of the performance/price ratio becomes smaller.  Differences perceived important to one listener may not be important to another.  That said, from my personal perspective a spend of around $75k should get to 95% of the best of the best.  If you buy preowned you can take 30% off of that spend.  To me, I believe my system is at the 95% performance level at a retail cost of around $90k and a preowned cost of about $45k.  I would have to double that spend to achieve a 2 or 3% improvement and much more because my small home and listening room would need expansion to accommodate the equipment required to achieve improvement.   My home is my limiting factor.  My weakest link now is my server/streamer where I would need to double or triple my spend.  

Trust me, folks ... it’s the room AND the power.

As to the room, I have a square, 10x9x8 converted upstairs bedroom for dedicated listening, which is an awful configuration for sound. Left untreated, the sound is absolutely horrible, and I mean "fingernails on a blackboard" horrible. Before I gave up completely or continued on the component upgrade merry-go-round, I implemented corner bass traps, rear wall absorption, and side-wall first reflection point panels. I’m very happy with the results.

As to the power, I determined that there was a lot of dirt in the lines, but dedicated lines were not feasible. So, I got items that remove line hash at various frequencies, and series mode surge protection. Those did the job ... sound clarity and headroom have improved dramatically. The neat thing is that I no longer have inconsistent listening sessions where the sound is great on one day and not so good on the next. Addressing the power issue is just as important as the room.

Of course, quality components are essential and don’t have to cost you an arm and a leg. However, failing to address room and power issues, no matter how good the components, can be fatal to the listening experience. So, before the OP goes spending a lot of dough, I think that first scoping out the listening environment is critical to good sound ultimately.

Ah, great responses.  I wish I could "like" and "laugh" at them.  Yep, this is a very subjective topic and, of course, the listening room - size, dimensions, build - is a major factor.

And I have to acknowledge that the listening experience goes beyond the bare acoustics.  I like how my equipment looks and feels. I like nice furniture and lighting.  And a bar cart with a few choice adult beverages doesn't hurt.

If you eliminate the hype, the sales pitches and the peer pressure, you'd be surprised at how good your system can sound.  Once you step outside yourself for a moment, you realize that it's all rather ephemeral and like already mentioned, relative. 

It's like all addictions in that there's that reward at first listen, and then it fails to maintain the high, and then it's on to the next hit. That's not being a lover of music.  

So, what does $50K get you? Sound that you'll enjoy or even fall in love with. The question is, will you allow it to as long as you have it, or tire of it because, reasons. 

All the best,
Nonoise

I have right at $50k in my system.  Seems like a lot, but people spend considerably more than that on pickup trucks and large SUVs. I get a lot more enjoyment out of my audio system than I do my vehicles.

I have no idea what percentage of sound quality I get compared to the ultimate system.  It sounds great to me and I don't think I need the ultimate system. 

How much to spend depends on  how much more information one can extract from the software collection (CDs, LPs, etc.). Everyone is limited by their collection and can do only so much for further improvement without running into point of diminishing returns.

My current setup cost ~$30k for my equipment based on late 90s early 2000s retail prices. Not sure how much those would be now, but that figure include only a fraction of the fortune I spent on NOS tubes! Some I brought brand new and some in the used market and paid less than the original price. There is another batch of equipment and vacuum tubes in the storage worth probably another $8-$10k.

I have the bug and there are times I think I want to make changes. Then I come across some modern recordings and my jaw hit the floor!! I can hardly find any shortcomings/faults. Very recently, I heard Mozart Piano Concerto #26 on NPR via my HD radio. I simply loved the presentation, sound, and the whole arrangement. Then I brought the CD, from Bridge Records. It was performed by Vassily Primakov, piano and Odense Symphony Orchestra conducted by Scott Yoo. I always thought I can pay a higher price for a better DAC and that improve "jitter" and other aspects But that turn out to be nonsense when listening to this CD. I have two DACs, AR DAC2 and DAC3 and both DACs played this CD remarkably well and very musical.

Another example is Haydn Cello Concerto # 2, again heard it first on NPR. Then I brought the CD, Truls Mork, cello with Norwegian Chamber Orchestra conducted by Iona Brown. Again same results. So in short, how much improvement one can get by spending more money depends on his/her software collection. Needless to say these modern recordings are much better than older recording. In my humble opinion,  the differences between a 10k system versus 30k or even 50k will be hardly noticeable with newer recordings.

This is not to say digital playback cannot be improved. You are limited by 44.1 kHz sampling rate and 16 bit word length. One can definitely improve on jitter, channel separation from 100db to 110db or higher, higher order digital/analog filters, etc. I am not saying I can hear these differences, but others may. Same goes for LPs. It is an inherently faulty system. Higher priced turntables, tone arms, cartridges etc., may be rewarding. However, one has to keep on mind about the price point of diminishing returns. Another good and rewarding investment is the listening room. Even a lower priced system can sound like a more expensive system in the right listening room. Such is life.

Problem with price comparisons is not every dollar goes to sound quality. For starters, you have to adjust for dealer and distributor markup. Then add the large overhead and marketing costs for large companies. Fancy milled cases also add a premium as do fancy flight cases and white gloves. And I suspect a markup is intentionally added for audiophiles (and reviewers) to take the product seriously.

On the other side of the coin there are products that are designed well and have low prices due to direct sales and efficient manufacturing. Take the Schiit Yddgrasil DAC. For $2,500 not only would you get "90%" of the best of digital playback but you will be hard pressed to find any DAC that surpasses it. It is a superbly engineered product with no dealer/distributor markup, no large overhead or marketing costs, and no fancy casework. All it lacks for audiophiles to take it seriously is the Audiophile Markup.

Interesting thought experiment, but as the widely divergent answers show, an impossible question to answer because the premise is flawed.
The starting place would be defining exactly what constitutes the “ absolute best sound possible.“  if it’s even possible to define that, it would likely be different for everyone. And if you could create that mythical standard, most of us on this group are probably over 60 and wouldn’t have ears to be able to discern whether it had been met or not anyway. It’s interesting to think about, however, and maybe leads to a better question which is whether you have achieved something you find really enjoyable for the money you are willing to spend.
 

@immatthewj i have seen 20K speakers at the dealer, never heard them. The most expensive ones I have probably heard was 12K. And that's 10x the price of the speaker I have. So again, don't take me seriously :)

Imagine that they sound about 12% better than 25K speakers

To be honest, @grislybutter , I cannot even imagine what a 25k speaker must sound like.  And I'll beat you to the punch, a 12.5k speaker is still beyond my comprehension.  I try to make my bucket list realistic, so a 12.5k speaker may be on it, but by the time that can ever happen, inflation will make that just another ordinary run of the mill average speaker.

@immatthewj 

 I cannot even begin to imagine how good those must sound.

Imagine that they sound about 12% better than 25K speakers

$50-$125k get really nice sound, $250K+ you are in another hemisphere

I guess it's all relative.

I am pretty sure that if I had 50k to start a new system with I could reproduce a sound that would blow me away.

But members talk about speakers that cost 50k all by themselves and I cannot even begin to imagine how good those must sound.

So, as I typed, I guess it's all relative.

I’m thinking it would be around $70k or so... $50K used. I would guess my system is at 95% and is about $150K... I’d have to double the cost to get to 98%. I just helped a friend get a system a step down... maybe 90%... it’s very subjective, obviously. $10K streamer, $10K DAC, $12K preamp, $12K amp, and $22K speakers.

@mapman The room is 90% of the deal. I've proven it to myself many times over. No matter what I spend in my living room it will never sound like my loft. A more modest system but definitely sounds better.

A lot of people spend $50K on a system that sounds like crap. but they have all the names mentioned in stereophile. And some fine looking crap. If you’re only looking at sound, not name or looks, I could put together a 90+% system for $10K.

We're talking about best sound possible from 2 channel audio, which in my opinion is able to sound very good, but is fundamentally limited by the format. 

From my perspective, and from my limited experience I'd say a carefully selected equipment setup could get you 90 percent of that potential for about five thousand dollars. This is assuming you want accurate, uncolored sound that doesn't extend too deep in into the infra-bass, and isn't trying to fill a large room with very high sound levels. 

If you want boutique sound, I have no answer. It totally depends on what sort of effect you're looking for. 

I'd say $50,000 should be able to get you direct sound from the speakers and electronics that is indistinguishable from perfect, in terms of accuracy, to the human ear (for that format.) 

The catch is I said direct sound. Excellent $50,000 systems with very wisely chosen components can all sound different. That's because perfect hasn't been defined yet in terms of dispersion and the resulting indirect room reflections. So people may still have their preferences between these systems as played in various rooms. And some people may be perfectly justified in their preference of a $2000 system over a $50,000 system because they like the directivity of the $2000 system's speakers more. 

I would ask my wife what a 50K hifi gear would get me, and I am pretty sure she would say "divorce"

It's not just equipment.  The best sound requires a dedicated custom built listening room of an appropriate size.  That could cost you $250k plus just by itself.  Spend anywhere from 100 to 200% of that sum on equipment.  90% of that sound quality could probably run $200k.  Getting the room right allows the equipment to show their true capabilities.

Depends on room size and specifics. For a smaller room the world is your oyster in that price range.   Don’t waste money paying more without getting what you have set up optimally first as needed. 

Depends on room size and specifics.  For a smaller room the world is your oyster in that price range. 

I'm with you all-the-way. Your estimates very close to my experience.