100% POLITICAL statement disguised as discourse!
Chinese DAC's
I have been looking at several DAC's trying to decide which one to put in my system. Some of those DAC's I'm looking at are built and designed in China. Without getting political I don't think trade with China will ever be the same. I hope that these engineers are able to get there products to market. It would sure be a waste of talent.
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Not just Chinese audio, recently discovered new streaming produced in Latvia, modified by US entity. Seriously considering purchasing at $3k price, sudden price increase last few day to $3500, aprox. 16.5% jump. No way I'm paying an extra $500 for nothing. And why the 16.5% increase when tariff temporarily dropped to 10%, or has that changed in the last few hours. Suppliers to our family business quoting all sorts of percentage price increases in recent weeks, price gauging, true cost of doing business or simply guessing, crazy days.
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@nonoise @freediver No this is not political. Right before I wrote the post I was going thru looking at used Holo DAC's and the news was playing on TV in the background talking about how both economies are starting to decouple from each other. |
I visited LAIV’s room at Axpona/2025 and was generally impressed by their Harmony DAC and other electronics. They are certainly well built with the latest SMD technology. Alvin at Vinshine mentioned that they have a limited pre-tariff stock in the USA-- so it would be timely to move on that if LAIV is on your radar. I’ve heard a $700 Musician DAC in a friend’s system. That one is a great value, but I was unable to A-B it to anything. The top Audio-GD R2R DAC is in transit to me. This one should be particularly interesting as an example of what can be achieved in China at a higher price point. I’ll be comparing its I2S input to an Esoteric K-01X with USB input from a Sonore Signature Rendu Deluxe with SOtM USBultra. The tariff situation is certainly unfortunate and will freeze business in the short term-- affecting also exports by US-based audio companies My guess is that it will eventually sink of its own weight. |
@brbrock Agreed. My post was in response to freediver's over the top, knee jerk response to you. It's too bad Alvin doesn't have any Tai Hang DC blockers for sale here that are pre tariff, waiting to be sold. All the best, |
The issue I’m encountering with all importers of products from tariffed countries is that if there a 20% tariff on a product, the tariff is on the product but not on the cost of doing business. Why are all this companies talking about raising their prices by said amount when the price of the item is fractions of the retail price? |
Unless I am mistaken and if anyone can shred some light that would be great but a very large (huge) number of electronic parts (transistors, capacitors, circuit boards, etc.) are made in China. These get put into electronics of all kinds (televisions, amps, pre-amps, CD players and transports, streamers, etc) and the majority of American made companies use these parts. Therefore the parts higher tariff cost will make ALL AUDIO equipment increase in price in the US. |
Study the reviews on those DACs before pulling the trigger. A lot of the "reviewers" and comments are from folks that may not be at the same level or have the same component needs as what you might run into on this site. There are FB pages with endless back and forth about how one $500 DAC compares to another, and then there's ASR where some of those DACs are top rated, but in reality have very little musicality. Not all, but many or even most fall into these categories. |
"Not political","knee jerk reaction" my arse! |
@freediver The high end audio market is a global market in which China plays a most critical role. Not just audiophiles who trade with China, but all Americans will be effected by having to pay significantly higher prices when trading with China. This issue is of great concern to all, and an absolute reality . So, why does mentioning this critical issue on this forum, an issue that effects so many (especially the high end audio industry) have to be classified as "Political Agenda?" Much like yourself, I strongly reject any type of politically based saber-rattling on this forum. However, I do not believe that those who express concern over this particular issue on this forum are advocating any kind of a politically base agenda. Hysterical overreaction and finger pointing isn’t helpful either. Happy listening. |
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I hav3 had no problems selling Denafrips dacs 2 of their new Digital engineers are from the Netherlands and cal poly tech , very smart guys better product for less money then in 2024. And so far No Tariffs I am not complaining and plenty of buyers are very satisfied . The trade war won’t last ,I think before June it will be over IMO iit is really hitting them hard ,except most electronics have only a 20% tariff for 90days which the company absorbs. |
I've got a Topping E70 Velvet DAC, cost me £350 and absolutely love it. Have compared it with my mates Audio Note 2.1x Signature DAC at circa 17 times the price of my Topping and neither of felt short changed by my Topping. I'm not saying it's better, but it's an engaging listen and I have no desire to change it. |
I’m one of @audioman58 very happy Denafrips DAC customers purchased in the past 60 days, a Venus 15th. If I look at my HiFi components they are from the US, Italy, China (Denafrips and Arendal) Although Arendal is a direct to consumer Norwegian brand. The only way to compete is to be smarter, more innovative and creative and maximize what each manufacturing location offers ( the WiiM Ultra is a classic case of this) and artificial barriers only diminish us all. |
I followed the advice of an audio buddy on AudioKarma.org, and got an SMSL C-100 (basically the SU-1 w/remote). I had a MUSES02 opamp installed in place of the OPA-1612, and added a linear regulated power supply. It has vastly improved separation and depth, and loses the digital glare. Cost was < $250 all in. |
I learned long ago when I could still hear well that electronics account for a small part of one’s sound compared to transducers and room acoustics. But like most of us I like nice things, so I have gone through many amps, preamps, CD players, etc. DACs seem like a problem solved. My SMSL DO200Pro ($400) does me fine. Even with tariffs it will still be a bargain. |
Wise post! I dont need to write anything more...
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@yoyoyaya that is correct. Also, since the tariffs apply when landed and country that has a 90 day delay, must have goods on the water by the middle to end of May to get them through customs before July 4. One of our customers (we are a manufacturer) wanted us to eat the tariffs, we declined their kind offer. |
For those who skipped Econ 101 or took it before about 1990, we now live in an inextricably interconnected world of global supply chains. The finished component relies on parts from several global sources, and those parts, semiconductors and, yes, tubes, rely on another set of supply chains for the machinery to fabricate the components and a second supply chain for the silicon, tungsten, and rare earths necessary for their fabrication. Those sources in turn rely on the manufacturers of extractive mining equipment who rely on ... and on and on it goes. Those heady 19th century days when technology amounted to coal, iron, brass and wood, and economic self-sufficiency was a possibility are long gone and so is any relevance of tariffs based on that kind of economic theory. Driving with the rear-view mirror it's called. Not surprisingly, it ends up in a crash. |
@panzrwagn +1 and nicely written. |
@panzrwagn +2! Well said. |
@panzrwagn +3. If I were to frame my posts like you do yours, I'd never have them taken down. 😄👍 All the best, |
i am very happy with my Douk Chinese tube pre-amp equalizer at a peanuts cost with 7 tones control... I am very happy with my Hidiz AP 80 pro dac+equalizer+ music files bank at a peanuts cost right now... I am very happy with my battery headphone amp Fosi for my second pair of headphone (movies documentary) at peanuts cost... I own powered Edifier low cost speakers also a Chinese product... My room acoustics and headphone modification and synergy make my system at low cost totally satisfying for my needs... I am very picky about sound quality, the reason why i concentrate on acoustics for years of experiment... China is not another planet, only a "new" player which had 5,000 years of history and engineering... My music listening is primary my optimized headphone AKG K340, German top design of the golden era, and incidentaly modified speakers in near field with acoustics room controls (Helmholtz resonators Schuman generators etc)... Acoustics rules.
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@vinylvalet @fthompson251 @nonoise Thank you. My realization of global supply chains began with a 1984 VW Jetta, engine and transmission made in Germany, tires from Brazil, Glass from the US, stereo from Japan, wheels from Italy and body built and assembled in Mexico. I made a bumper sticker for it that said, 'Made on Earth / By Humans'. Nothing much has happened in the last 40 years to change that view, except the rise in Intellectual Property as a factor in value resulting in the concept of value chains, where the metric changes from material value to intellectual value added. Audio provides any number of perfect examples of that. Anybody with a table saw and a Parts Express catalog (no offense, I actually like them) can get into the speaker business. But not just anybody can build a KEF, or a Sonus Faber, or a Wilson. Anybody can buy ESS Sabre DAC chips, case and power supply, but executing the software for the filters is a whole 'nother level of value add. Building big flat panel TVs, which the US has zero manufacturing capacity, would require licensing a ton of IP (if it were even offered) on the process of making zero-defect screens. So worse than the obsolete concept of material tariffs, the ignorance of the equally or more important value chains make these trade restrictions poorly conceived and a failure before they even begin. We gave away manufacturing decades ago, and it's not coming back, except perhaps as automated factories. We are world leaders in lots of IP areas, in medicine, biotechnology, and computers (where is nVidias real value? Their IP portfolio). Failing to invest in and protect that will truly be the loss of our last, best chance. |
@freediver "It is a COMMON PROPAGANDIST PLOY to hide political statements with platitudes..The very statements "I don't think trade with China will ever be the same. I hope that these engineers are able to get there products to market."are subtle but definite references to political based policies!"
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@mahgister : " "Wise post! And then......? |
i dont have topping dac, i own a french NOS dac and a Hidiz dac... And a very costly dac as you suggested dont couple well with low cost products... i am interested more by acoustics basic than by gear pieces...budget command and knowledge beat upgrades if not it replace it with a satisfying alternative.
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I bought my Chinese made Gustard X26 Pro on Amazon a few years back. I enjoy the clarity and soundstage I get, particularly using the I2S input. In my room it sounded better than a Chord Cutest and a similarly priced Benchmark. I just got on Amazon and looked at the prices and I don't think they have gone up on Gustard products since the tariffs. I assume you all know that you can audition a Gustard DAC at home and if you don't like it you can drop it off at Whole Foods (at least in the US) |
Spot on. That is why most of the non-US world uses the value added during its contribution to the production of an item as the basis for revenue collection. In Europe it is called a Value-Added Tax (VAT) and in Australia it is a flat 10% Goods and Services Tax (GST). For example, if I assemble a product and sell it for $1,000 I have to add 10% GST ($100) and remit the GST to the government. If the parts cost say $400 I have to pay my suppliers $40 extra for GST, but I get that back when squaring up with the government. My value add is $600 and the net tax on my contribution is $60. Every contributor wherever they are located only gets slugged for their bit! Australia’s GST applies to everything with the exception of some essentials like food. It is collected by the federal government but given to the states to spend! There is no sales tax. Private imports are normally at a 10% advantage compared with local products, because it is not worth the hassle of collecting GST on small items - around $1,000. So we actually subsidise most US imports. And we buy much more from the US than we sell to the US. Our economists have worked out that so-called ’tariffs’ ascribed to countries are actually the ratio of trade imbalance to total trade - not actual financial imposts at all. I agree that the world will never be the same again. Short term we are pleased the US banned our beef because the Chinese are now taking it all to replace US beef, and paying 40% more. Unintended consequencies indeed! |
There are two discussions on yesterday’s Weekly Update that are joined at the hip and in both instances, I think the OPs (and some of the discussants) are missing the key point that a forum like this should underscore, without rancor. First, there’s the person responsible for the "Chronos tweak at AXPONA" thread. He is beside himself that he can’t buy a novel (admittedly mysterious) product because it costs $2500. His wife would go for $1500; the poster says that if they get a US distributor, that person will hopefully tell the manufacturer that the product is "overpriced." Maybe, maybe not. The OP assumes that the (to him) exorbitant price is simply wrong and presumably exploitative without knowing anything about the decision to make the cost what it is. Even if the "reason" for the $2500 price tag is simply how much profit the manufacturer wants to realize, that’s the truth a potential purchaser has to deal with. Jayctoy needs only to decide whether the value proposition is there for him. Why does anyone waste need to their breath shouting about snake oil and PT Barnum? Either you feel the investment is worth it from a sonic standpoint or you don’t. Same thing with this "Chinese DACs" thread. It’s not clear how a global trade war is going to pan out but there will likely be an increase of the cost of Chinese goods to American consumers. Again, it’s a value proposition and opinions/discussions about that on AudiogoN ought to limit themselves to audio considerations alone. That doesn’t mean there aren’t geopolitical aspects to the story and that one’s feelings about them can’t inform one’s personal decision to buy or not. But one has to remember that the product hasn’t changed; it is what it is. What forum members can usefully ring in on is the audio quality of the Chinese product compared to non-Chinese alternatives and leave the question of value – "is it worth it at the price" – to the person considering buying the item. |
fine idea except you can be 100% assured that they use parts that are imported. As has been pointed out, the global economy is too intertwined to say the solution is to just buy American, or from whatever country you live in. Buying 100% American means you won't be buying much of anything. |
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So, should she have stocked parts for 3 months, 6 months, a year, two years worth of production? The, up until recently, stable global supply chain, means people don’t keep big inventories of parts. Real time logistics and shipping has taken care of the need to sit on large inventories. But, she should be able to plan for this, right? |
The US and EU has created the monster that is China and now it’s time to get off the smack of cheap imports. I know Manley put up their prices every year, tariffs or not, inflation. If the US debt is not paid down you’ll be taking wheelbarrows of cash to the supermarket. But you say the Green New Deal was supposed to address this! Janet Yellen stone faced lied and said printing another trillion dollars would not cause inflation. No such thing as a free (Biden)lunch. |
The problem with the value proposition is if we all know a tariff is being applied we understand we're paying an extra tax, ruins the value for me and likely many others. I don't want to pay an extra tax, especially to a gvt. I don't support. I'm laying low for the time being, not purchasing non-essentials.
As for Chinese dacs or any product/service, same as any other country, variable quality universal, politics don't play a part in my purchase decisions. You may not like China but vast majority of people benefiting from their technology/services. |
You know that's not what I said. Manley automatically increase their prices every year, my dealer is always complaining. Manley don't hold the perceived value of the Big Mc, not my taste either. So the stupid bint Eveanna has just confessed to the audiophile community that a Manley amp is mostly made by Chairman Mao and the people's army. Friends like this don't need enemies....lol |
